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edit: arrgh just ignore this post...

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:
They hate that there is the axe of blind fury which is ap 2 and attacks in initiative order and there is kharn who ignore unwieldy and still get ap 2. Not to mention Abbadon

Really? It's Kharn, he's supposed to be overpowering in close combat. It's not like he has some special rules that muck up the entire army or anything. Are there that many SM players who think that their terminators should be untouchable?

There are some people finding very effective power builds now with chaos but even after playing some of them, I still feel like they are below the necrons.

The new chaos is fairly well balanced as either a low powered fluff lists if you use alot of ineffective units but can be really devestating with the right combination of good units from the dex including drakes, oblits, spawn and either bikes or cheap marine spam. Sorcer builds are also getting some traction cept the delivery system of getting into melee is still somewhat problematic for them.

Overall if you are using mostly good and cost effective units, they rank right up there with where the GK's are currently in 6th. Not necron strong but certainly not unbeatable and hardly cheese as far as I'm concerned. Seriously, if you want to see CSM cheese, it's out there, just make lists with a balance of the above and it will do very well vs the foot meq meta that is strong lately.

Hopefully this is the same level of balance as 8th ed fantasy has so far managed. They seem to have *some* understanding of this within the studio.

 Vaktathi wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
SW termies pay 30pts for assault cannons so 25 for reaper isnt that bad really.

The assault cannon has 2 additional shots and Rending, and is still seen as a mediocre buy.

Warpsmiths let you keep your vehicles going, and can weaken enemy bunkers so are far from pointless.

Warpsmiths as vehicle repair units are way too expensive to justify their cost, and if they're doing that they're not doing anything else. It's also not like they're terribly effective at it and can't be everywhere they need to be at once. They also cannot weaken terrain the opponent purchased and does nothing to buildings, so it does nothing to aegis lines or bastions. They pay for a whole lot of mediocre and mutually exclusive abilities.

basically yes.

Assault cannons are MUCH better than reaper autocannons. Psycannons even more. And cyclones are just over the top by comparison.

Warpsmiths can only effect non purchased terrain, which makes them too situational
Their curse and repair take away from their shooting, so why have the meltagun in the first place. The 4+ repair isnt very relable or cost effective either.

Overall you have a cool model with underpowered unexciting rules, like most of the new models in the codex(helturkey not included)

Oh don't start bringing space wolves and prices into this. Their book is the cheapest, best bang for buck codex out there. Free guns, cheaper everything, better basic troops, the list goes on and on.

CSM cheese really pales in comaprison to other cheese out there.

Chaos currently has good access to low-AP melee weapons that strike at regular Initiative, though that is moslty on a couple of named HQs and as some very expensive wargear. Given how much CC has suffered compared to shooting in this edition, this is not really a big advantage.

Then you add the 3++ save that many other armies can throw out (loyalist marines, Necrons) and suddenly AP2 is not even that great for dealing with many deathstars out there.

When it comes to shooting, chaos has the perk of flexible troops that can field a good number of special weapons: double plasma basic marines, melta teams, the works. And Chosen to make sure something really gets dead.

Let's see what Chaos does NOT have:
-Fast land vehicles
-Psychic defense
-Acces to Divination, hands down the best Psyker discipline
-Drop pod or Any real way to guide their Deep Strikes (Dimensional Key is a bad joke)
-Big strategic abilities on HQs (stealing initiative, redeploying, adding special rules to select units, etc)
-Twin-linked things in general
-Any unit-wide 3++ (i.e Storm Shields)
-Open-topped or assault transports other than the Land Raider, or even letting other units have it as a dedicated transport

Chaos is solid right now but it doesn't have much tactical depth. Walk forward and try to kill the expensive stuff before your troops die enough to lose punch. Pray your Helldrake manages to deal with enemy flyers or you will get hosed.

My guess is that it is going to grow weaker very, very fast as other books come out and writers get bolder.

 Sephyr wrote:


CSM cheese really pales in comaprison to other cheese out there.

Chaos currently has good access to low-AP melee weapons that strike at regular Initiative, though that is moslty on a couple of named HQs and as some very expensive wargear. Given how much CC has suffered compared to shooting in this edition, this is not really a big advantage.

Then you add the 3++ save that many other armies can throw out (loyalist marines, Necrons) and suddenly AP2 is not even that great for dealing with many deathstars out there.

When it comes to shooting, chaos has the perk of flexible troops that can field a good number of special weapons: double plasma basic marines, melta teams, the works. And Chosen to make sure something really gets dead.

Let's see what Chaos does NOT have:
-Fast land vehicles
-Psychic defense
-Acces to Divination, hands down the best Psyker discipline
-Drop pod or Any real way to guide their Deep Strikes (Dimensional Key is a bad joke)
-Big strategic abilities on HQs (stealing initiative, redeploying, adding special rules to select units, etc)
-Twin-linked things in general
-Any unit-wide 3++ (i.e Storm Shields)
-Open-topped or assault transports other than the Land Raider, or even letting other units have it as a dedicated transport

Chaos is solid right now but it doesn't have much tactical depth. Walk forward and try to kill the expensive stuff before your troops die enough to lose punch. Pray your Helldrake manages to deal with enemy flyers or you will get hosed.

My guess is that it is going to grow weaker very, very fast as other books come out and writers get bolder.

QFT except :
-Big strategic abilities on HQs (stealing initiative, redeploying, adding special rules to select units, etc)
-> Huron / Arhiman get to infiltrate d3 units. That's good.

My guess is that it is going to grow weaker very, very fast as other books come out and writers get bolder.
I hope your guess is wrong, and that things will balance out. Fighting a GK force is really a pain in the ass right now: 20 points psykering PW+SB wearing MEQ is a bit over the top.

On the "do not have" list, you forgot EW MC. It really pains me to see a 280 points flying DP going down to a single shot.

 Seb wrote:


QFT except :
-Big strategic abilities on HQs (stealing initiative, redeploying, adding special rules to select units, etc)
-> Huron / Arhiman get to infiltrate d3 units. That's good.

On the "do not have" list, you forgot EW MC. It really pains me to see a 280 points flying DP going down to a single shot.

True, but note that the ability comes in place of a Warlord Trait, while other HQs like Logan, the Khan, Eldrad and so many other have unique strategic abilities AND also roll one on the warlord Table.

On the "do not have" list, there are a ton of stuff I left out. Partly because no army should have everything (though some come close), partly because I had in mind stuff that the armies I face usually have by the bucketload.

As for the codex now falling by the wayside soon, we'll see. I'm waiting until the next Ward Codex to issue a verdict, but I don't dare hope. Not that ward is the main issue, but he is the worst symptom.

QFT except :
-Big strategic abilities on HQs (stealing initiative, redeploying, adding special rules to select units, etc)
-> Huron / Arhiman get to infiltrate d3 units. That's good.

Not really no. It's better than nothing and it certainly makes Huron a real stand out HQ here, but no, it's not good. It's a downgrade form what we use to have. My crying over spilled milk aside, the real issue here (as someone else mentioned) is the complete lack of strategic depth. So far, any of the decent lists you can build with this book (even the so-called "power builds" which I kind of lol at) are all kind of one trick ponies. IF you are looking at this book from a competative stand point (I'm really in it for the fluff but to each his own), you aren't going to build a list that will have success too many times before your opponent learns the counter (which typically doesn't seem hard to figure out). The problem then is that it's not an issue of just an issue of "tweaking" a list your opponents have figured out. The way this book is set up, you're basically going to have to build a brand new one from scratch. It's going to catch up with this codex very quickly and I'm not convinced that the other books are going to have this built in weakness. So in light of that, I would say it's pretty darn hard to call anything in this 'dex "cheese".

Tycho wrote:

QFT except :
-Big strategic abilities on HQs (stealing initiative, redeploying, adding special rules to select units, etc)
-> Huron / Arhiman get to infiltrate d3 units. That's good.

Not really no. It's better than nothing and it certainly makes Huron a real stand out HQ here, but no, it's not good. It's a downgrade form what we use to have. My crying over spilled milk aside, the real issue here (as someone else mentioned) is the complete lack of strategic depth. So far, any of the decent lists you can build with this book (even the so-called "power builds" which I kind of lol at) are all kind of one trick ponies. IF you are looking at this book from a competative stand point (I'm really in it for the fluff but to each his own), you aren't going to build a list that will have success too many times before your opponent learns the counter (which typically doesn't seem hard to figure out). The problem then is that it's not an issue of just an issue of "tweaking" a list your opponents have figured out. The way this book is set up, you're basically going to have to build a brand new one from scratch. It's going to catch up with this codex very quickly and I'm not convinced that the other books are going to have this built in weakness. So in light of that, I would say it's pretty darn hard to call anything in this 'dex "cheese".

The issue for me is that their is no stratigic depth, no real competitive builds and poor fluff options.

I can't built a very versitle force
I can't don't have options for being competitive, its all one way or not at all
I can't make a variety of fluffy lists

It is just a bad book.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Blood angles are overpowerd?

No, I think they're just acute.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Blood angles are overpowerd?

No, I think they're just acute.

Don't be so obtuse.

 Evertras wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Blood angles are overpowerd?

No, I think they're just acute.

Don't be so obtuse.

Maybe you're right.

CSM aren't overpowered; they're pretty middle-of-the-road in most settings...

Well, I think its possible to build strong CSM armies relying on some of the units (as said Lord, CSM, Havocs, Helldrakes, Bikers, Spawn, Oblits), while other units are just meh.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:

 Evertras wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Blood angles are overpowerd?

No, I think they're just acute.

Don't be so obtuse.

Maybe you're right.

It was just a reflex.

I laugh hysterically when tau players realize marking a DP with Marker Lights cause him to become grounded...

Then again, DPs are simply too expensive if not played as Nurgle, even then, still too expensive for what you receive...

GoliothOnline wrote:
I laugh hysterically when tau players realize marking a DP with Marker Lights cause him to become grounded...

Then again, DPs are simply too expensive if not played as Nurgle, even then, still too expensive for what you receive...

Nurgle gives what? He's not getting a toughness bonus if fielded as Nurgle.

 Sephyr wrote:


CSM cheese really pales in comaprison to other cheese out there.

Chaos currently has good access to low-AP melee weapons that strike at regular Initiative, though that is moslty on a couple of named HQs and as some very expensive wargear. Given how much CC has suffered compared to shooting in this edition, this is not really a big advantage.

Then you add the 3++ save that many other armies can throw out (loyalist marines, Necrons) and suddenly AP2 is not even that great for dealing with many deathstars out there.

When it comes to shooting, chaos has the perk of flexible troops that can field a good number of special weapons: double plasma basic marines, melta teams, the works. And Chosen to make sure something really gets dead.

Let's see what Chaos does NOT have:
-Fast land vehicles
-Psychic defense
-Acces to Divination, hands down the best Psyker discipline
-Drop pod or Any real way to guide their Deep Strikes (Dimensional Key is a bad joke)
-Big strategic abilities on HQs (stealing initiative, redeploying, adding special rules to select units, etc)
-Twin-linked things in general
-Any unit-wide 3++ (i.e Storm Shields)
-Open-topped or assault transports other than the Land Raider, or even letting other units have it as a dedicated transport

Chaos is solid right now but it doesn't have much tactical depth. Walk forward and try to kill the expensive stuff before your troops die enough to lose punch. Pray your Helldrake manages to deal with enemy flyers or you will get hosed.

My guess is that it is going to grow weaker very, very fast as other books come out and writers get bolder.

Yeah, the codex needed to be pushed. It really is a case of GW failing to attept to come close to the fluff and all this codex feels like is a tweaked 4th Ed Codex. I will add onto this list, which is a good start.
- Two new Dreads at a time when dreads suck. Needed to be immune to melta to make them playable, not a 5+ Invuln.
- A real Flyer. You compare the Helldrake to a Stormchicken or a Vendetta and realise your getting robbed. Then compare against the Necron flyers. Yeah.
- Anti-Aircraft... for +100pts you can have your 4 ML havoks upgraded to flak missiles, or an Ageis Defence line with an Icaris Lascannon for 85pts. Woot.
- Chaplins and Techpriests (Dark Apostals and Warpsmiths) as Elite Choices instead of only (and thus wasting) a valuable HQ slot... for 50pts each. Maybe with a thudd gun or something and a curse that effects /any/ terrain feature.
- A Chaos version of everything in the Vanilla Codex (can I re-mention Drop pods and SS here? Maybe a HQ that makes Bikes and Raptors troops?)
- Auto guns and Stubbers? WTF am I playing, Necromunda? At least give them lasgun 'up-grades'. You don't know how dirty I feel saying that...
- Icon bearers that can't be shot out from under me by a MC/character/sniper. Welcome to the world of Ork PK Nobz
- I get a billion random tables, but nothing for a generic demon weapon? Thanks.

I have a few more, but it is more based off of rumors from the new DA codex (plasma stuff). Hard to speculate on rumors.

End of the day, it is better than the old codex and it is playable, specially with Allies. Why take fake Guard when you can have the real thing, with Vendettas? Is it overpowered? Noooooooo. But it has more than 1 build to be competitive and that is something.

 wuestenfux wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:
I laugh hysterically when tau players realize marking a DP with Marker Lights cause him to become grounded...

Then again, DPs are simply too expensive if not played as Nurgle, even then, still too expensive for what you receive...

Nurgle gives what? He's not getting a toughness bonus if fielded as Nurgle.

Bonus to cover saves, at the cost of S&P

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:
I laugh hysterically when tau players realize marking a DP with Marker Lights cause him to become grounded...

Then again, DPs are simply too expensive if not played as Nurgle, even then, still too expensive for what you receive...

Nurgle gives what? He's not getting a toughness bonus if fielded as Nurgle.

Bonus to cover saves, at the cost of S&P

A cover save for a winged DP is hard to get, he'll be exposed to the enemy most of the time.

 wuestenfux wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:
I laugh hysterically when tau players realize marking a DP with Marker Lights cause him to become grounded...

Then again, DPs are simply too expensive if not played as Nurgle, even then, still too expensive for what you receive...

Nurgle gives what? He's not getting a toughness bonus if fielded as Nurgle.

Bonus to cover saves, at the cost of S&P

A cover save for a winged DP is hard to get, he'll be exposed to the enemy most of the time.

Jinking gives you cover.

I'm still at a loss for why 1k sons have a 3+/4++ but their DP... only a 3+/5++ (re-rolling 1s)

Did the maths, the 4++ is better...
DPs became too expensive to justify taking them any more, and they pop to S10 weaponry? WTF?

B!tching aside the codex is not cheesy or over powered, specific builds can be but thats specific builds (normally builds made for that)

 wuestenfux wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:
I laugh hysterically when tau players realize marking a DP with Marker Lights cause him to become grounded...

Then again, DPs are simply too expensive if not played as Nurgle, even then, still too expensive for what you receive...

Nurgle gives what? He's not getting a toughness bonus if fielded as Nurgle.

Bonus to cover saves, at the cost of S&P

A cover save for a winged DP is hard to get, he'll be exposed to the enemy most of the time.

Then you dont play with enough ruins, or other obects which can cover 25% of the daemon prince. Also, Jink

This codex is far from overpowered. Given that you're playing at 750 points, I'm guessing the gaming group is a bunch of noobs who aren't really qualified to judge what is overpowered and what isn't. 750 points isn't even real 40K, the game's tenuous semblance of balance falls apart at very low or very high point levels.

 Necroagogo wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:

 Evertras wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Blood angles are overpowerd?

No, I think they're just acute.

Don't be so obtuse.

Maybe you're right.

It was just a reflex.

Finally we got that straight.

The new Chaos codex is anything but cheesey. I find that the codex is well balanced and brings in some great new additions to the army ( though I would love to have seen drop pods for chaos) If they feel a Heldrake is a big cheesey deal, I would like to point out the cheesetastic ability that Space Wolves have to take four rune priests all armed with jump packs and jaws. that is the very definition of cheese.