Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

After a few games with my new Chaos Space Marine codex and some good wins, my opponents are complaining of the codex being overpowered and cheesy. They hate the Heldrake and flying Daemon Prince, and most of all hate that we have access to AP2 Melee weapons that are not unwieldy. I personally believe this codex is quite reasonably balances and has nothing on where Space Wolfs, Grey Knights, Necrons and Blood Angles stand in relation to cheese and being overpowered.

Do you guys think the new Chaos Codex is just too over the top and cheesy?

Meh, It's a new Codex and they are always 'OP'. Until your opponents find ways of beating it It's just nice to see Chaos get the update they deserved. I've never been a fan, but i'm seriously considering an Ork/Nurgle love in as a project for my new Ork army....allies are great

As far as comparing Chaos to Space Wolves, Blood Angels and the like, well i'm not sure. For me SW and BA are top tier right now and that shows.

lol 1 weapon doesnt make an army OP. If they have problems with 1 flying MC , then they never played against a 4-5 MC demon army or dual foc nids which offten have 3-4 flying MCs too. Drakes op ? against footslogging marines without drop pods , without IG ally , without anti aircraft units , without own flyers , probably , but who plays like that . Seems to be the case of your friends having 5th ed armies not wanting to update them .

I guess they don't know how many points said Daemon Prince is? Or the fact that Daemon Weapons have a chance of wounding the wielder and keeping him from attacking that round? Or the fact that a Helldrake with baleflamer can be taken down fairly easily by a flyer?

No, It's no OP in any way. It has some powerful bits for sure, but nothing game breaking. The thing about chaos is that most of their abilities are a double edged sword. The boon table gives you a chance at something awesome, but you could also end up getting turned into a spawn, or get absolutely nothing. Flying princes can be mean, but they can cost 300 points. There's lots of people that think that the new codex is a little bit anti-climatic, although I think that they were hoping too much for a return the the glory days of the 3.5 book.

I dont think its an OP book.


There is some cool stuff in the book book nothing game breaking.

It's hard to see the book as particularly game breaking. It's got some tough stuff, but nothing that would be particularly noteworthy given the metagame of the last 3 and a half years.

I will say that they haven't bought anything new for sixth addition until the other day when they decided that they would try and buy an ageis defence lines to deal with my flyers

 GimbleMuggernaught wrote:
I guess they don't know how many points said Daemon Prince is? Or the fact that Daemon Weapons have a chance of wounding the wielder and keeping him from attacking that round? Or the fact that a Helldrake with baleflamer can be taken down fairly easily by a flyer?

No, It's no OP in any way. It has some powerful bits for sure, but nothing game breaking. The thing about chaos is that most of their abilities are a double edged sword. The boon table gives you a chance at something awesome, but you could also end up getting turned into a spawn, or get absolutely nothing. Flying princes can be mean, but they can cost 300 points. There's lots of people that think that the new codex is a little bit anti-climatic, although I think that they were hoping too much for a return the the glory days of the 3.5 book.

Minor point, but the wielder can still attack, he's just WS1 for that round.

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:
After a few games with my new Chaos Space Marine codex and some good wins, my opponents are complaining of the codex being overpowered and cheesy. They hate the Heldrake and flying Daemon Prince, and most of all hate that we have access to AP2 Melee weapons that are not unwieldy. I personally believe this codex is quite reasonably balances and has nothing on where Space Wolfs, Grey Knights, Necrons and Blood Angles stand in relation to cheese and being overpowered.

Do you guys think the new Chaos Codex is just too over the top and cheesy?

Not cheesy, just new. If they are whining about the DP and the Heldrake, just spam spawn and Juggernaut Lords with slaanesh CSM with extra attacks and FNP at them, see if they like that better.

To the OP:

I would be curious to see your list and the list of one of your opponents. There are three multiple-GT winning players in my club, all three play chaos (lol I'm the only Chaos player without one actually ). Not a single one of them has said they think this is an OP or even just a regularly powerful army. They initially didn't like the codex at all but are now playing it because it challenges them. There are certainly some tough builds, but much like the last book, they typically revolve around Nurgle, and tend to be one trick ponies. So consider that. Three grand tournament winners are playing the army because it gives them a challenge against the other lesser calliber players in the club ...

Last game two games I played were as follows...
750 point chaos vs blood angles
Chaos Lord
Power armour
Ichore blood
Melta bombs
Axe of blind fury
Mark of khorne
Veterans of the war

9 berserkers
Veterans of the long war
1 skull champion
Power sword
Gift of mutation

9 chaos marines
Plasma gun
Las cannon
1 aspiring champion

Heldrake
Baleflamer

Librarian
Terminator Armour
Stave
Sanguine sword
And some other power which gave D3 extra attacks

Tacticle squad of 10
Las cannon
Plasma gun

Tacticle squad of 10
Las cannon
Plasma gun

Predator
All las cannons

Next game was 1250 chaos vs his grey knights
Chaos Lord
Power armour
Ichore blood
Melta bombs
Axe of blind fury
Mark of khorne
Veterans of the war

9 berserkers
Veterans of the long war
1 skull champion
Power sword
Gift of mutation

9 chaos marines
Plasma gun
Las cannon
1 aspiring champion

9 chaos marines
Plasma gun
Melta gun
1 aspiring champion

6 terminators
5 axes
1 chain fist
Heavy flamer
1 terminator champion
Pair of lightning claws

Heldrake
Baleflamer

Grand master
Terminator armour
Halberd
Psycannon
Bunch of funky grenades

Brother captain
Terminator armour
Halberd
Bunch of funky grenades

Strike squad of 10
1 hammer
A few halberds
2 psycannons

5 terminators
1 hammer
4 halberds
1 or 2 psycannons

Dreadknight
Heavy psycannon
Psyflamer thing
Big sword

I won both games ( not trying to gloat). These games were against the same player, I think I got his lists right from memory.

Blood angles are overpowerd?

 labmouse42 wrote:
Blood angles are overpowerd?

Yeah I bet.

 ShatteredBlade wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Blood angles are overpowerd?

Yeah I bet.

Not really.

The new CSM codex contains some very effective units, like Lord on bike, basic CSM troops, Bikers, Spawn, and Havocs.
There are some complementary units out there, like Helldrake, Obliterators, Termies, and Sorcerers.
The rest is questionable, like DP (very expensive and instantly killable), Cultists (Zombies are better), and the Fiends (they die if three hull points are stripped off).

 wuestenfux wrote:

 ShatteredBlade wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Blood angles are overpowerd?

Yeah I bet.

Not really.

The new CSM codex contains some very effective units, like Lord on bike, basic CSM troops, Bikers, Spawn, and Havocs.
There are some complementary units out there, like Helldrake, Obliterators, Termies, and Sorcerers.
The rest is questionable, like DP (very expensive and instantly killable), Cultists (Zombies are better), and the Fiends (they die if three hull points are stripped off).

I agree with you there... I really want Fiends not to such hahah... gonna get a pair to paint and likely shelve

They do know they only need to hit the flying DP to ground it, right?

"This squad isn't doing anything right now, 10 bolter shots into that DP... Oh look, I got a 6, looks like he isn't flying anymore."

Then he just becomes a really expensive T5 model.

 Avatar 720 wrote:
They do know they only need to hit the flying DP to ground it, right?

"This squad isn't doing anything right now, 10 bolter shots into that DP... Oh look, I got a 6, looks like he isn't flying anymore."

Then he just becomes a really expensive T5 model.

1 str10 hit and he is down for the count

The new CSM book is a good, balanced codex. It's not nercon broken, or GK broken, or Tzeentch demons broken. Tell your friends to man up or shut up.

Just ignore them, the codex isn't overpowered.

Best codex printed since DE in terms of both balance and fluff.

*Great internal balance with only a few units and upgrades being just 'bad'.
*Sits right in the upper-middle of the army teiring. Not broken, not weak. They are overall very cost effective while not being particularly strong with individual units.
*Fluff stayed pretty much true to course. I wish they had a few new named ICs to expand the fluff, but what we have now is decent. No ward moments but not much changed.

There's actually a lot of bad upgrades and units. The Mark of Tzeentch for example, is, except in a couple of special cases, universally overcosted. Defiler got hit with a 33% price increase when they were already considered overcosted before.

The fluff is...meh, it's mostly copy-pasta and fails to evoke the same feeling of an ancient dread enemy that previous works have done and really just portrays them as spikey "bad" marines more than anything else.

 Vaktathi wrote:
There's actually a lot of bad upgrades and units. The Mark of Tzeentch for example, is, except in a couple of special cases, universally overcosted. Defiler got hit with a 33% price increase when they were already considered overcosted before.

The fluff is...meh, it's mostly copy-pasta and fails to evoke the same feeling of an ancient dread enemy that previous works have done and really just portrays them as spikey "bad" marines more than anything else.

there are a ton of crap upgrades and units that are not internally balanced at all.

Mutilators
Possessed
Sonic Blasters
Thousand Sons
Really most of the elites section(reaper autocannon is 25 points on a terminator)
Raptors compared to bikes
Cultists(more expensive than guard for less functionality)
Dark Apostles(chaos lords are better and cheaper)
Warpsmiths(what is the point of this guy)



The fluff is also pasta, and not even the good pasta. The art and photos arent up to par either and the book costs $50

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:
After a few games with my new Chaos Space Marine codex and some good wins, my opponents are complaining of the codex being overpowered and cheesy. They hate the Heldrake and flying Daemon Prince, and most of all hate that we have access to AP2 Melee weapons that are not unwieldy. I personally believe this codex is quite reasonably balances and has nothing on where Space Wolfs, Grey Knights, Necrons and Blood Angles stand in relation to cheese and being overpowered.

Do you guys think the new Chaos Codex is just too over the top and cheesy?

Which weapon is AP2 but not unwieldy?

MakesKidsKill wrote:

Which weapon is AP2 but not unwieldy?

The Daemon Weapons (in this case, the Axe of Blind Fury).

To the OP:
Looking at your opponent's lists, I can understand his anger. Footmarines + baledrake = dead marines. But it is his fault, and not the sign of the CSM codex's "OPness" .

MakesKidsKill wrote:

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:
After a few games with my new Chaos Space Marine codex and some good wins, my opponents are complaining of the codex being overpowered and cheesy. They hate the Heldrake and flying Daemon Prince, and most of all hate that we have access to AP2 Melee weapons that are not unwieldy. I personally believe this codex is quite reasonably balances and has nothing on where Space Wolfs, Grey Knights, Necrons and Blood Angles stand in relation to cheese and being overpowered.

Do you guys think the new Chaos Codex is just too over the top and cheesy?

Which weapon is AP2 but not unwieldy?

it's not like those are particularly special.

newcrons have warsythes
DE have huskblades, klaives and demiklaves
Everybody has rending.

SW termies pay 30pts for assault cannons so 25 for reaper isnt that bad really.

Warpsmiths let you keep your vehicles going, and can weaken enemy bunkers so are far from pointless.

hobojebus wrote:
SW termies pay 30pts for assault cannons so 25 for reaper isnt that bad really.

The assault cannon has 2 additional shots and Rending, and is still seen as a mediocre buy.

Warpsmiths let you keep your vehicles going, and can weaken enemy bunkers so are far from pointless.

Warpsmiths as vehicle repair units are way too expensive to justify their cost, and if they're doing that they're not doing anything else. It's also not like they're terribly effective at it and can't be everywhere they need to be at once. They also cannot weaken terrain the opponent purchased and does nothing to buildings, so it does nothing to aegis lines or bastions. They pay for a whole lot of mediocre and mutually exclusive abilities.

They hate that there is the axe of blind fury which is ap 2 and attacks in initiative order and there is kharn who ignore unwieldy and still get ap 2. Not to mention Abbadon

Avatar - you do realise you have to then fail a marine save to actually BE grounded?

And that next turn it can fly again