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Havocs with flakk and iov =200pts of fearless skyfire goodness thats still useful against ground vehicles and units

Just an FYI.

Havocs with 4x reaper autocannons will (on average) score as many hits against a flier as havocs with 4x flakk missiles at the same strength and AP, however for less points and they can move if necessary (since they are snap-shotting anyways)

In other words, don't take flakk missiles. If Havocs are going to be your primary anti-air, the autocannons are much much better.

 Lokas wrote:
Just an FYI.

Havocs with 4x reaper autocannons will (on average) score as many hits against a flier as havocs with 4x flakk missiles at the same strength and AP, however for less points and they can move if necessary (since they are snap-shotting anyways)

In other words, don't take flakk missiles. If Havocs are going to be your primary anti-air, the autocannons are much much better.

To that I say, GOOD GOING Games Workshop!! \o/ Just a piece of stellar game design right there....

I don't have my codex on me, but I thought that havocs could only take regular autocannons not the reaper variety.

Your right no reaper autocannon available and also you shouldnt have to move havocs anyway and you still have a strength 8 weapon for ground targets and if you want you can still snapfire the s8 shot at a flyer so yes while the autocannon havocs are cheaper (points wise) th flakk havocs are more versitile that i it helps compensate for bad rolls i cant snapfire for

 Lokas wrote:
Just an FYI.

Havocs with 4x reaper autocannons will (on average) score as many hits against a flier as havocs with 4x flakk missiles at the same strength and AP, however for less points and they can move if necessary (since they are snap-shotting anyways)

In other words, don't take flakk missiles. If Havocs are going to be your primary anti-air, the autocannons are much much better.

Havocs don't have reaper autocannons they have regular ones. That means skyfire missles will hit air targets TWICE as often as autocannon havocs while only costing 1.5x as much as autocannon havocs.

Whoops, that'll teach me to not double-check the codex.

Mike712 wrote:

 Lokas wrote:
Just an FYI.

Havocs with 4x reaper autocannons will (on average) score as many hits against a flier as havocs with 4x flakk missiles at the same strength and AP, however for less points and they can move if necessary (since they are snap-shotting anyways)

In other words, don't take flakk missiles. If Havocs are going to be your primary anti-air, the autocannons are much much better.

To that I say, GOOD GOING Games Workshop!! \o/ Just a piece of stellar game design right there....

for the points maybe, but no 1 squad of havocs with flakk missiles will score twice as many hits at str7 as a squad of havocs with autocannons. The big difference is that the havocs with autocannons cost 115 while the flakk missiles cost 175. Having 2 squads of autocannons brings you up to the same number of hits as the flakk but you have more wounds, can split fire and will melt rhinos.

So what, for guard, would be the best way to deal with fliers? And "other fliers" does not count as an answer.

I have always been a fan of the humble autocannon. I like it a bit better than the ML or Las because of the higher rate of fire.

Thoughts?

ender502

ender

You're spot on with going to Autocannons to nail flyers on the regular. Between Orders and the rate of fire, they stand a healthy chance at gunning down flyers while shredding infantry and vehicles alike.

 Unholy_Martyr wrote:
ender

You're spot on with going to Autocannons to nail flyers on the regular. Between Orders and the rate of fire, they stand a healthy chance at gunning down flyers while shredding infantry and vehicles alike.

If I were going with a flyer, i'd take out those havocs first(autocannon/ML, i dont care) since they are the best chance to eliminate my flyer. Once their down, i can basically have free reign over the skies.

With That in mind, ill take the flakk missiles. I'll take the s8 missiles that don't snapshot when i don't move. I will have my guys stay put, and have them fire on flyers once they are in range, since i also have another main gunline to boot.

I also hope that if they update the Amendments w/ the flakk missile upgrades for Vanilla marines. Chaos can't be the only ones to have them, makes chaos too op currently.

 ender502 wrote:
So what, for guard, would be the best way to deal with fliers? And "other fliers" does not count as an answer.

Um, yes, "other fliers" totally counts as an answer. Check it out, it's right there in the codex. See the entry "Vendetta Gunship"? Totally legal for regular play, it has a GW produced model and everything; and, oh yeah, it flies around with three twin linked lascannons.

That's your answer to flyers, bud.
Anything else is a waste of points spent trying to avoid getting a Vendetta.

-TheCaptain

@ace

Reading and comprehension man...the autocannon statement was for Imperial Guard who can have more Autocannons than ants in an ant hill...

I've yet to face flyers so I might not get the issue all that well.


Is it really necessary to make an anti-aircraft focused list for all-around play?



For Monstrous Flying Creatures, it seemed to me that because of the Grounded Tests rule (p.49), these seemed somewhat easier to strike down at 12" or 24" with lots cultists autoguns simply because a single hit forces a ground test wich fill fail on 1-2 and force a crash (S9, AP 0 hit).

For the vehicle flyers, I thought having 5 havocs with 4 missile launchers (flakk missiles) and 3 obliterators shooting with assault cannons (Hvy 4, rending) would give me a reasonnable chance against most armies except perhaps against all-flyer lists. The point is, those havocs are expensive for what they do, almost the price of 2.5 obliterators despite being all-around much less versatile,resilient and powerful.

In the light of Ailaros theoritical statement, "Put another way, you can win the game by dominating the ground game, or you can win the game by dominating the air game. Trying to do a little bit of both is just going to see you run into problems with somebody going one way or the other." I am wondering how best to build my army list since I have about 3000 points of Death guard to shuffle around, nearly all infantry.

My Chaos Space Marines army is Nurgle-themed so most units have its mark, I have Epidemius as an ally (with 7 plaguebearers) and Plague Marines, so I wonder if it's worth for me focusing so much attention to the flyers since those CSM units get so expensive so fast, especially since having Epidemius and its retinue costs nearly 200 points simply as buff and non-shooting, mostly immobile objective takers. I feel that by doing so my army would be weak in the "wounding" department since the price of Plague Marines forces me to go infantry heavy, with not much in the way of firepower.

 Unholy_Martyr wrote:
@ace

Reading and comprehension man...the autocannon statement was for Imperial Guard who can have more Autocannons than ants in an ant hill...

Well i wasn't talking about guard, it was about chaos, about 3 posts earlier than mine. They were talking about moving havocs w/ autocannons over moving ML w/ flakk missiles. I contend that you keep the havvocs w/ ML and Flakk in one place, so you get full BS on a skyfire weapon over snapshots on a higher rate of fire weapon.

ADL w/ Quad (regular marines)
2x Heldrake
Xx Havocs with Autocannon (I don't care about numbers you cannon account for loaded dice) (<- twas a joke, but seriously 25 points for a ML is too much)
(remainder of HS)(3)x Oblits w/ Assult cannon / TL Plasma Guns
Of Forgefiends w/ Hades (and head Ectoplasma) instead of oblits if you like mech
Plague Marines with Plasma Guns
DP (FMC DoT) (Iron Arm?? Vektor strike)
Bikes (w/ plasma)

Now if you notice they only thing that is really AA is a 4 shot TL autocannon hey there that's the same price as 2 reaper auto cannons anyway. Everything else is pretty much anti MEQ and or blob...

If you then apply some skill with the army I've seen CSM rip armies (including GKs, Crons, and IG) apart. IG was a actually the closest i've seen.

ender502 wrote:So what, for guard, would be the best way to deal with fliers? And "other fliers" does not count as an answer.

Right, other fliers IS the best answer.

Behind that, though, hydras. They're still cheap, they can still hit ground targets (TL BS1 is roughly equivalent to BS2. Note they work at full BS against skimmers as well), and are obviously pretty good against fliers. Dark horse candidates include orgyn, who can put out a LOT of S5 shots, and primaris psykers, whose lightning arc combined with BiD! is looking at the potential for an awful lot of S6.

Of course, why bother? If you're not going to dominate the air game, dominate the ground game.

 Ailaros wrote:

ender502 wrote:So what, for guard, would be the best way to deal with fliers? And "other fliers" does not count as an answer.

Right, other fliers IS the best answer.

Behind that, though, hydras. They're still cheap, they can still hit ground targets (TL BS1 is roughly equivalent to BS2. Note they work at full BS against skimmers as well), and are obviously pretty good against fliers. Dark horse candidates include orgyn, who can put out a LOT of S5 shots, and primaris psykers, whose lightning arc combined with BiD! is looking at the potential for an awful lot of S6.

Of course, why bother? If you're not going to dominate the air game, dominate the ground game.

So you would take all those options before autocannons HWS's? They aren't as good as Hydras against air but would the trade off of better ground fire make up for that?

ender502

Yes. HWSs are crappy now, regardless of how you arm them.

They're a fragile unit that is now being pitted up against more stuff shooting at them than ever. I've more or less written off HWSs as little more than a way to give your opponent First Blood.

At least ogryn are tough, and primaris psykers can be hidden, and a squad of AV12 vehicles isn't exactly easy to kill either, and vendettas are fliers.

Personally, I feel that 2-3 Heldrakes with Hades Autocannons will be plenty of AA power at the end of the day for Chaos.

For my DE, the Razorwing has done fine and for my Tau, well, the Firewarriors have happily plinked flyers to death ( even better when 2 squads are sat on Skyfire Nexus' ) and of course Broadsides are Twin-Linked S10, AP1 goodness.

@Darkhound; two flamer BERDS are OP!!!111!! :p