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Jackster wrote:AC is good against AV10-11, and the best thing a guardsman on foot can have to fight flyers with. It is also strong enough to wound MCs.

But doesn't have a good enough Ap to ignore their armor saves.

So for comparison, against a TMC, a heavy bolter (at BS3) puts down 1/6th of a wound per shooting. Pretty crummy. The autocannon only puts down a little better than 1/5th of a wound. Both of these weapons could shoot at a T6 monstrous creature for the entire game without putting a single wound on it that stuck. Sure a lascannon is only twice as good as an autocannon, and before you say "yes, but it's twice the price", remember that time is important. That autocannon isn't likely doing its one wound until the end of the game. By that time, it might not matter. By that time, the autocannoneer is likely going to have been killed turns ago. Meanwhile the lascannon is more likely to do damage in the first couple of turns of the game, when it's more important, and before the guy holding the weapon is killed by something.

Meanwhile, look at AV10. A heavy bolter puts down about .5 HP per turn of shooting, while the autocannon puts down .66. Better, but not exactly stellar. Against fliers, the math looks exactly the same as against monstrous creatures. The autocannon isn't very much better, and it's not very good in general. As an interesting side note, the lascannon is exactly as good as the heavy bolter here as far as removing HP, but it's far superior to either of these two options overall as when it hits it almost always pens with an Ap2 weapon.

Then you consider that the heavy bolter is better against hordes, MEq, TEq, and that lascannons are better against AV11-AV14, MCs, and multiwound T4, and it really does make you wonder why bothering with autocannons at all?

 Ailaros wrote:

Jackster wrote:AC is good against AV10-11, and the best thing a guardsman on foot can have to fight flyers with. It is also strong enough to wound MCs.

But doesn't have a good enough Ap to ignore their armor saves.

So for comparison, against a TMC, a heavy bolter (at BS3) puts down 1/6th of a wound per shooting. Pretty crummy. The autocannon only puts down a little better than 1/5th of a wound. Both of these weapons could shoot at a T6 monstrous creature for the entire game without putting a single wound on it that stuck. Sure a lascannon is only twice as good as an autocannon, and before you say "yes, but it's twice the price", remember that time is important. That autocannon isn't likely doing its one wound until the end of the game. By that time, it might not matter. By that time, the autocannoneer is likely going to have been killed turns ago. Meanwhile the lascannon is more likely to do damage in the first couple of turns of the game, when it's more important, and before the guy holding the weapon is killed by something.

Meanwhile, look at AV10. A heavy bolter puts down about .5 HP per turn of shooting, while the autocannon puts down .66. Better, but not exactly stellar. Against fliers, the math looks exactly the same as against monstrous creatures. The autocannon isn't very much better, and it's not very good in general. As an interesting side note, the lascannon is exactly as good as the heavy bolter here as far as removing HP, but it's far superior to either of these two options overall as when it hits it almost always pens with an Ap2 weapon.

Then you consider that the heavy bolter is better against hordes, MEq, TEq, and that lascannons are better against AV11-AV14, MCs, and multiwound T4, and it really does make you wonder why bothering with autocannons at all?

HB does what templates can do better at BS3, LC is better on other platforms than on foot.
And sure LC is twice as effective, they are also twice the cost.

Sorry Ailaros,

I'm a firm believer in death through attrition.
I always ran alot of Autocannons, than again I also run alot 8-12 plasma guns, and a fair amount 6+ Melta guns, with a minor amount of flamer 3-6 depending.

Only lascannons I'll run are on Vendettas with IG as I feel everything else is overcosted.

Considering about 1/3 of my competitive meta is playing Flyer Cron, and the other ones are playing stuff not yet determined in the meta.

In fact I got a new IG/SW list I'm about to try out monday. Lots of autocannons/plasma/flamers/couple melta and an ADF+Q gun

Next part OT
We'll see how it goes, friend wants a game against something other than Daemon Flying circus. As I roll saves like a champ. Fateweaver passed 42/42 with rerolls and 32/42 w/o them 3++ rerollables are op

I mean Ailaros, I totally agree with you that LC is better than AC as weapon. If this thread is not about INFANTRY carried HWs. I simply believe if you want LCs, Vendetta is a better option.
Why would you bring 3 HWT with LCs when a Vendetta is only 25 pts more? You get a very mobile platform that is more durable and double up as a transport if you want to.

Jackster wrote:HB does what templates can do better at BS3

Not against opponents who know what displacement means. When my opponent shoot plasma cannons or missile launchers at me, the average number of hits the get is roughly 1.2, and that's when they don't just scatter away. Being able to displace 2" makes things pretty tough on a template whose radius is only 1.5". It's actually worse than that because the model base itself has a roughly .5" radius, meaning you can effectively displace at twice the distance of the blast radius.

Jackster wrote:LC is better on other platforms than on foot.

So? It's still the best weapon for foot units. The presence of vendettas does not change this fact.

You have to bring infantry units for the purpose of scoring. The question is what is the best way to arm them.

Jackster wrote:And sure LC is twice as effective, they are also twice the cost.

I feel like I've covered this recently...

Ailaros wrote:and before you say "yes, but it's twice the price", remember that time is important. That autocannon isn't likely doing its one wound until the end of the game. By that time, it might not matter. By that time, the autocannoneer is likely going to have been killed turns ago. Meanwhile the lascannon is more likely to do damage in the first couple of turns of the game, when it's more important, and before the guy holding the weapon is killed by something.

Oh, right.

We start with the one situation that an autocannon is supposed to excel in, and find that it's merely tied, per point, with other stuff. Said other stuff then has other advantages, such as...

Ailaros wrote:lascannons are better against AV11-AV14, MCs, and multiwound T4

And it leads you to the question

Ailaros wrote:it really does make you wonder why bothering with autocannons at all?

Anyways,

Jackster wrote:Why would you bring 3 HWT with LCs when a Vendetta is only 25 pts more? You get a very mobile platform that is more durable and double up as a transport if you want to.

Well, there are lots of reasons not to like vendettas, from the fact that they're not scoring (nor contesting), to the fact that you might not own the models, to the fact that you don't want to get the stinkeye from everyone at the game store every time you bring out of your army case.

In any case, I probably won't be taking a lot of lascannon HWSs out there, but that has to do with HWSs, not other things in the codex. Plus, all this really confirms is that the lascannon is the best weapon, and, now that we're not discussing the other, less useful weapons, it has become a matter of which carrier to bring them on.

Or, if you're already bringing certain carriers, what's the best weapon to give them?

Large Blast templates is what I was refering to, this is IG afterall. And most of the things that shoot these templates also happens to carry a HB standard.
You do have to bring infantry for scoring, sure, I wouldnt give them LCs still.

If you dont think ACs were worth taking back in 5th, I dont feel like anything will convince you now anyway.

 Ailaros wrote:
That autocannon isn't likely doing its one wound until the end of the game.

No.

Wow, why no love for the missile launcher? I feel like they're actually a really good match for infantry squads because they can handle anti-tank duty, do much better against monstrous creatures than auto cannons, and can actually jive with las guns in the squad. Not everyone is savvy with displacement and they strike a nice balance in cost between auto cannons and las cannons.

 creeping-deth87 wrote:
Wow, why no love for the missile launcher? I feel like they're actually a really good match for infantry squads because they can handle anti-tank duty, do much better against monstrous creatures than auto cannons, and can actually jive with las guns in the squad. Not everyone is savvy with displacement and they strike a nice balance in cost between auto cannons and las cannons.

The cost mostly, in the Marine armies when they cost as much as a HB they are stellar, when they cost 5 pts less than LC in IG...

 Jackster wrote:

 creeping-deth87 wrote:
Wow, why no love for the missile launcher? I feel like they're actually a really good match for infantry squads because they can handle anti-tank duty, do much better against monstrous creatures than auto cannons, and can actually jive with las guns in the squad. Not everyone is savvy with displacement and they strike a nice balance in cost between auto cannons and las cannons.

The cost mostly, in the Marine armies when they cost as much as a HB they are stellar, when they cost 5 pts less than LC in IG...

I'm still used to 5th and just about everything having a cover save of 4+. That's why I praise the Autocannon, extra shot easy to wound. Potential to force 2 3+ vs 1 4+. Guess thats not as important now with cover being mostly a 5+ . However think about Terminators, and how most people lose them. By rolling 1's at least in my store. Attrition will kill them all

I really like this thread as I use both but very little lascannons as i have 2 vendettas to deal with flyers. I see that most people vote autocannnons but with what is being said it seems logically right to field lascannons.

MrMoustaffa, what point level is your list and what do you run as im curious, do you run Infantry squads with lascannons, or Lascannon HWS, mostlikely a mix of both as i would assume?

I think i Might have to get more heavy weapon squads for the lascannons, but i deffinelty going to play test them first.

I never really saw the mortar as good, just seems nice if you can pin a unit. Never really considered the heavy bolter, maybe in a blob squad as it charged up the field but still doesnt seem viable. Autocannon was what ive always used as it seemed best. Missile launcher never seemed good at all so i never even tried it. I usualy use my lascannons for my CCS, used to have them on my LRBT but NOT ANYMORE LRBT for the win though!

 Ailaros wrote:
Then you consider that the heavy bolter is better against hordes, MEq, TEq, and that lascannons are better against AV11-AV14, MCs, and multiwound T4, and it really does make you wonder why bothering with autocannons at all?

Lascannons aren't much better than autocannons against AV11, and are worse when you add points into the equation. A BS3 lascannon removes 5/12 of a Hull Point against AV11, with a 1/9 chance of an instant kill. A BS3 autocannon removes 1/2 of a hull point, with a 1/18 chance of an instant kill. So an autocannon (which costs half as much as a lascannon) is better than it at removing Hull Points, and while it is bad at instantly killing vehicles, when you consider the fact that you can get two autocannons for the same price as one lascannon, the autocannon remains superior against AV10/11-- those two autocannons are more than twice as good as a lascannon at removing hull points, and equal to it in terms of Explodes results.

Further, autocannons benefit from another interesting subtlety that I haven't seen mentioned elsewhere-- inflicting Crew Shaken and Crew Stunned results is actually to your advantage when targeting a transport vehicle, which most AV10/11 vehicles you're likely to see are. If you take out a vehicle via Hull Point removal (which autocannons are strictly better than lascannons at) while inflicting a Crew Shaken result, the squad inside may only Snap Fire next turn and may not assault-- if you do the same while inflicting a Crew Stunned result, the squad inside may neither fire nor assault next turn.

On the other hand, if you destroy a transport via an Explodes! result, the squad inside may take damage (though this is far from guaranteed), but they will be able to shoot (and perhaps assault, depending on rules interpretations) in their next turn. Thus, in many cases you want to avoid inflicting Explodes! results so that you can ensure the squad inside is suppressed. Autocannons obviously do this much more reliably than lascannons do.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
That autocannon isn't likely doing its one wound until the end of the game.

No.

I love this response. Perfect.

But yeah, Peregrine is right here. If you're not getting much out of autocannons, you might just not be using them right. With some twin linking through prescience or an order, my blob's four of them shred around one transport per turn for me. It's...nice.

"Well lascannons would do it better!"

Sure, but so what. When you're shooting at AV10-11, even 12, paying double what an autocannon costs for 2 more str, and +1 on the damage table, and one less shot? Eh. Really not worth it. Not considering how much good those 40 points could do elsewhere.

Autocannons kill transports fine, and do it cheaply. They kill light troops fine, and do it cheaply. Lascannons can do these things a bit better, but you pay through the nose for it, and they're really not what lascannons are for.

Against T4 SV4+ (and anything weaker) you'll average 1 hit, and 5/6 wounds PER autocannon per turn. So, I mean, yeah. Autocannons work fine, as long as you shoot stuff they are actually effective against.

-Capt

 Jackster wrote:

AC is good against AV10-11, and the best thing a guardsman on foot can have to fight flyers with. It is also strong enough to wound MCs.
HB kills infantry, though IMO we are better off using templates for such thing. Glancing AV10 to death is okay I guess.

I'm not shooting my infantry at fliers unless they literally have no other target. The only time they are the best choice, is when it's a FMC, in which case the lasguns are more likely to cause a wound than the AC, which is also a good case for the HB since it has one more shot.

I'm really thinking that the HB will be my go to weapon since my infantry tend to focus on killing other infantry. I just wish there was a weapon we could choose for heavy infantry, like an assault cannon platform. I think it's odd that IG infantry gets no marine killing heavy weapon, and this is what we come up against most of the time anyway.

For the case of what weapon is best for infantry, I think it comes down to what role they are most cost effective at performing. It seems to me that killing other infantry is their best role, otherwise those masses of lasguns are wasted points.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Jackster wrote:

AC is good against AV10-11, and the best thing a guardsman on foot can have to fight flyers with. It is also strong enough to wound MCs.
HB kills infantry, though IMO we are better off using templates for such thing. Glancing AV10 to death is okay I guess.

I'm not shooting my infantry at fliers unless they literally have no other target. The only time they are the best choice, is when it's a FMC, in which case the lasguns are more likely to cause a wound than the AC, which is also a good case for the HB since it has one more shot.

I'm really thinking that the HB will be my go to weapon since my infantry tend to focus on killing other infantry. I just wish there was a weapon we could choose for heavy infantry, like an assault cannon platform. I think it's odd that IG infantry gets no marine killing heavy weapon, and this is what we come up against most of the time anyway.

For the case of what weapon is best for infantry, I think it comes down to what role they are most cost effective at performing. It seems to me that killing other infantry is their best role, otherwise those masses of lasguns are wasted points.

Nothing wrong if you do it that way.
Just that in a flyer heavy enviroment, having a bunch of cheap 75 pts HWS around and CCS for bring it down is pretty good.
What I'd really like is a Multi-laser platform.

 Griddlelol wrote:

I'm really thinking that the HB will be my go to weapon since my infantry tend to focus on killing other infantry. I just wish there was a weapon we could choose for heavy infantry, like an assault cannon platform. I think it's odd that IG infantry gets no marine killing heavy weapon, and this is what we come up against most of the time anyway.

For the case of what weapon is best for infantry, I think it comes down to what role they are most cost effective at performing. It seems to me that killing other infantry is their best role, otherwise those masses of lasguns are wasted points.

Doh. Random question: what happens if your opponent brings full mech? Or just plays long-range gunline and stays out of the 36" brand? You put your wasted Heavy Bolters next to your wasted Lasguns?


Personally, I think Autocannons are like the grenade launchers of the heavy weapons section, only not as trashy and worthless. They can hurt lots of stuff, and with good rolls, they can hurt them badly (unlike the GL... but thats another story). And as an extra bonus, you can mass them hardcore if you want. Just think about it: for each lascannon shot, you can get four autocannon shots. How cool is that?

Well, not that cool. As a fun fact, that single lascannon can potentially do more damage and can hurt a wider range of targets than the two autocannons. And more importantly, it only takes up a single heavy weapon slot, so you can spam them in normal Infantry Squads and you don't need to take the super-durable Heavy Weapon Squads. And the lascannon laso has a better synergy with the worthwhile special weapons (melta, plasma) too. So I would call the lascannon as the best, simply because it just fits better and has a higher usefulness value than the AC.

 AtoMaki wrote:

Doh. Random question: what happens if your opponent brings full mech? Or just plays long-range gunline and stays out of the 36" brand? You put your wasted Heavy Bolters next to your wasted Lasguns?

Full mech means my infantry will be more suited to killing what comes out of the transport. In the current meta-game, people are crying about how easy it is to kill their transports and so tend to be moving away from them anyway.

Long range gunline means I have to move, just like I have to move if all I can bring to bear are the pathetically weak autocannon. I'm not going to sit back and take pot-shots with an autocannon when I can move and bring actual strategy.

You're looking at it in a vacuum. Just because part of my list can't deal with transports, doesn't mean everything else is just as weak, it just means I've specialised my infantry to deal with infantry.

Personally, I think Autocannons are like the grenade launchers of the heavy weapons section, only not as trashy and worthless. They can hurt lots of stuff, and with good rolls, they can hurt them badly (unlike the GL... but thats another story). And as an extra bonus, you can mass them hardcore if you want. Just think about it: for each lascannon shot, you can get four autocannon shots. How cool is that?

Just think about it this way, for each autocannon shot, you can get a single grenade launcher shot. They can also move with them, and put out blast templates, plus if they're charged they have a wall of death. They're even more spammable than autocannons, but it doesn't make them good. Just like autocannons. What's wrong with specialising? You don't see people putting a melta, a plasma and a flamer in their vet squads so they can "hurt lots of stuff." This is guard, it's meant to specialise, it works best when it specialises and it can do it incredibly well.

 Griddlelol wrote:

You're looking at it in a vacuum. Just because part of my list can't deal with transports, doesn't mean everything else is just as weak, it just means I've specialised my infantry to deal with infantry.

But isn't that a little bit counter-productive? I mean, for example if you have 6 units, 3 specialized to kill infantry and 3 that can hurt vehicles too, then your full-mech opponent can ignore half of your army and simply focus on the 3 anti-vehicle units. And if he can bring them down, then he essentially won the game.

 Griddlelol wrote:
Just think about it this way, for each autocannon shot, you can get a single grenade launcher shot.

NO. I don't want to think about that way. I don't want to think about GLs in any way. It hurts my brain .

 Griddlelol wrote:
What's wrong with specialising? You don't see people putting a melta, a plasma and a flamer in their vet squads so they can "hurt lots of stuff." This is guard, it's meant to specialise, it works best when it specialises and it can do it incredibly well.

Meltas and plasmas are versatile weapons on their own. Specializing on weapon =/= specializing on target.

 AtoMaki wrote:

But isn't that a little bit counter-productive? I mean, for example if you have 6 units, 3 specialized to kill infantry and 3 that can hurt vehicles too, then your full-mech opponent can ignore half of your army and simply focus on the 3 anti-vehicle units. And if he can bring them down, then he essentially won the game.

See below

Specializing on weapon =/= specializing on target.

You're also missing that in 6th you have to disembark. There's no hiding in transports on an objective. If you want to assault, you have to disembark a turn ahead. This just increases the effectiveness of anti-infantry weapons, which can also kill transports, not the effectiveness of anti-transport weapons that can also kill infantry. This is why plasmas have seen a massive come-back. They are great at one, and decent at another. Autocannons are at best ok at one, and weak at the other.

For what it's worth, here's my two-pence worth

I run autocannons in my infantry squads because in my local group autocannons have a reputation and are feared, mostly by the terminators in the group! I've no idea why this is, but it does seem to work, shooting autocannons at 2+ saves results in more 1s than lascannons cause wounds.
I include lascannons in my lists on hws as it doesn't synergise with lasguns and a team of 3 (with orders) gets the job done nicely!

I must point out in my local group flyers are none existent and armour rarely used so YMMV

Djdom wrote:
shooting autocannons at 2+ saves results in more 1s than lascannons cause wounds.

No it doesn't.

I go with lascannons, in squads, and an even mix of melta/plasma for special weapons.
For weapon teams?
3-6 teams of mortars (because 4 Russes and 1 basilisk used up all my heavy support).

Mortar teams are a nice cheap way to snipe important non-IC's, and focus a lot of firepower where you need it.
Yes, the lowly lasgun does much of the same task as a mortar. But the 48" range of the mortar allows much better focus of fire than the rapid firing lasguns. With wounds being pulled from the center marker, you can drop them in the middle of a horde, and still FRFSRF the leading edge of the horde.

-Matt


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, one more point.
Cheap mortar teams hiding out of line of sight in my backfield can very effectively camp on objectives while still safely lobbing shots into the enemy.

-Matt

I've always been tempted of bringing 15 mortar teams. Costs too much IRL for it though (unless I go the base on base route).

Just some food for thought...the actual answer to the "which is better?" question is...it depends.

Here are some numbers...assuming 6 rounds of shooting from an IF versus AR 10/11/12/13/14 - the number below the ar VALUE IS THE NUMBER OF GLANCES OR PENS.... We are not taing into account any orders that can be used... just plain BS 3 is all that is considered


ac - 6 hits over 6 rounds 4 (vs ar 10) 3 (vs ar 11) 2 (vs ar 12) 1 (vs ar 13) 0 (vs ar 14)
las: 3 hits over 6 rounds 3 (vs ar 10) 2.5 (vs ar 11) 2 (vs ar 12) 1.5 (vs ar 13) 1 (vs ar 14)

Of course this is just against AR values and doesn't take into accounts big nasty models. It also doesn't take into account cost. The IF squad w/ AC is cheaper than the las squad by about15%. While I won't use cost to show effectiveness versus AR (which really isn't the most valid thing to do) I can say that 6 IF squads with las will cost almost as much as 7 IF squads with autocannons. More, it strikes me, is better. And in case you are wondering...the price difference between AC and LAS with HWS works out with ac being about 13.6% cheaper...just about the same as the IF squad.

So what does this show us? The AC is more effective at AR 10 & 11, as effective at ar 12, less effective at ar 13 and 14.

So, depending on your meta...land raiders and monstrous creatures? Hordes and rhinos and dark eldar? you have a choice between 2 weapons that accomplish different tasks. So, AC is better versus 2 AR values, las is better versus 2 types and they are both equally valuable versus ar 12. SOUNDS LIKE A DRAW TO ME.

ender502

I use lascannons and mortars in HWS with missile launchers in infantry squads. the ML is more for anti-infantry blasts with the possible anti-low/medium armour penetration and back-up AV weapons if the lascannons gets taken out or cannot fire at a priority target,

This thread is turning into a magic 8 ball answer. Result unclear!

For now I will be keeping both LC and AC in my list as neither can replace the other and I find both to be useful. Then again I am a guard wierdo who also likes grenade launchers and mortars.

I agree I was hoping it would help me make a better decision but i think i might just have to use both in my list for the time being.

 TheCaptain wrote:

Djdom wrote:
shooting autocannons at 2+ saves results in more 1s than lascannons cause wounds.

No it doesn't.

It typically seems that way beings you'll sometimes force 9+ 2+ saves and they fail 3 vs forcing 2-3 3++ saves and them failing 1ish
Most people remember 1's being rolled more than invuls.

For example I remember the time I killed 3/5 of my TH/SS termies by exploding a LRBT, failed 3/3 2+ saves >.>

Several people have said that a lascannon costs twice as much as an autocannon. Not true.

If we're talking HWS, autocannons cost 25 points and lascannons cost 35 points.

If we're talking basic grunt squads, an autocannon costs 60 points and a lascannon costs 70 points, assuming no other squad upgrades. If you're shooting the heavy weapon, the rest of the squad is doing jack diddly, so you should really factor in the cost.

Does that change anyone's calculus?

Hesperus wrote:
Several people have said that a lascannon costs twice as much as an autocannon. Not true.

If we're talking HWS, autocannons cost 25 points and lascannons cost 35 points.

If we're talking basic grunt squads, an autocannon costs 60 points and a lascannon costs 70 points, assuming no other squad upgrades. If you're shooting the heavy weapon, the rest of the squad is doing jack diddly, so you should really factor in the cost.

Does that change anyone's calculus?

Well you can still move and snapshot heavy weapons. Not the worst Idea with a Platoon with 5 HWT's in it to move issue bring it down and shoot at a flyer.