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Or, as people have pointed out - just treat it as a shooting attack. So out of sight applies, out of range, and most importsantly it is consistent with 6th edition.

Or you could play that you want a special exemption, and unlike other attacks in 6th get to allocate to models out of LOS. At that point a reasonable compromise is the first position, as the correct *rules* way is that SL does nothing.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Or, as people have pointed out - just treat it as a shooting attack. So out of sight applies, out of range, and most importsantly it is consistent with 6th edition.

The only reason I disagree with that is because of Soul Blaze. They are different of course - Spirit Leech has an origin (obviously) and Soul Blaze doesn't, but there is precedent for a special rule to cause wounds and not be resolved as a shooting attack.

rigeld2 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Or, as people have pointed out - just treat it as a shooting attack. So out of sight applies, out of range, and most importsantly it is consistent with 6th edition.

The only reason I disagree with that is because of Soul Blaze. They are different of course - Spirit Leech has an origin (obviously) and Soul Blaze doesn't, but there is precedent for a special rule to cause wounds and not be resolved as a shooting attack.

But only where the special rule tells you how to determine this. SL is more like a blast shooting attack then it is soul blaze or something similar.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Or, as people have pointed out - just treat it as a shooting attack. So out of sight applies, out of range, and most importsantly it is consistent with 6th edition.

The only reason I disagree with that is because of Soul Blaze. They are different of course - Spirit Leech has an origin (obviously) and Soul Blaze doesn't, but there is precedent for a special rule to cause wounds and not be resolved as a shooting attack.

But only where the special rule tells you how to determine this. SL is more like a blast shooting attack then it is soul blaze or something similar.

Don't get me wrong - I understand where you're coming from. I just don't see it as an absolute-must-be truth after realizing how Soul Blaze works.

Go-go Gadget: Updated Tyranid FAQ!
Wonder twin Powers Activate!!; Form of: 6th Tyranid Codex!

This is the only way to end this thread

Least we can agree that the Spirit Leech is unaffected by the Landing Pad! Thread sucessful!
The question is: can Spirit Leech wound in 6th edition? (Look at first 2 lines of this post for more detail)

Saythings wrote:
Least we can agree that the Spirit Leech is unaffected by the Landing Pad! Thread sucessful!

It's amusing you think that.
If you treat it like a Shooting attack (nos' platform) there is no reason to deny the Invul save.

There is reason to think shooting. You made that clear. You also made it clear that there is no wound allocation. So it simply didn't work in 6th. If you are willing to count it as a shooting attack, then should be just as willing to treat it as a unique would pool.

You're reading into rules that don't exist. The BRB even tells you, don't forget to have fun. Read that rule and stop being TFG.

IMO, if it happens during the shooting phase whether a 'shooting' attack or not you have permission to allocate wounds as per the shooting phase> Wound allocation section. I've looked it over a few times and I really can't see why 'Wound allocation' only applies to 'shooting' attacks.

I may be missing something. The wording of wound allocation does not specify any type of attack specifically it gives permission to allocate wounds to, only those happening during the shooting phase.

Saythings wrote:
There is reason to think shooting. You made that clear. You also made it clear that there is no wound allocation. So it simply didn't work in 6th. If you are willing to count it as a shooting attack, then should be just as willing to treat it as a unique would pool.

IE a non shooting attack? Sure - that's possible. But it requires creating more rules than just assuming it's a shooting attack.

You're reading into rules that don't exist. The BRB even tells you, don't forget to have fun. Read that rule and stop being TFG.

No, I'm not reading into anything. At all. You've agreed it doesn't work as written and have put forward one way of handling it (that requires making up rules).
Nos has another method - that requires making up no rules but means that the Skyshield invul works.
I have another method - that requires making up no rules.

I'm not saying your method is incorrect, I'm saying that there is no consensus like you wanted to pretend there was.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nem wrote:
IMO, if it happens during the shooting phase whether a 'shooting' attack or not you have permission to allocate wounds as per the shooting phase> Wound allocation section. I've looked it over a few times and I really can't see why 'Wound allocation' only applies to 'shooting' attacks.

I may be missing something. The wording of wound allocation does not specify any type of attack specifically it gives permission to allocate wounds to, only those happening during the shooting phase.

Start at page 12. Allocate Wounds and Remove Casualties is part of the Shooting process (step 5).

Hi Rig

Problem is, I see the permission to allocate wounds specifically mentioned for Mawloc's terror of the deep under this 'shooting process'.
This grants permission to allocate wounds via random allocation for special rules which do not follow the normal 1-4 process?
Mawlocs TOTD - these wounds are allocated during the Movement phase, this pretty much opens up the random allocation method in the Shooting Phase to pertain to more than a 'shooting attack'.

Nem wrote:
Hi Rig

Problem is, I see the permission to allocate wounds specifically mentioned for Mawloc's terror of the deep under this 'shooting process'.
This grants permission to allocate wounds via random allocation for special rules which do not follow the normal 1-4 process?
Mawlocs TOTD - these wounds are allocated during the Movement phase, this pretty much opens up the random allocation method in the Shooting Phase to pertain to more than a 'shooting attack'.

You're looking at it wrong - while the Mawloc's TFTD is mentioned as an example under Random Allocation by the rules there's no way for it to actually "get there".
To make the rules work, it makes sense for it be able to do Random Allocation - but by the RAW it just doesn't work.

Hi Rig, I get there via the special rule, I am given permission to do everything.

Mawlocs TOTD
Blast causes hits - Granted by special rule in codex
Next step
Cause wounds - Granted by special rule in codex
Next step
Wound allocation - Granted by Random allocation


Doom-
Doom in range for leadership test - Granted by special rule in codex
Next step
Doom causes wounds - Granted by special rule in codex
Next step
Doom wound allocation - Granted by Random allocation


The only thing confusing here is my special rules do not follow steps 1 to 4, this is a direct conflict of the rules. Instead of following 1 to 4 I utilise a special rule, and when I come to wound allocation that is permissible by the random allocation section.

Earlier in the thread you asked for something on Pg15 which is not in relation to a shooting attack, well, random allocation deals with allocations from special rules.

Nem wrote:
Hi Rig, I get there via the special rule, I am given permission to do everything.

Mawlocs TOTD
Blast causes hits - Granted by special rule in codex
Next step
Cause wounds - Granted by special rule in codex
Next step
Wound allocation - Granted by Random allocation

Find permission to reference Random Allocation outside of a Shooting Attack - considering Allocating Wounds and Removing Casualties is step 5 of a Shooting Attack (page 12 for reference).

The only thing confusing here is my special rules do not follow steps 1 to 4, this is a direct conflict of the rules. Instead of following 1 to 4 I utilise a special rule, and when I come to wound allocation that is permissible by the random allocation section.

Steps 1-4 of the Shooting Attack process you mean?
So obviously you're making a Shooting Attack then, right? Oh - you're not? Um. Then how/why are you referencing Shooting Attack rules? Would you reference Death or Glory rules when you move a vehicle?

Earlier in the thread you asked for something on Pg15 which is not in relation to a shooting attack, well, random allocation deals with allocations from special rules.

There is a skeleton key in the safe. I do not have the combination to the safe nor any way to access the inside of it. Can I unlock the door over there that needs that skeleton key?

Yes, Random Allocation describes that one use is a special rule - but that's not the only use (equidistant models is another relatively common one). To reference a rule you need permission to reference a rule.
Find permission to reference Random Allocation please.

I don't think that random allocation really applies here. There's a clear source of the wounds being taken. They originate from Doom and any unit within 6" can be affected by it.

Clear source and direction of attack should mean that they're handled as normal shooting attack wounds. So allocated to closest model first and so on.

So, I think we can agree that there's no need to look for permission to invoke random allocation.

In which case it's simply a matter of:
1) Doom's ability is a codex special rule, which is allowed to generate hits by virtue of being a special rule. This also allows it to negate standard armour saves.
2) For any hits that are caused, standard shooting allocation is used to assign them.
3) The final steps of wound resolution then apply as per the steps on page 15. We know that this doesn't just apply to shooting attacks, as Vector Strike uses the same steps but only says that it counts as having fired a weapon later in the turn rather than it counts as as shooting attack.

The alternative to the above, which does use more of the BRB is to handle it as a special case Nova power. The special case being that it doesn't require a psychic test and doesn't trigger DTW.

In case one, skyshield doesn't provide it's 4++ due to it not being a shooting attack. Where as in case two it does, as it's just a specialised special shooting attack.

Doom is clearly a special rule, that does things differently. It's not the only time a codex special rule is going to muddy the waters and without GW being more vigorous with their play testing of things and writing down things exactly as they're intended to happen it's going to be down to individual groups / TOs to sort things out.

The only other option is to simply put this discussion on hold until either GW get more responsive with their FAQs / get the rules trolls back at work in the mail order department / release a new 'nid codex. Though the latter may not clear things up fully after some of the issues with the CSM and DA 'dexs.

We've not run into this case locally yet, as we're not playing the kind of games where Doom turns up. Though I'd be more inclined to handle it as a nova power rather than anything else. As that's how it feels it should work based on the description. Either way, if the 'nids are that close I've got other things to worry about,like half my psykers getting attacked by gribblies from the warp and leaving the rubrics with no one to guard.

TL;DR - It's a bit muddy rules wise, due to being a carry over from a previous edition. Use standard allocation for wounds

Well, in the case of Vector Strike there is a clear source of the wounds being taken and GW said its random in that case.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well, in the case of Vector Strike there is a clear source of the wounds being taken and GW said its random in that case.

Hi

This was errata'd to specifically mention using random allocation in its entry. Were people claiming you couldn't allocate wounds from vector strike before?

Rig;
As far as I see I have all the permissions I need RAW, Asking me to look for an allocation method somewhere other than the shooting phase is not needed, Permission is granted on that page, it specifically mentions a non shooting attack, and how to allocate wounds. By using special rules, I disrupt the normal turn sequence and allocate this way.

The issue was it was unclear what to do if the model vector striking moved off the table.

Nem wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well, in the case of Vector Strike there is a clear source of the wounds being taken and GW said its random in that case.

Hi

This was errata'd to specifically mention using random allocation in its entry. Were people claiming you couldn't allocate wounds from vector strike before?

Yes, absolutely.

Rig;
As far as I see I have all the permissions I need RAW, Asking me to look for an allocation method somewhere other than the shooting phase is not needed, Permission is granted on that page, it specifically mentions a non shooting attack, and how to allocate wounds. By using special rules, I disrupt the normal turn sequence and allocate this way.

So the Death or Glory rules mention movement.
Any time I move my Land Raider I demand you choose Death or Glory with your HQ.
Wait - you want me to Tank Shock first? Balderdash! Movement is mentioned in DoG and therefore I can reference it any time I move! By moving I'm disrupting the normal turn sequence!

@Grey Oops bad reading skills


Rig; I'm applying rules in a sensible way. Think your exaggerating my point a bit.
The random allocation permissions are in the Shooting phase, Doom's ability is activated in the shooting phase, where else are they going to put it?

I like Adepticon's way of handling the odd stuff that crops up which needs to be sorted out 'on the fly'.

This may or may not be the way your group handles it, but it is HIWPI.

"The best way to resolve these issues is to ask yourself the following:
1. Is there any existing Warhammer 40,000 rule you can use as a precedent?
2. What is the most reasonable thing that would happen in this situation?
3. What are the two most likely outcomes and then roll a D6: 1-3 = Go with solution 1; 4-6 = Go with solution 2.
4. If all else fails, ask a judge, however, the judge's decision is final. "

Form: http://www.adepticon.org/?page_id=2522

For #1 the most similar thing to the doom's ability is a Nova Psychic power, which is a shooting attack. It seems the easiest way to resolve it as RAW the ability does nothing.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well, in the case of Vector Strike there is a clear source of the wounds being taken and GW said its random in that case.

True, in this particular case we know where the wounds are coming from. Though as VS is essentially the model hitting the unit when it's directly over head random allocation does make sense and is supported by the errata.

My reference to VS wasn't an argument for how the wounds should be allocated, simply a reference to how things can happen outside of the standard turn order when allowed by special rules.

rigeld2 wrote:So the Death or Glory rules mention movement.
Any time I move my Land Raider I demand you choose Death or Glory with your HQ.
Wait - you want me to Tank Shock first? Balderdash! Movement is mentioned in DoG and therefore I can reference it any time I move! By moving I'm disrupting the normal turn sequence!

That's not quite the same thing though, as DoG specifically says when it happens and there's restrictions to when you can activate that rule. Whilst you're more than welcome to attempt to reference it, the very section itself starts out by saying when you can activate it. So, if you're moving your land raider at the other side of the board, you can't activate it, where as if you're running over my HQ I'll more than happily let you activate it should the pre-requisite be met.

I'm still inclined to say that the closest thing that makes this work RAW is Nova without a test or DTW required to make it work.

As regards to Doom, I spoke with my TO (FLGS Manager) today and he reads it as a special rule. It is not listed as shooting. Therefore 4+ invulnerable save does not go into effect on a landing pad. Furthermore, the Landing Pad is considered open terrain and can never give cover. The Doom does not need true LOS as it is not a shooting attack. He only needs to be within 6" of the affected unit (similar to KFF, Blood Chaline, and other 6" aura special rules). Wounds are applied regardless if they are models closest or at random. The two players can agree to one or the other or have a roll off.

The fact that there is no definite ruling on Wound Allocation makes it a "player call". (This is a rule, in fact it's the most important roll, Rigeld2).

In BRB, pg 4:

The Most Important Rule

In a game of the size and complexity of Warhammer 40,000, there are bound to be occasions where a situation is not covered by the rules, or you can't seem to find the right page. Even if you know the rule, sornetimes it is just a really close call, and players don't agree on the precise outcome. Nobody wants to waste valuable gaming time arguing, so be prepared to interpret a rule or come up with a suitable solution for yourselves (in a rnanner befitting the better class of Imperial Citizen, of course). If you find that you and your opponent cannot agree on the application of a rule, roll a dice to see whose interpretation will apply for the remainder of the game - on a
result of 1 -3 player A gets to decide, on a 4-6 player B decides. Then you can get on with the fighting! Once the game is over, you can happily continue your discussion as to the finer points of the rules.

1-3 Wound Allocation - Models Closest
4-6 Wound Allocation - Random

At least I got my answer on how the Doom works. Next tournament is 2/16.

Saythings wrote:
As regards to Doom, I spoke with my TO (FLGS Manager) today and he reads it as a special rule. It is not listed as shooting. Therefore 4+ invulnerable save does not go into effect on a landing pad. Furthermore, the Landing Pad is considered open terrain and can never give cover. The Doom does not need true LOS as it is not a shooting attack. He only needs to be within 6" of the affected unit (similar to KFF, Blood Chaline, and other 6" aura special rules). Wounds are applied regardless if they are models closest or at random. The two players can agree to one or the other or have a roll off.

The fact that there is no definite ruling on Wound Allocation makes it a "player call". (This is a rule, in fact it's the most important roll, Rigeld2).

In BRB, pg 4:

The Most Important Rule

In a game of the size and complexity of Warhammer 40,000, there are bound to be occasions where a situation is not covered by the rules, or you can't seem to find the right page. Even if you know the rule, sornetimes it is just a really close call, and players don't agree on the precise outcome. Nobody wants to waste valuable gaming time arguing, so be prepared to interpret a rule or come up with a suitable solution for yourselves (in a rnanner befitting the better class of Imperial Citizen, of course). If you find that you and your opponent cannot agree on the application of a rule, roll a dice to see whose interpretation will apply for the remainder of the game - on a
result of 1 -3 player A gets to decide, on a 4-6 player B decides. Then you can get on with the fighting! Once the game is over, you can happily continue your discussion as to the finer points of the rules.

1-3 Wound Allocation - Models Closest
4-6 Wound Allocation - Random

At least I got my answer on how the Doom works. Next tournament is 2/16.

Umm yea I am going to leave this right here:

7. Do not bring The Most Important Rule (TMIR) into these rules discussions. While it is something you should most certainly abide by while playing (if you're not having fun, why ARE you playing?), it does not apply to rules debates.

From: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/253892.page

You got your answer on how doom works for you. but for others rulings could be different.

P.S. the underlined above is just totally wrong. If a unit is on top of a shielded Landing pad, and they are shot at from a unit on the ground, they should receive a cover save because there is a wall surrounding the landing pad, and most models will be 24% or more obscured from that wall...

The Landing Pad is considered open terrain and can never give cover (in regards to the Doom). The topic of the thread. It is not a shooting attack, the unit affected simplies needs to be within 6". 25% obscurity is not an issue.

Nem wrote:
Rig; I'm applying rules in a sensible way. Think your exaggerating my point a bit.
The random allocation permissions are in the Shooting phase, Doom's ability is activated in the shooting phase, where else are they going to put it?

It's location is fine. Just put a line to the effect of "This ability uses Random Allocation to allocate and resolve the wounds caused." In the 6th edition errata on Spirit Leech.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:
I like Adepticon's way of handling the odd stuff that crops up which needs to be sorted out 'on the fly'.

This may or may not be the way your group handles it, but it is HIWPI.

"The best way to resolve these issues is to ask yourself the following:
1. Is there any existing Warhammer 40,000 rule you can use as a precedent?
2. What is the most reasonable thing that would happen in this situation?
3. What are the two most likely outcomes and then roll a D6: 1-3 = Go with solution 1; 4-6 = Go with solution 2.
4. If all else fails, ask a judge, however, the judge's decision is final. "

Form: http://www.adepticon.org/?page_id=2522

For #1 the most similar thing to the doom's ability is a Nova Psychic power, which is a shooting attack. It seems the easiest way to resolve it as RAW the ability does nothing.

I'd say its closest to Soul Blaze - it's not explicitly any kind of shooting attack, rather its a special rule that causes wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

prankster wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:So the Death or Glory rules mention movement.
Any time I move my Land Raider I demand you choose Death or Glory with your HQ.
Wait - you want me to Tank Shock first? Balderdash! Movement is mentioned in DoG and therefore I can reference it any time I move! By moving I'm disrupting the normal turn sequence!

That's not quite the same thing though, as DoG specifically says when it happens and there's restrictions to when you can activate that rule. Whilst you're more than welcome to attempt to reference it, the very section itself starts out by saying when you can activate it. So, if you're moving your land raider at the other side of the board, you can't activate it, where as if you're running over my HQ I'll more than happily let you activate it should the pre-requisite be met.

I'm still inclined to say that the closest thing that makes this work RAW is Nova without a test or DTW required to make it work.

And the shooting rules specifically say that there's an order to a shooting attack and allocating wounds is part of that order. You need permission to skip steps 1-4 and Spirit Leech isn't worded to skip those.

rigeld2 wrote:
I'd say its closest to Soul Blaze - it's not explicitly any kind of shooting attack, rather its a special rule that causes wounds.

Really? It has a range, like a Nova, it is used in the shooting phase, like a Nova, it hits units like a Nova...

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'd say its closest to Soul Blaze - it's not explicitly any kind of shooting attack, rather its a special rule that causes wounds.

Really? It has a range, like a Nova, it is used in the shooting phase, like a Nova, it hits units like a Nova...

It requires a Leadership test like a Nova...

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'd say its closest to Soul Blaze - it's not explicitly any kind of shooting attack, rather its a special rule that causes wounds.

Really? It has a range, like a Nova, it is used in the shooting phase, like a Nova, it hits units like a Nova...

It doesn't require a Psyker test like a Nova, it doesn't allow a DtW like a Nova, it affects Psychic immune units/models unlike a Nova...

Perhaps, just maybe, it's a special rule that is similar to a Nova? Oh, right - that's exactly what it is. A special rule that causes wounds. I wonder if there are any other special rules that cause wounds...

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'd say its closest to Soul Blaze - it's not explicitly any kind of shooting attack, rather its a special rule that causes wounds.

Really? It has a range, like a Nova, it is used in the shooting phase, like a Nova, it hits units like a Nova...

It doesn't require a Psyker test like a Nova, it doesn't allow a DtW like a Nova, it affects Psychic immune units/models unlike a Nova...

Perhaps, just maybe, it's a special rule that is similar to a Nova? Oh, right - that's exactly what it is. A special rule that causes wounds. I wonder if there are any other special rules that cause wounds...

Similar:
It has a range, like a Nova, it is used in the shooting phase, like a Nova, it hits units like a Nova.

Not similar:
It is not a psychic power

it has more in common with a nova than it does the soulblaze rule.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'd say its closest to Soul Blaze - it's not explicitly any kind of shooting attack, rather its a special rule that causes wounds.

Really? It has a range, like a Nova, it is used in the shooting phase, like a Nova, it hits units like a Nova...

It doesn't require a Psyker test like a Nova, it doesn't allow a DtW like a Nova, it affects Psychic immune units/models unlike a Nova...

Perhaps, just maybe, it's a special rule that is similar to a Nova? Oh, right - that's exactly what it is. A special rule that causes wounds. I wonder if there are any other special rules that cause wounds...

Similar:
It has a range, like a Nova, it is used in the shooting phase, like a Nova, it hits units like a Nova.

Not similar:
It is not a psychic power

it has more in common with a nova than it does the soulblaze rule.

Yes, when you boil a number of differences down to one line it seems that way.
Here, I can do the same thing:

Similar:
It is a special rule.
It causes wounds.
Wounds must be allocated.

Not similar:
It does some things like a Nova.

See? It's more similar to Soul Blaze!