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pepe5454 wrote:
I have a feeling I might reconsider my dakkajets once more armies besides chaos get skyfire option on rocket launcher squads but for now they are great.

Besides that they have three HP so, that are better off then most fliers.

FenixZero wrote:

pepe5454 wrote:
I have a feeling I might reconsider my dakkajets once more armies besides chaos get skyfire option on rocket launcher squads but for now they are great.

Besides that they have three HP so, that are better off then most fliers.

How on earth do you figure that? The only standard flyer with less than 3HP is the Stormtalon, but that's AV11. The Dakkajet is actually the easiest flyer to destroy.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

FenixZero wrote:

pepe5454 wrote:
I have a feeling I might reconsider my dakkajets once more armies besides chaos get skyfire option on rocket launcher squads but for now they are great.

Besides that they have three HP so, that are better off then most fliers.

How on earth do you figure that? The only standard flyer with less than 3HP is the Stormtalon, but that's AV11. The Dakkajet is actually the easiest flyer to destroy.

what do you mean the only flyer with less than 3HP is the stormtalon?

DE flyers have 2
and dakkajets have 2 right?

Flyers are like potato chips. You can't have just one. If you just run one solo it will seem very over priced and under powered. But in groups of 3-9 they'll do some really fun things.

DE have3 HP

Aegis defense lines pretty much screw fliers and its only 100pts for the line + quadgun.

Half of the guys i play with are fixated on fliers dominate, but every game i play against them they either win because im focused on the flier that didnt even do much, or lose because i had an Aegisquadgun set up and the instant that thing rolled up onto the field DAKKADAKKADAKKA! its dead.
Grots make great Aegis defenders .... BS3 ftw (curse you orkyness BS2)

I'd have to agree that i feel theyre overrated. From what i can tell (havnt used them yet) Dakkajets are still very viable because they pump out a LOT of shots per turn. And theyre pretty cheap anyway. Again, though, i havnt tried them yet personally.

I often take a single Doom Scythe in my army lists. There has not been so far a single flier still alive after it has come on the board shooting.

Once however, there was a single Medusa absorb enough Tesla to kill Abaddon, but it was under a 3+ Cover

A single flyer is nothing. Any decent list can either ignore them or kill them by focusing an exorbitant amount of shooting into them for one turn. Two flyers, same deal.

But what about 6 or more flyers? Most armies (read: any list with less than 50 scoring models) can't afford to ignore that. You either kill them or die. But since most armies can't kill them, they die anyway.

Bringing flyers of one's own doesn't solve the problem, because it carries the issue of escalation. If your flyers successfully counter the enemy, that just means he needs to bring more flyers. Therefore, you must bring even more to counter him. Guess who's going to win this arms race? Whoever's codex has the most flyers. This will, naturally, be the guy who was spamming flyers to begin with. Moreover, the more flyers you bring, the fewer scoring models you can afford to have on the board (which means less models that your opponent has to kill in order to cripple you).

Quad Guns are technically useless if your opponent wants them to be (terrain is placed after fortifications). Is blocking a Quad Gun's LOS with a building a dick move? Absolutely. But so is running a flyerspam list in the first place. And even if they don't block it, a Quad Gun can only target one flyer per turn (and then will only inflict 1-2 HP of damage per turn). This will not put a significant dent into 6 flyers. It might take down one before the others descend upon it and blow it away. It will not save you.

Let's do some math.

A Necron Air Force will kill an average of something like 2 marines per flyer per turn (if we assume the death rays only hit 2 guys every time). So, with 8 flyers and 3 turns of shooting that means 48 dead marines. If the Necron player has half a brain, he'll be targeting troops.

Now ask yourself: How many armies can lose the equivalent of 48 marine troops (from the flyers alone, never mind the rest of the army) and still win? Not a whole lot.

Really, the only methods most armies have of dealing with flyerspam is to use FW or ally with someone that can give them a lot of scoring models for cheap (in other words, IG for infantry platoons).

And what do you know? The big winner at NOVA ran a SW/IG list that had 118 bodies on the board (most of them scoring).

reaper with no name wrote:
A single flyer is nothing. Any decent list can either ignore them or kill them by focusing an exorbitant amount of shooting into them for one turn. Two flyers, same deal.

Bold point is false. While most people will be able to take outa flier without too much trouble, a single flier can do an amazing ammount of damage in a single turn. For example, several times I have taken out multiple tanks with a single Death Ray shot.

But what about 6 or more flyers? Most armies (read: any list with less than 50 scoring models) can't afford to ignore that. You either kill them or die. But since most armies can't kill them, they die anyway.

Next to no one will bring >6 fliers ever. I know Cron Airforce lists are amazing and fairly cheap, but that amount of flyers in any other army leaves you unbeleivably limited with what else you can take

Bringing flyers of one's own doesn't solve the problem, because it carries the issue of escalation. If your flyers successfully counter the enemy, that just means he needs to bring more flyers. Therefore, you must bring even more to counter him. Guess who's going to win this arms race? Whoever's codex has the most flyers. This will, naturally, be the guy who was spamming flyers to begin with. Moreover, the more flyers you bring, the fewer scoring models you can afford to have on the board (which means less models that your opponent has to kill in order to cripple you).

see the point above

Quad Guns are technically useless if your opponent wants them to be (terrain is placed after fortifications). Is blocking a Quad Gun's LOS with a building a dick move? Absolutely. But so is running a flyerspam list in the first place. And even if they don't block it, a Quad Gun can only target one flyer per turn (and then will only inflict 1-2 HP of damage per turn). This will not put a significant dent into 6 flyers. It might take down one before the others descend upon it and blow it away. It will not save you.

Again, bold point is a load of crap, terrain is before fortifications. Quad Guns can bring down any flier in the game in a single turn with good rolls.

Let's do some math.

A Necron Air Force will kill an average of something like 2 marines per flyer per turn (if we assume the death rays only hit 2 guys every time). So, with 8 flyers and 3 turns of shooting that means 48 dead marines. If the Necron player has half a brain, he'll be targeting troops.

Who the feth would waste S10AP1 weapons on troops?

Now ask yourself: How many armies can lose the equivalent of 48 marine troops (from the flyers alone, never mind the rest of the army) and still win? Not a whole lot.

True enough

Really, the only methods most armies have of dealing with flyerspam is to use FW or ally with someone that can give them a lot of scoring models for cheap (in other words, IG for infantry platoons).

Not really, you can just snapshot them. People at my Local bring down Vendettas on Zoom with Plasma Guns.

And what do you know? The big winner at NOVA ran a SW/IG list that had 118 bodies on the board (most of them scoring).

Well, infantry lists are quite good vs Flyerspam, in some missions. And Infasntry lists are good in objectives. But I cant see them doing well in a Kill Points game, as a single well-placed Template is a dead unit.

 Exergy wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

FenixZero wrote:

pepe5454 wrote:
I have a feeling I might reconsider my dakkajets once more armies besides chaos get skyfire option on rocket launcher squads but for now they are great.

Besides that they have three HP so, that are better off then most fliers.

How on earth do you figure that? The only standard flyer with less than 3HP is the Stormtalon, but that's AV11. The Dakkajet is actually the easiest flyer to destroy.

what do you mean the only flyer with less than 3HP is the stormtalon?

DE flyers have 2
and dakkajets have 2 right?

No they all have 3.

I've found that if the Quad gun is in a position to draw line of sight to me fliers, it's also in line of sight to most of my army. It isn't hard to do 2 wounds to a T7 3+ save model in a single shooting phase. Any game where I'm counting on flyers, I kill the Quad gun on turn 1.
If my opponent hides, or partially hides the quad gun, I can usually hide my flyers when they enter.
The Quad isn't the end of be all of air defense. Now if you can take ~3 of them...

-Matt

 IHateNids wrote:

reaper with no name wrote:
A single flyer is nothing. Any decent list can either ignore them or kill them by focusing an exorbitant amount of shooting into them for one turn. Two flyers, same deal.

Bold point is false. While most people will be able to take outa flier without too much trouble, a single flier can do an amazing ammount of damage in a single turn. For example, several times I have taken out multiple tanks with a single Death Ray shot.

But what about 6 or more flyers? Most armies (read: any list with less than 50 scoring models) can't afford to ignore that. You either kill them or die. But since most armies can't kill them, they die anyway.

Next to no one will bring >6 fliers ever. I know Cron Airforce lists are amazing and fairly cheap, but that amount of flyers in any other army leaves you unbeleivably limited with what else you can take

Bringing flyers of one's own doesn't solve the problem, because it carries the issue of escalation. If your flyers successfully counter the enemy, that just means he needs to bring more flyers. Therefore, you must bring even more to counter him. Guess who's going to win this arms race? Whoever's codex has the most flyers. This will, naturally, be the guy who was spamming flyers to begin with. Moreover, the more flyers you bring, the fewer scoring models you can afford to have on the board (which means less models that your opponent has to kill in order to cripple you).

see the point above

Quad Guns are technically useless if your opponent wants them to be (terrain is placed after fortifications). Is blocking a Quad Gun's LOS with a building a dick move? Absolutely. But so is running a flyerspam list in the first place. And even if they don't block it, a Quad Gun can only target one flyer per turn (and then will only inflict 1-2 HP of damage per turn). This will not put a significant dent into 6 flyers. It might take down one before the others descend upon it and blow it away. It will not save you.

Again, bold point is a load of crap, terrain is before fortifications. Quad Guns can bring down any flier in the game in a single turn with good rolls.

Let's do some math.

A Necron Air Force will kill an average of something like 2 marines per flyer per turn (if we assume the death rays only hit 2 guys every time). So, with 8 flyers and 3 turns of shooting that means 48 dead marines. If the Necron player has half a brain, he'll be targeting troops.

Who the feth would waste S10AP1 weapons on troops?

Now ask yourself: How many armies can lose the equivalent of 48 marine troops (from the flyers alone, never mind the rest of the army) and still win? Not a whole lot.

True enough

Really, the only methods most armies have of dealing with flyerspam is to use FW or ally with someone that can give them a lot of scoring models for cheap (in other words, IG for infantry platoons).

Not really, you can just snapshot them. People at my Local bring down Vendettas on Zoom with Plasma Guns.

And what do you know? The big winner at NOVA ran a SW/IG list that had 118 bodies on the board (most of them scoring).

Well, infantry lists are quite good vs Flyerspam, in some missions. And Infasntry lists are good in objectives. But I cant see them doing well in a Kill Points game, as a single well-placed Template is a dead unit.

Who would take out troops with flyers? Someone who wants to remove the enemy's ability to claim objectives.

Check the rulebook. Fortifications go before terrain. It's absurd, yes. But it is the rule.

Sure, you might get lucky with your quad gun and kill a flyer in one turn. It's equally likely you will fail to do anything to the flyer.

There's nothing "limited" about lists that can vaporize the vast majority of the lists in the game with minimal effort. Sure, an all-infantry list will beat an air force, but every list has that one list that hard counters it. If you can practically guarantee victory at deployment against most lists, who cares if there are one or two other lists out there that can do the same to you? You can just take the loss and crush the next 4 guys you meet.

The Doom Scythe is an interesting exception to the "one flyer is no problem" rule (due to the death ray). But even so, most lists can take out a single doom scythe by devoting all their shooting to it for one turn (unless you're a dedicated assault army; but in that case you probably already expect to lose).

if someone brings a doom Scythe against an all-assault army, i hope to hell they are playing Tyranids and the Scythe is hunting MC/FMC.

My point was that if you are left with nothing to shoot at with a clearly AT-oriented weapon than troops, either your opponant is doing something wrong or you have managed to eradicate everything with an armour value in one turn (or your opponant is playing GK)

Fortifications go before either army, but not before other terrain.

Quad Gun point is valid.

I think you misunderstood the point I was trying to make on this one. Cron Air comes in at 600pts for 6 decent flying dedicated transports. Thats not a great ammount of your army. Something like a Storm Raven however, will write off 1200-1500 depending on loadout, and that is after youve got 2HQs and 4Troops to gain the double FOC.

IHateNids wrote:My point was that if you are left with nothing to shoot at with a clearly AT-oriented weapon than troops, either your opponant is doing something wrong or you have managed to eradicate everything with an armour value in one turn (or your opponant is playing GK).

Or you're playing against your average 6th edition infantry list...

Hey guys don't just bicker back and forth between who's right, have some facts to back up your statements, saying that its in the BRB isn't enough, please state the page paragraph and line so that we can have proof that you are correct. It's pissing me off.

-kthxbai

P.S. Heldrake is awesome

HawaiiMatt wrote:
I've found that if the Quad gun is in a position to draw line of sight to me fliers, it's also in line of sight to most of my army. It isn't hard to do 2 wounds to a T7 3+ save model in a single shooting phase. Any game where I'm counting on flyers, I kill the Quad gun on turn 1.
If my opponent hides, or partially hides the quad gun, I can usually hide my flyers when they enter.
The Quad isn't the end of be all of air defense. Now if you can take ~3 of them...

-Matt

If they're gun isn't getting a 4+ cover save from being behind the ADL they're silly.
On a side not my Q-gun is normally manned by gretchen who can barely draw LOS through the slits. Poor short lil buggers.
I just like the gun as additional shots, the 3x12 lootas tend to handle most things

Agreed it's not the end all be all. It's mainly nice for the ADL imo.

The top of page 120 in the BRB clearly states:

"players must place any fortifications they have in
their arrnies before placing any other terrain."

Fliers are most assuredly NOT a waste of points.

Every flyer starts in reserve, so no real chance of first blood. When they arrive they can maneuver in such a way that even the shortest ranged weapons can still hit have range to shoot. I haven't seen a flyer yet that couldn't take out multiple models from shooting, or destroy just about any vehicle they shoot at.

The Gunship flyers- the ones with a lot of weapons- pretty much get to shoot them all thanks to the Flyer rules. The transport flyers- "Flying Land Raiders"- complete with assault ramps.

Unless you have Skyfire and/or Intercept, you need a six to hit a flyer. Most flyers are AV 11 or 12. So you're using anti-tank weapons to take them out- and most armies only have a couple of these. Even if you hit, the flyer can do a Jink save- 5+ Cover Save. The only draw back is that the flyer has to make snap shots on the next turn. Let's say you did hit, now roll for armor penetration. Might not do anything. If you glance, the flyer laughs and will happily continue to move and shoot you next turn. If you penetrate, another dice roll.

If things are too hot for the flier, it can zoom off the table and enter ongoing reserves and come back onto the table in a more favorable position later.

Here we have a unit in the game that requires a 6 to hit, can get a 5+ Cover Save against ANY shot, and is a vehicle. It always gets to shoot up to 4 of its weapons. The only result on the damage table that matters is explodes. The flyer can still function with any other result on the armor penetration roll. In one out of the six missions in the rulebook, fast attack choices are scoring units.

Your only defense against a flyer is a lucky shot, Skyfire/Intercept, or ANOTHER flyer.

How can this unit EVER be considered a waste of points with the drastic lack of AAA in the game right now?

 Tamwulf wrote:


Here we have a unit in the game that requires a 6 to hit, can get a 5+ Cover Save against ANY shot, and is a vehicle. It always gets to shoot up to 4 of its weapons. The only result on the damage table that matters is explodes. The flyer can still function with any other result on the armor penetration roll.

Unfortunately if your opponent positions himself right stunned immobilized and explodes all will kill your flyers.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
I've found that if the Quad gun is in a position to draw line of sight to me fliers, it's also in line of sight to most of my army. It isn't hard to do 2 wounds to a T7 3+ save model in a single shooting phase. Any game where I'm counting on flyers, I kill the Quad gun on turn 1.
If my opponent hides, or partially hides the quad gun, I can usually hide my flyers when they enter.
The Quad isn't the end of be all of air defense. Now if you can take ~3 of them...

-Matt

If they're gun isn't getting a 4+ cover save from being behind the ADL they're silly.
On a side not my Q-gun is normally manned by gretchen who can barely draw LOS through the slits. Poor short lil buggers.
I just like the gun as additional shots, the 3x12 lootas tend to handle most things

Agreed it's not the end all be all. It's mainly nice for the ADL imo.

Yup, 4+ cover. It's still just 2 wounds. As I just pointed out in another thread, snipers are prefect for Quadgun killing. Even ratlings have a place on the battlefield with a quadgun is around.

-Matt

pepe5454 wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:


Here we have a unit in the game that requires a 6 to hit, can get a 5+ Cover Save against ANY shot, and is a vehicle. It always gets to shoot up to 4 of its weapons. The only result on the damage table that matters is explodes. The flyer can still function with any other result on the armor penetration roll.

Unfortunately if your opponent positions himself right stunned immobilized and explodes all will kill your flyers.

For Locked Velocity to kill a flyer takes some significant foresight though, as it is locked at the speed it last moved, whereas with Stunned it is always 18", which is where you want to move to even if you don't do any damage. In most cases you aren't going to risk moving the guys to only 23" away because that's what it moved last but rather just go for the 18".

pepe5454 wrote:
Unfortunately if your opponent positions himself right stunned immobilized and explodes all will kill your flyers.

Stunned for a flyer means it has to move 18" in a straight line and can only fire snap shots. It can still evade.

Immobilized for a flyer gives it locked velocity, so it must move at Combat or Cruise speed and can't move flat out. It can still turn before it moves, and it can still fire at full effect. The flyer can no longer evade.

Of course we have Explodes. "Even in death, my duty does not end". I've managed to kill a few models with the flaming debris/wreckage raining down onto the battlefield.

In all of the above cases, you still need a 6 to hit the flyer, and only in the Immobilized result do you get to ignore the evade/jink roll.

Not to play down your quote or anything Pepe5454. You bring up good points. Good positioning and lucky rolls will still bring the flyer down. The point I'm trying to make is that stunned and immobilized don't really affect the effectiveness of the flyer. You basically have a 1 in 3 chance of effecting the Flyer when you roll on the armor penetration table (slightly more if you get a +1 or +2 on the table for the explode result). It still takes a lot to do so, and you have to use AT weapons. Such weapons are relatively rare in most armies. Making a generalization here- I think most players would prefer to shoot at tanks where they can use their full BS of AT weapons instead of at a flyer where they will need a 6 to hit. Of course, their are exceptions, and a flyer could be a larger threat, etc. etc.

 Tamwulf wrote:

pepe5454 wrote:
Unfortunately if your opponent positions himself right stunned immobilized and explodes all will kill your flyers.

Stunned for a flyer means it has to move 18" in a straight line and can only fire snap shots. It can still evade.

Immobilized for a flyer gives it locked velocity, so it must move at Combat or Cruise speed and can't move flat out. It can still turn before it moves, and it can still fire at full effect. The flyer can no longer evade.

Right, and when the opponent knows exactly far you are forced to move, and moves his troops to those positions, what happens?

Unless you play Necrons. You can saturate anythin with Bolter shots and glance it to death.

 IHateNids wrote:
Unless you play Necrons. You can saturate anythin with Bolter shots and glance it to death.

Not sure what this is supposed to mean; Necrons don't have Bolters and Bolters can't glance Necron flyers so whatever way you meant this, what's written makes no sense.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:
Unless you play Necrons. You can saturate anythin with Bolter shots and glance it to death.

Not sure what this is supposed to mean; Necrons don't have Bolters and Bolters can't glance Necron flyers so whatever way you meant this, what's written makes no sense.

A Gauss Flayer is indeed a Bolter. It has the same exact profile, with the additional Gauss rule.

 AresX8 wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:
Unless you play Necrons. You can saturate anythin with Bolter shots and glance it to death.

Not sure what this is supposed to mean; Necrons don't have Bolters and Bolters can't glance Necron flyers so whatever way you meant this, what's written makes no sense.

A Gauss Flayer is indeed a Bolter. It has the same exact profile, with the additional Gauss rule.

Then he should have said Gauss Flayer, 'cause as you noted, they have the Gauss rule meaning no, they are not Bolters.

And Guass is a powerful AT weapon in its own right, meaning any actuall AT weapons in a necron army are targetting tanks.

 Tamwulf wrote:

pepe5454 wrote:
Unfortunately if your opponent positions himself right stunned immobilized and explodes all will kill your flyers.

Stunned for a flyer means it has to move 18" in a straight line and can only fire snap shots. It can still evade.

Immobilized for a flyer gives it locked velocity, so it must move at Combat or Cruise speed and can't move flat out. It can still turn before it moves, and it can still fire at full effect. The flyer can no longer evade.

Of course we have Explodes. "Even in death, my duty does not end". I've managed to kill a few models with the flaming debris/wreckage raining down onto the battlefield.

In all of the above cases, you still need a 6 to hit the flyer, and only in the Immobilized result do you get to ignore the evade/jink roll.

Not to play down your quote or anything Pepe5454. You bring up good points. Good positioning and lucky rolls will still bring the flyer down. The point I'm trying to make is that stunned and immobilized don't really affect the effectiveness of the flyer. You basically have a 1 in 3 chance of effecting the Flyer when you roll on the armor penetration table (slightly more if you get a +1 or +2 on the table for the explode result). It still takes a lot to do so, and you have to use AT weapons. Such weapons are relatively rare in most armies. Making a generalization here- I think most players would prefer to shoot at tanks where they can use their full BS of AT weapons instead of at a flyer where they will need a 6 to hit. Of course, their are exceptions, and a flyer could be a larger threat, etc. etc.

I forgot you can still turn on immobilized but for stunned your opponent can just move something or have something close enough to run in the shooting phase 18" in front of the flyer after getting a stunned result. If he does this he can stop shooting at the flyer because on your turn you have to move 18 inches in a straight line and if he has something there your flyer is auto destroyed you can still get lucky though and hopefully make him pay for it with the crash =). Many times I would prefer the immobilized vs the stunned if you can still turn when immobilized.

It more or less depends on the players tactics... but yes, some flyers are better than others.

Storm Talon, yeah definately not worth it, haven't actually seen anyone use it...

Storm Raven, faced one one since 6th Ed hit, the BA variety. Hasn't too bad, still wrecked about 1/4 of my army...

DE Flyers, unsure, never versed them (by that I mean DE, not the DE Flyers)

Ork Flyers, no one here has them, but that's because not many people play orks here...

Necrons, probably the best flyers in the game, though 1 by itself is a waste...

IG, not many IG players here, haven't versed guard since 5th

Chaos, Heldrake is crazy-good. Fairly easy to destroy, but it will wreck any light-medium tanks it can get its claws on, literally. Oh, and it can wreck MEQ fairly easily.


So, I'd say most aren't a waste