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TaddleMunkey wrote:
Well you would resolve the attacks based on what the Spirit Leech rule says. Take the leadership test and for every wound you are over you take a wound. Those wounds would then go to the wound pool no?

The unit takes X wounds.
Find guidance on how to populate the wound pool. Find guidance on how to allocate from the wound pool. Do so without referencing anything in the section starting on page 12 as that section deals solely with shooting attacks.

The thing is the attack is done in the shooting phase so you would then just make him take the leadership test and then have to go to the BRB in reference to what you would do in a shooting phase for the wounds. The small codex always trumps the BRB in relation to rules doesn't it?

Do you think thats how they would allow this attack to be done in a tournament? If not how would they word it to a player so that they can't use it?

TaddleMunkey wrote:
The small codex always trumps the BRB in relation to rules doesn't it?

Only when there is a conflict.

TaddleMunkey wrote:
The thing is the attack is done in the shooting phase so you would then just make him take the leadership test and then have to go to the BRB in reference to what you would do in a shooting phase for the wounds. The small codex always trumps the BRB in relation to rules doesn't it?

Do you think thats how they would allow this attack to be done in a tournament? If not how would they word it to a player so that they can't use it?

Ther is no "what you do in the shooting phase for wounds"

THere IS "here is how you deal with wounds FROM SHOOTING"

There is a difference.

In a tournament I have always simply ruled that Doom, Mawloc are just "shooting" powers - so in 6th edition you cannot wound what Doom cannot see around him, for example. This leads to the most consistent application of the rules where otherwise the power would simply not function.

TaddleMunkey wrote:
then have to go to the BRB in reference to what you would do in a shooting phase for the wounds. The small codex always trumps the BRB in relation to rules doesn't it?

Page 12+ deal with shooting attacks. If it's not a shooting attack you cannot reference those sections.

Do you think thats how they would allow this attack to be done in a tournament? If not how would they word it to a player so that they can't use it?

I've seen it done as a shooting attack that doesn't require LoS (and therefore ignoring Out of Sight) or have range restrictions (and therefore ignores the stupid Out of Range change) and I've seen it done as a normal shooting attack being restricted by those two rules.

Check with the TO before you start.

The fact the the FAQ let cover saves be taken against this attack muddied the water and point to it indeed being a shooting attack.

Weirdy in 2 tourney's I've been to the TO simply picked up the codex and said "All units within........bla bla bla" and said the permission to wound is granted by the codex and not to overthink it.

I play the Doom so it was to my advantage. Bottom line no matter how you play it right now, it is HIWPI and not RAW. RAI is debatable, especially concidering the FAQ.

Friendly games to avoid the drama I play it as a shooting attack with no deny the witch. Tournament its good to over with the TO first.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

TaddleMunkey wrote:
The thing is the attack is done in the shooting phase so you would then just make him take the leadership test and then have to go to the BRB in reference to what you would do in a shooting phase for the wounds. The small codex always trumps the BRB in relation to rules doesn't it?

Do you think thats how they would allow this attack to be done in a tournament? If not how would they word it to a player so that they can't use it?

Ther is no "what you do in the shooting phase for wounds"

THere IS "here is how you deal with wounds FROM SHOOTING"

There is a difference.

In a tournament I have always simply ruled that Doom, Mawloc are just "shooting" powers - so in 6th edition you cannot wound what Doom cannot see around him, for example. This leads to the most consistent application of the rules where otherwise the power would simply not function.

The logic they are using is Spirit Leech is done in the shooting phase so when you have wounds in the shooting phase the only place you could reference is the BRB under shooting phase for allocate wounds. No where on page 15 does it specify that you have to use shooting attacks to allocate wounds. I see both points here, I just want to know who is the most right and why,

We've given you "why" - because the rules on page 15 are entirely in the context of shooting wounds. You cannot read it any other way, literally, unless you are ignoring / rewriting the rules.

Ask them to show you the exact rules for this attack and allocating wounds. They cannot do so.

TaddleMunkey wrote:
The logic they are using is Spirit Leech is done in the shooting phase so when you have wounds in the shooting phase the only place you could reference is the BRB under shooting phase for allocate wounds. No where on page 15 does it specify that you have to use shooting attacks to allocate wounds. I see both points here, I just want to know who is the most right and why,

The only way to reference the rules on page 15 is to begin on page 12 with a shooting attack.
Referencing page 15 is only allowed with a rule allowing it.
Cite the rule that allows a non shooting attack to reference page 15.

Oh - it doesn't exist? Oh. Well, that'd mean that pretending Spirit Leech is not a shooting attack and can be resolved RAW is incorrect.

They are just going to ask me where it says they CAN'T reference page 15 when relating wounds to a shooting phase.

TaddleMunkey wrote:
They are just going to ask me where it says they CAN'T reference page 15 when relating wounds to a shooting phase.

Where does it say you can't use a flamethrower and melt all their models?

I'm glad you can understand the frustration here lol

TaddleMunkey wrote:
I'm glad you can understand the frustration here lol

Explain to them that 40K is a permissive ruleset. IF he does not understand, then explain the following to him.


The rules don't say I can't place my models back on the board after you've killed them and use them next turn, but that doesn't mean I can do it.

The rules system is permissive: this means you may only do things you are expressly allowed to do or that the rules imply you can do. You are not allowed to do anything else.

I'm not frustrated, I'm showing you the failure in their line of thinking.

In a permissive rule set you must have rules allowing you to do things - meaning you can't skip from rule t rule in the book; you have to have a reason to go there. Normal shooting attacks have a path to page 15. Non-shooting attacks that cause wounds in the shooting phase do not, RAW.

rigeld2 wrote:

TaddleMunkey wrote:
then have to go to the BRB in reference to what you would do in a shooting phase for the wounds. The small codex always trumps the BRB in relation to rules doesn't it?

Page 12+ deal with shooting attacks. If it's not a shooting attack you cannot reference those sections.

Not entirely true. You could reference this section for any special rule that said to use the shooting allocation rules even if it was not a shooting attack. Which is, what I think should be FAQed for Spirit Leech, however GW has not don that yet so we get arguments of how how to shoe horn a 5e special rule in to 6e.

barnowl wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

TaddleMunkey wrote:
then have to go to the BRB in reference to what you would do in a shooting phase for the wounds. The small codex always trumps the BRB in relation to rules doesn't it?

Page 12+ deal with shooting attacks. If it's not a shooting attack you cannot reference those sections.

Not entirely true. You could reference this section for any special rule that said to use the shooting allocation rules even if it was not a shooting attack. Which is, what I think should be FAQed for Spirit Leech, however GW has not don that yet so we get arguments of how how to shoe horn a 5e special rule in to 6e.

Yes, obviously exceptions are special. Reading the thread for context is key.

I've considered using the Landing Pad for several of my lists and I am also a Tyranid player. I've looked over the rules of the landing pad several times and they are very clear. If you want to interpret the rules for yourselves you can. Be my guest. But they are written how they are written. You either follow the rules as I'll describe them or you can play "house rules". That's up to you.

In the T:C, it reads (pg 58):

Spirit Leech: At the beginning of every Shooting phase, including the foe's, every non-vehicle enemy unit within 6" of the Doom of Malan'tai must take a Leadership test on 3D6. If the test is failed the unit suffers a single wound for each point they failed by, with no armor saved allowed.

This happens during the Shooting Phase but no where does it state it as a Shooting Attack. This is a special rule. Hundreds of models in this game have them, you follow them as written.

In the BRB, it reads (pg 115):

Shielded: Units on top of a shielded Skyshleld Landing Pad have a 4+ invulnerable save against enemy Shooting attacks.

If the walls of the Landing Pad are up, it's considered Shielded. This provides 4+ invulnerable save against enemy SHOOTING ATTACKS. Nothing about anything else in game. Not Psychic Maledictions or Assaults or special rules. Only Shooting Attacks (or Psychic Shooting attacks).

In the most recent FAQ, it was stated that the Spirit Leech from a Doom of Malan'tai wounds can be saved by Cover saves (as well as invulnerable). If the model has an invulnerable save, then it can be used to save wounds from Spirit Leech, however, the Landing Pad does not provide this save. The Landing Pad only offers the 4+ if the gates are up and the wounds are made by a Shooting Attack.

Furthermore, it is also argued that the Landing Pad is area terrain. Most area terrain provides cover. However, this is not the case for the Landing Pad.

In the BRB it reads (pg 115):

Terrain Type: Unique. The top surface of the Skyshield Landing Pad is open terrain. To move onto or off of the landing pad counts as moving through difficult terrain.

Open terrain does not provide any cover. You will not get the 4+ Invulnerable save while on top of the Landing Pad, nor will you ever get a cover save while standing on the Landing Pad (from Spirit Leech). Even when moving off and on (which has nothing to do with shooting), it is treated as difficult terrain. Similar to a hill or water, once again, not providing any cover. You could, however, go to ground for a 6+ cover save.

To go into more detail about the Landing Pad and Tyranids specifically, if Termagants are on the Landing Pad and fall under Instinctive Behavior - Lurk, they will run off of it and run towards the nearest Area Terrain (assuming nothing is in range of them to shoot). The Landing Pad is treated as Open Terrain and they cannot sit inside of it without being in Synapse or passing a Leadership test in the Movement Phase.

This is how all the rules read. If you play "house rules" or don't agree with them, you may play with different rules. I simply stated how they read.

Saythings wrote:
I've considered using the Landing Pad for several of my lists and I am also a Tyranid player. I've looked over the rules of the landing pad several times and they are very clear. If you want to interpret the rules for yourselves you can. Be my guest. But they are written how they are written. You either follow the rules as I'll describe them or you can play "house rules". That's up to you.

In the T:C, it reads (pg 58):

Spirit Leech: At the beginning of every Shooting phase, including the foe's, every non-vehicle enemy unit within 6" of the Doom of Malan'tai must take a Leadership test on 3D6. If the test is failed the unit suffers a single wound for each point they failed by, with no armor saved allowed.

This happens during the Shooting Phase but no where does it state it as a Shooting Attack. This is a special rule. Hundreds of models in this game have them, you follow them as written.

In the BRB, it reads (pg 115):

Shielded: Units on top of a shielded Skyshleld Landing Pad have a 4+ invulnerable save against enemy Shooting attacks.

If the walls of the Landing Pad are up, it's considered Shielded. This provides 4+ invulnerable save against enemy SHOOTING ATTACKS. Nothing about anything else in game. Not Psychic Maledictions or Assaults or special rules. Only Shooting Attacks (or Psychic Shooting attacks).

In the most recent FAQ, it was stated that the Spirit Leech from a Doom of Malan'tai wounds can be saved by Cover saves (as well as invulnerable). If the model has an invulnerable save, then it can be used to save wounds from Spirit Leech, however, the Landing Pad does not provide this save. The Landing Pad only offers the 4+ if the gates are up and the wounds are made by a Shooting Attack.

And if the Doom's ability is not a shooting attack you have no instruction on how to populate the wound pool, and Spirit Leech does nothing.

Furthermore, it is also argued that the Landing Pad is area terrain. Most area terrain provides cover. However, this is not the case for the Landing Pad.

In the BRB it reads (pg 115):

Terrain Type: Unique. The top surface of the Skyshield Landing Pad is open terrain. To move onto or off of the landing pad counts as moving through difficult terrain.

Open terrain does not provide any cover. You will not get then 4+ Invulnerable save while on top of the Landing Pad, nor will you ever get a cover save while standing on the Landing Pad (from Spirit Leech). Even when moving off and on (which has nothing to do with shooting), it is treated as difficult terrain. Similar to a hill or water, once again, not providing any cover.

To go into more detail about the Landing Pad and Tyranids specifically, if Termagants are on the Landing Pad and fall under Instinctive Behavior - Lurk, they will run off of it and run towards the nearest Area Terrain (assuming nothing is in range of them to shoot). The Landing Pad is treated as Open Terrain and they cannot sit inside of it without being in Synapse or passing a Leadership test in the Movement Phase.

This is how all the rules read. If you play "house rules" or don't agree with them, you may play with different rules. I simply stated how they read.

The underlined is simply not true in all cases. you will get the 4+ for any shooting attacks (More about the doom and shooting attack below) and if the doom uses Spirit Leech and he is not on the pad you will get a cover save.

You are correct that the pad is open terrain, but if the models on top of the pad are obscured from the point of view of the firing model (Say a unit on the ground shooting a unit on the pad) then they will get a cover save if they are obscured.

Plus, the rules for the pad say that you get the 4+ invuln from shooting attacks when on top of the pad when the pad is in Shielded mode.

So either:
1) Spirit Leech is a shooting attack and does not break any rules
Or
2) Spirit Leech is not a shooting attack and you can never populate the wound pool and Spirit Leech does nothing.

1 breaks the least rules and does not render the ability useless.

Saythings - please provide rules to allow you to populate the wound pool. Note you are disallowed from using anything from page 15, as that is only applicable to shooting attacks.

Or, you can realise that allowing the Doom to do anything with SL is a houserule, and we can talk abotu the rest at that point

Saythings wrote:
I've considered using the Landing Pad for several of my lists and I am also a Tyranid player. I've looked over the rules of the landing pad several times and they are very clear. If you want to interpret the rules for yourselves you can. Be my guest. But they are written how they are written. You either follow the rules as I'll describe them or you can play "house rules". That's up to you.

In the T:C, it reads (pg 58):

Spirit Leech: At the beginning of every Shooting phase, including the foe's, every non-vehicle enemy unit within 6" of the Doom of Malan'tai must take a Leadership test on 3D6. If the test is failed the unit suffers a single wound for each point they failed by, with no armor saved allowed.

This happens during the Shooting Phase but no where does it state it as a Shooting Attack. This is a special rule. Hundreds of models in this game have them, you follow them as written.

As written, Spirit Leech has no method of allocating wounds. If you disagree, cite the rules please.

Furthermore, it is also argued that the Landing Pad is area terrain. Most area terrain provides cover. However, this is not the case for the Landing Pad.

Most area terrain provides cover (meaning - not all) and therefore something that does not provide cover is not area terrain?

I think the point saythings is making, is that it bypass the normal wound pool mechanic. No reason for it to actaully use the shooting wound pool. This does as rigeld2 points out set up a problem.

TFG says: Doom wounds but can't allocate any of the wounds. Per strict rules lawyering this the YMDC position.

RAI says: It populates a unique pool that is used and emptied before normal shooting phase actions. This is in keeping with how the codex originally worked and about the only way to keep Doom functional

While it is not a shooting attack, CC attack, or Nova Power (which it closely resembles) GW has indicated that it does still get to allocate wounds by providing a FAQ that states you can take cover saves from Spirit Leech. Unfortubnately they let it up to us to figure out between now and the next codex

Special rules are written and must be followed as such. Spirit Leech causes wounds because that is how it is read. It tells us no Armor saves are allowed. Then a FAQ was introduced and it stated Cover Saves are allowed.

In order to receive cover saves, they must be in Terrain that provides Cover. Open terrain does NOT provide cover. The Landing Pad reads are a Unique piece of terrain and it clearly states it counts as open terrain. If it was a shooting attack, you could debate whether actual models use true LOS or not. However, the Spirit Leech, like hundred of models, is a unique special rule and must be treated as such. It is not a shooting test and it adds wounds to the wound pool because the rule states that the unit takes wound for each point they fail by.

I said most terrain provides cover. I worded it as most because some count the field of play to be terrain. It is open ground or open terrian. This provides no cover, there is simply nothing to hide behind. This is actually how the rules on the Landing Pad read. Treat the landing pad as if it was open ground. The Landing Pad can't provide cover. You can argue if a model is not in LOS from a shooting attack because in the BRB a unit shooting another unit must have true LOS. However, since the Landing Pad is open terrain, if the model shooting can see the unit targetted, it will not get cover, regardless of how obscured it is. Open terrain does not provide cover. LOS is a completely different topic that is related to Shooting. LOS is not necessary for this special rule. The Doom simply needs to be within 6" of the unit taking the Leadership Test.

Spirit Leech is not a shooting attack. It is a special rule. A special rule with special properties. Until Spirit Leech itself is FAQ, you must treat it as written. For each point the unit fails its Leadership Check by, it takes a wound.

Saythings wrote:
Spirit Leech is not a shooting attack. It is a special rule. A special rule with special properties. Until Spirit Leech itself is FAQ, you must treat it as written. For each point the unit fails its Leadership Check by, it takes a wound.

Yes, the unit takes a wound. Great. No one has argued that.

Now - it's not a shooting attack. How do you allocate the wound?

There is no written rules for Wound Allocation of Spirit Leech; I'd imagine it'd be up to you and your opponent, or a TO if you're in a tournament. Everything in 6th edition points to models closest. Every rule for which model you should take off (short of a barrage weapon) states you take off models closest. This is consistent with shooting, psychic powers, and CC. You could even argue the back of the unit if you wanted to, but I'd imagine your opponent would choose models closest to get out of the 6" for the following shooting phase.

The whole argument of this thread was whether or not they get the invulnerable save. So we agreed, they don't get invulnerable and they don't get cover saves on open terrain because Spirit Leech is not a shooting attack. It is a special rule. This special rule, without the aid of a FAQ, wounds the enemy unit. It's up to the people playing or the TO for where you're taking the wounds. However, in every aspect of 6th, you'd take off models closest.

This thread shifted from Invulnerable Saves to Cover Saves to Wound Allocation. The first two is answered 100% by RAW. The Landing Pad will not protect units from Spirit Leech, either from Invulnerable Saves OR Cover Saves. It is not a shooting attack. It is a special rule. The third part, Wound Allocation, is the tricky part. But if you agree with 1 and 2, it's up to the player's digression where you take the wounds from. You could randomize it between all models if you wanted to. But the wounds will happen regardless.

Saythings wrote:
There is no written rules for Wound Allocation of Spirit Leech; I'd imagine it'd be up to you and your opponent, or a TO if you're in a tournament. Everything in 6th edition points to models closest. Every rule for which model you should take off (short of a barrage weapon) states you take off models closest. This is consistent with shooting, psychic powers, and CC. You could even argue the back of the unit if you wanted to, but I'd imagine your opponent would choose models closest to get out of the 6" for the following shooting phase.

Right - nothing written. So either you treat it as a Shooting/CC attack (Shooting making more sense) or you make up rules. One option makes sense, the other is making stuff up.

The whole argument of this thread was whether or not they get the invulnerable save. So we agreed, they don't get invulnerable and they don't get cover saves on open terrain because Spirit Leech is not a shooting attack. It is a special rule. This special rule, without the aid of a FAQ, wounds the enemy unit. It's up to the people playing or the TO for where you're taking the wounds. However, in every aspect of 6th, you'd take off models closest.

There's actually precedent for a non-shooting attack to cause Wounds that are allocated.
Soul Blaze.
And using that precedent, you're wrong about what models are removed.

This thread shifted from Invulnerable Saves to Cover Saves to Wound Allocation. The first two is answered 100% by RAW. The Landing Pad will not protect units from Spirit Leech, either from Invulnerable Saves OR Cover Saves. It is not a shooting attack. It is a special rule. The third part, Wound Allocation, is the tricky part. But if you agree with 1 and 2, it's up to the player's digression where you take the wounds from. You could randomize it between all models if you wanted to. But the wounds will happen regardless.

Your bolded point is untrue RAW.

Alright. I'm going to assume whenever you play a Tyranid player, you're going to tell them Spirit Leech is useless. You'll also tell them in the transition between 5th and 6th edition the rules for the Doom became unclear. He will except your explanation and the Doom won't use Spirit Leech. Let me know how that goes!

I'd rather not spend anymore time arguing over the rules that don't clearly explain one way or another. I would much rather wait for the new Codex or another FAQ to come that explains this predicament. For all purposes, I clearly explained the ONLY rules that ARE given:

I explained that Spirit Leech is a special rule.
I explained that Spirit Leech has no armor saves.
I explained that Spirit Leech has cover saves.
I explained that Spirit Leech does not count has shooting (as it is a special rule).
I explained that Spirit Leech effects units within 6" (regardless of LOS).
I explained that the Skyshield Landing Pad provides 4+ Invulnerable Save to Shooting Attacks.
I explained that the Skyshield Landing Pad is open terrain.
I explained that open terrain gives no cover save.
I explained that you need true LOS to shoot (but Spirit Leech is not a Shooting Attack)
I, also, explained there are not rules (currently written) for this particular special rule for Wound Allocation.

Your way: There is no written rule on how Spirit Leech works in 6th. There is no 100%-correct way to proceed. You interpret a lack of rules as a loop hole that renders a special rule worthless.

My way: I understand that 6th edition has affected a "5 edition" special rule. I read the BRB and C:T, I do not pick and choose what I read in each. I clearly state what rules are written. I explain how each rule breaks down until you can not break them down anymore. At this point in time, there is no wound allocation for Spirit Leech in 6th edition. However the case may be, all the rules I listed still apply.

In summary, wound allocation is not clear on Spirit Leech (in 6th edition), but all the rules I listed are, in fact, 100% accurate.

Saythings wrote:
Alright. I'm going to assume whenever you play a Tyranid player, you're going to tell them Spirit Leech is useless. You'll also tell them in the transition between 5th and 6th edition the rules for the Doom became unclear. He will except your explanation and the Doom won't use Spirit Leech. Let me know how that goes!

I am a Tyranid player. Don't assume bias where there is none, and don't assume that RAW is HIWPI either. 2 fails so far.

Your way: There is no written rule on how Spirit Leech works in 6th. There is no 100% correct way to proceed. You interpret a lack of rules as a loop hole that renders a special rule worthless.

My way: I understand that 6th edition has effected a "5 edition" special rule. I read the BRB and C:T, I do not pick and choose what I read in each. I clearly state what rules are written. I explain how each rule breaks down until you can not break them down anymore. At this point in time, there is no wound allocation for Spirit Leech in 6th edition. However the case may be, all the rules I listed still apply. Furthermore, wound allocation is not clear on Spirit Leech (in 6th edition), but all the rules I listed are, in fact, 100% accurate.

So... Your way and my way aren't different at all. What's your point again?

No bias. You can play Tyranids all you like, and you could also play them incorrectly. I forgot Tyranid players can't play other Tyranid players.

I'm playing by how the rules are written. Not by what rules aren't written. The point is there is no need to argue this anymore until 6th C:T or another FAQ comes out.

Saythings wrote:
No bias. You can play Tyranids all you like, and you could also play them incorrectly. I forgot Tyranid players can't play other Tyranid players.

Damn, there's no orkmoticon rolling his eyes.

I'm playing by how the rules are written. Not by what rules aren't written.

So you're playing that Spirit Leech can't allocate wounds?
It's a permissive rule set. You only have permission to do what the rules say you can.
If you're playing by what rules are written you have no rules allowing you to allocate Spirit Leech's wounds.

rigeld2 wrote:

Saythings wrote:
No bias. You can play Tyranids all you like, and you could also play them incorrectly. I forgot Tyranid players can't play other Tyranid players.

Damn, there's no orkmoticon rolling his eyes.

I'm playing by how the rules are written. Not by what rules aren't written.

So you're playing that Spirit Leech can't allocate wounds?
It's a permissive rule set. You only have permission to do what the rules say you can.
If you're playing by what rules are written you have no rules allowing you to allocate Spirit Leech's wounds.

Just because this is a RAW forum doesn't mean you have to be mean....

We can all agree there is no RAW for this topic, Codex gives me permission to wound a unit, BRB says I can't allocate those wounds, however doesn't say what to do with un-allocated wounds from non CC/Shooting, thus the game ends there. DRAW.

Or we revert to............

THE GOLDEN RULE

Discuss first, and/or talk to your TO.