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How many people are running with the meltabomb upgrade and having success with it?

I look at it as a cheap "just in case" choice but then again MEQs come standard with kraks anyway.

It's a nice hedge against walkers. Meltabombs are something that get handed out with spare points in my lists. I don't like assaulting transports with them. I like to pop the transports with melta and then assault the contents.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't like assaulting transports with them. I like to pop the transports with melta and then assault the contents.

Agreed, which makes me consider combi-melta as a replacement. More expensive but gives you more (especially as it's potentially useful against flyers compared to a melta bomb).

Combi-melta is my favorite

any character that is not engaged before pile in moves,
when challenges are issued,
is unable to challenge or be challenged



I think the better tactic is blowing vehicles up at range, then hopefully assaulting whats inside, or shooting it more,

M bombs are more a last ditch thing for walkers/MC's I find

I run tau sometimes, but I always add the extra points for a good FW shas'o. Bonding knife helps and sometimes the extra BS for kicks. I use them for the LD, so keeping them in the second rank necessary since the points your putting in are for a support role.

Haven't been convinved with kroot sharpers because of their expense.. The 5 attacks looks nice but no combat bonus means its kind of a wast.

I would say always add the extra points if you can for a good armour save like ork nobs. Other than that it depends on your unit, if it needs more aggressive hitting power or the bonus of a ld that should steer how you knit them out.

From wrote:
I like what we have here so far!

Various mixed opinions from different army standpoints. It seems like the IG sergeants are almost required to be naked because they don't really stand a ghost of a chance against anything challenging them...

I disagree with this thought. I will note the people who have posted this are playing Vets (mech vets in particular) or pointed out they do not run blobs. I will point out that a 20 man blob alone has a possibility of 4 ICs for challenges and generally has 3 ICs (2 Sargents and a Commissar) and can have up to 8 ICs (Ministorum Priest, Techpriest, and HQs such as Yarrick, Primus Psyker, and Lord Commissar). At that point, you have the option of ignoring challenges (oh nos, my Sergeant is not involved in this combat!), accepting challenges (Yarrick says 'Yes please!'), or avoiding challenges with the tactics listed above and having a possible 8 ICs lay in with power weapons (I prefer Axes), Fists/Chainfists, or Force weapons. This can be devastating with lasguns and LoS covering your ICs as well.

Is the above 8 man IC blob squad viable? I don't think so because I do not want to have 8 ICs in a 20 man blob... it is to easy to be shot apart. But having a Min Priest with a Commissar and 2 Sarges? Yeah, I can see that working, specially if you protect the Priest in the middle to be able to use that Chainfist against vehicles and enemy units. But vs 5th Ed where the ICs could kinda be sniped out (such as the MP) which made them worthless, they now can be involved working thier mojo and have someone else step up to take a challenge for them. I will also note all Sarges for blobs are the only ones who can take Melts Bombs, so you actually want them to take them for MCs/vehicles. So you never /really/ want them naked. I will agree though that I would be very tempted to leave one Sarge naked (or just with a MB) if I am challenged to allow the Commissar and other Sarge to get involved in killing with power swords/axes. I don't mind Axes on IG, as it at least makes them Str 4 and they have a craptastic Init anyways. If you already have swords, just stick with them.

I think a viable tactic is layering ICs. If you can throw a Dark Apostal with a Khorn Lord in a unit of 20 Zerkers, yeah, you use the Lord or Champion to issue or accept challenges (depending on the target/IC) and save the DA for his Zealot special ability to re-roll wounds. But if you lose your Champ and it comes down to the DA or Lord, I would throw the DA out to keep the Lord killing. In this case, I would leave the Champ naked, because the IC I want to protect and keep killing troops is the Lord unless I think the Lord is just going to walk through the Challenge for effectivily a free roll on the boon table (which is again why I want the DA alive for a re-roll).

If your a lone IC/Sarge in a unit, the idea should be go big or go home IMO. Naked or kitted out (PF for example). If you have multiple Sarges/ICs, leaving one naked and kitting out the rest to get those swings and damage through is a legit tactic, specially if your running a Death Star type unit (Ork Biker Nobz all with PKs) or a Straken list with assault blobs or even putting both your HQ characters in a single unit.

Again, I am not saying that this is cheap or anything, but I feel it is viable. You just have to commit to it. Assault really comes across as something you don't dabble with. Go big or go home.

Note, IC=/=C.
Sergs and Commissars are Characters, not Independent Characters.
It doesn't make much difference, apart from splitting off and LoS rolls, but still

These days, I usuallly run sergeants as normal troops.
My SM Tactical squads have 8 bolters a special and heavy. The serg has a bolter, not BP and sword.
The same with IG blob squads (I've not run them yet, but the lists are written). Vet sergs might get melta bombs, and I'll look at a better gun.

With Eldar Aspect Warriors, I'd usually give them a cc option. With my Dire Avengers, I've been looking to use Diresword and pistol, or Shimmershield and power spear (sword).
The main reason, Exarchs get better stats, so are the only cc options I get.
Without proper cc troops any more, DA gets those, Warp Spiders gets power blades, etc.
If I can keep the assault goiing until my next turn, I might be able to get a GLB squad in range to join in.

For my BA I have one assault sergeant who runs with LC and SS. My other assault sergeants use dual hand flamers. Tactical sergeants usually only get a combi weapon that matches the squads special weapon.

For IG I am going to try some power mauls or axes. Swords just don't seem to cut it. Or they get no upgrades.

With less focus on melee combat in 6th I find the combi weapon to be the most added/needed piece of wargear. I have fond hand to hand weapons in a shooty list to be a waste of points. I'll probably include a priest or commissar for special hand to hand combat weapons and let the sergeants accept unwanted challenges.

For my CSM I tend to give my 'Sergeants' nothing due to the Challenge system and the fact the upgrades are frankly quite expensive. 15pts for most, 25 for the fist is far too and combie weapons are trash. I will take Metla bombs at a push.

The only exception is the units that the Lord is in, then I want the Champion to at least survive long enough to issue challenges and let the Lord butcher the Squad. I find a Power sword is most useful since if you do get to swing your quite likely to kill the apposing sergeant.

Strangely enough my Stream Roller units like Bikes prefer to have the Lord in the Challenge to minimize the carnage and hope to stay in combat then wipe out the squad on my opponents turn.

My Crons are different as I either run D.Lords or Suicide Cyrptek squads (DespairTeks & StormTeks) and my D.lord will issues a challenge in most combats since not many units have AP 2 weapons that swing at initiative.

Thinking about my list I realised I don't run any 'sargents'. My kabolite warriors do not get in assaults so I'd rather have the splinter rifle and my wyches have haywire grenades and suicide run on tanks, so taking sargents with cc weapons is a waste of points. Basically, in all my squads I'd rather take the default 'shooty' option than to kit them out for cc.
The only exception is maybe in my incubi squad, but I usually run an archon with huskblade with them.
I don't find the extra points to be well spent in upgrading to a sargent, and as DE don't have to take them, I don't.

^this, I also play dark eldar too, and this is my opinion on the matter as well, if the sarge isn't needed then I won't take him, or at least won't run him/her with anything.

 Peregrine wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:
Imperial Guard should always take naked sergeants.

They are simply there as speedbumps.

This. I play mech IG, the most a sergeant will ever get is maybe a plasma pistol to add another gun to the unit, and only if I have 10 points free and can't think of anything better to do.

I would be hesitant to do such a thing, losing your sergeant to Gets Hot! could mean disaster...that's just me though.

I love plasma pistols, 15 points is far too much though

As a Tau player, there's not much I can do with my Shas'ui's aside from adding a few drones. The markerlight and target lock seem a little expensive for a BS3 one-shot heavy weapon.

Power Weapons over Power Fists for my Chaos Sergeants. If they're challenging, they might as well do some damage.

 Skinnereal wrote:
Note, IC=/=C.
Sergs and Commissars are Characters, not Independent Characters.
It doesn't make much difference, apart from splitting off and LoS rolls, but still

Yeah, I am to the point where they kinda blur together because I rarily use LoS. I haven't screwed it up yet, but I am waiting. Thanks though for pointing out the difference.

As Orks and 'Crons, I have a couple ways i usually kit seargents

Orks is usually the standard pk/bp, thanks to the backfield challenge rules, and just how many games have been saved by my nob being able to punch out a dreadnaught/defiler/terminator squad/baneblade(yes, it happened )/Flyrant/Tervigon, ect ect

Necrons, its hard to not kit out your lords, because they have wonderful list of wargear. I usually run orb/scythe/scarabs, maybe a weave if I have points left over. They need to be kitted because in most cases, they are your only defense in melee, and they can be the difference between your squad breaking and running, and your squad sticking it out to fight the good fight. Then again though, I think necron lords are also much more powerful at base stats than most sergeants, having s5, t5, and either an ap3 s5 assault 3 shooty weapon or a power sword, plus reanimate, before spending points on any upgrades.

I mean, comparing the nob above (16 pts, + 30 in upgrades, 46 pts total) to a similarly costed lord (just a scythe for 45) at I2, with 2-3 s7 ap1 attacks, the lord stands a decent chance of beating a nob before the nob even strikes. That is of course, messed with considerably if (and when) the necron player takes mss on that dude...

Dragonfodder, do you place your Nobz in the middle/back of the unit to be out of challenge range? As I am lead to believe that if the Character is outside of the 2" threshold once combat starts, he can't issue or accept challenges. Thus do you have your Nobz up front to deal with challenges or hang back and pile in at Init 1 to get claw swings on the squad?

I suppose this makes a differnce on the load-out of the Sergeants because in the case of Orks that Nob is so critically important... and alone.

I usually stick my nob in the back unless I know my opponent has some deepstrikers/outflankers/things that can move around the backside of an ork blob.

In my choppa squad, I also usually have a wierdboy that if I feel like losing him, I can throw at a challenge to ensure my nob gets to whack marines.

I play Guard so no such thing as putting stuff on Sarges.

The only thing I could add would either be melta bombs to keep the vehicles away or bolt pistols, if I have a few points to spare here and there.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
I play Guard so no such thing as putting stuff on Sarges.

The only thing I could add would either be melta bombs to keep the vehicles away or bolt pistols, if I have a few points to spare here and there.

Blob squad with power axes is pretty effective...swamp with basic guard, then have somewhere between 4 and 20 Str 4 Ap 2 attacks landing from the Sergeants. This should be enough to put a hurt on quite a few things.

 Xadakk wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
I play Guard so no such thing as putting stuff on Sarges.

The only thing I could add would either be melta bombs to keep the vehicles away or bolt pistols, if I have a few points to spare here and there.

Blob squad with power axes is pretty effective...swamp with basic guard, then have somewhere between 4 and 20 Str 4 Ap 2 attacks landing from the Sergeants. This should be enough to put a hurt on quite a few things.

I actually thought of going with 2 to 3 squads blobbed together with a Commissar with power axe and the sarges with power mauls, medium kick in challenges, and can also lower the init of models to 1 for the next assault phase. Still hit at init 3, but +2 str AP4, the Commissar would be the heavy hitter back up with the Axe.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:

 Xadakk wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
I play Guard so no such thing as putting stuff on Sarges.

The only thing I could add would either be melta bombs to keep the vehicles away or bolt pistols, if I have a few points to spare here and there.

Blob squad with power axes is pretty effective...swamp with basic guard, then have somewhere between 4 and 20 Str 4 Ap 2 attacks landing from the Sergeants. This should be enough to put a hurt on quite a few things.

I actually thought of going with 2 to 3 squads blobbed together with a Commissar with power axe and the sarges with power mauls, medium kick in challenges, and can also lower the init of models to 1 for the next assault phase. Still hit at init 3, but +2 str AP4, the Commissar would be the heavy hitter back up with the Axe.

Yeah, and the added leadership could make or break that combat. Also, i have taken a Lord Commissar with a 50 man blob and he has quite simply wrecked. WS 5 with a Power Fist tends to make short work of things that survive the blob smashing into their lines.

I thought of getting a PF Lord Commissar, either to boost my HWTs or something wtih a bit more bunch to outflank with my penal legions. works well with Primaris Psyekr I'll try that with a LC.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
I thought of getting a PF Lord Commissar, either to boost my HWTs or something wtih a bit more bunch to outflank with my penal legions. works well with Primaris Psyekr I'll try that with a LC.

Why would you put a Commissar in a HWT...it doesn't make sense IMO, can you elaborate a little

Ah, no; with WITH the HWTs, but close-by so they can use the Lord commissar's 6 inch Ld10/stubbord bubble when they get orders.
Having Ld10 for those HWTs sure helps getting FomT and BiD with more reliability than Ld7.

Of course if I do this, it may well be a naked Lrd Commissar, no point in spending 15 pts for a PF I may not end up using.

As an Eldar Player, I need to say that for us, Squad Leaders are a whole different beast. Eldar Exarchs have outstanding statlines, ws and bs 5, initiative 6, and they often have excellent ranged weapon options. This means that they benefit from the shooting rules and allocation a lot. Then you have the Powers which generally buff the entire squad.

Here are some notable ones.

Fire Dragon Exarch: Upgraded with Tank Hunters and Crack Shot, and placed squarely behind a quad gun... he is death incarnate to fliers. ballistic skill 5, Skyfire, Interceptor, re-rolling to pen/glance, and ignoring jink...

Dark Reaper Exarch : has a few builds crack shot + tempest launcher is awesome against marines, s4 ap3 small blast, which has bs5 to mitigate scatter and re-rolls wounds and ignores cover from crackshot. nice. Alternately, he can run EML + Fast Shot and sit behind an Icarus Las Cannon. he can Fast Shot intercept the Icarus, and still blast away with his Missile Launcher on his turn

Dire Avenger Exarch- with 2 Catapults hes got 4 bs 5 shots, 5 shots when he blade storms. Percision Shots on a 6 for sniping fun, and Bladestorm buffs his entire squad.

Warp Spider Exarch- He is the Dire Avenger exarch on crack. Hes got 4 shots with s6 which benefits from the percision shot rules, and due to the wording in the codex, powered blades ignor armor- so are basically ap2. So you've got 3 weapon skill 5 ap2 attacks at initiative 6, thats enough to scare the crap out of most basic characters in a challenge.

Swooping Hawk Exarch- Skyleap is the only way to make Swooping Hawks acceptable, the Sunrifle hits as hard as the rest of his squad, has 6 shots for percision, and can pin. Granted its only s3. Intercept is bad ass too with Haywire nades. auto hitting is fun.

Warlocks- give your leadership 8 guardian jetbikes a re-roll to their leadership, so they don't run off of an objective, horray embolden. For added fun embolden lets any attached Farseer re-roll failed psychic tests!

You need to pay attention with Eldar Exarchs, they have a lot of varied and nice equipment that tends to make them worth taking and upgrading. Unlike most squad characters who generally only offer a leadership boost and some added CC capability.

 Xadakk wrote:

Blob squad with power axes is pretty effective...swamp with basic guard, then have somewhere between 4 and 20 Str 4 Ap 2 attacks landing from the Sergeants. This should be enough to put a hurt on quite a few things.

In what way are they effective? You have a large squad made of paper that in a world of focus fire and 5+ cover you'll be making Ld checks constantly. A world where where you can't deplete a squad rather quickly and taking wound from the front means you have to hide your Sergeants at the rear. Decent enemy shooting can essentially recede your advance, especially if you're spread out to maximum coherency to mitigate blasts.

You'll be lucky to get them into the 1st round of combat with a 3" pile in, from the rear, at I1, i.e. after the 10-20 other guardsmen have left you no room to get your axe toting sergeants within 2" of a guardsman already in B2B.

This is antagonised even more when you consider the weaknesses death stars have inherently - getting fed cheap units, getting challenged by characters, only able to kill 1 unit per turn, easy to ignore and moving incredibly slow in the case of a blob. It leaves the power blob reliant on allies for mediocrity at best (specifically Azreal) and a useless points sink at worst.

 labmouse42 wrote:

From wrote:
I did not know that if you were 2" outside of a melee that a challenge couldn't be accepted. Could you cite the page # for these rules Labmouse42? Thanks for explaining why Initiative isn't that big of a factor in most situations.

p64 BRB
"Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those not engaged with an enemy model) cannot issue challenges.

p64 BRB
"Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those not engaged with an enemy model) cannot accept challenges.

p64BRB
"Challanges are issued at the start of the Fight sub-pahse, before any blows are struck"

p23 BRB
"A model is engaged in combat, and must fight if:
- During its Initiative step, it is in base contact with one more enemy models
- During its Initiative step, it is within 2" of a friendly model in base contact with one more enemy models"

Ergo, if your Nob is halfway in your blob, and after the charge he is 5" away from enemy models, he cannot issue or accept a challenge. During his pile in phase, he will move up 3" and then be in range to use his power claw on rank and file.


Edit : AresX8 already answered it. He did a better job that I did anyway.

you and aresX8 have pulled 6th edition out of the ashes for me - i swear, if i had one more game where my nobs swung only once (if at all) thanks to getting "challenge locked" refusing combats they wont win or dying in them, they were getting left out of the army list!

3" pile in > hope for a 6 > precision strike the guy whos about to challenge you, before he can harm you!

 Hobowan wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

From wrote:
I did not know that if you were 2" outside of a melee that a challenge couldn't be accepted. Could you cite the page # for these rules Labmouse42? Thanks for explaining why Initiative isn't that big of a factor in most situations.

p64 BRB
"Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those not engaged with an enemy model) cannot issue challenges.

p64 BRB
"Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those not engaged with an enemy model) cannot accept challenges.

p64BRB
"Challanges are issued at the start of the Fight sub-pahse, before any blows are struck"

p23 BRB
"A model is engaged in combat, and must fight if:
- During its Initiative step, it is in base contact with one more enemy models
- During its Initiative step, it is within 2" of a friendly model in base contact with one more enemy models"

Ergo, if your Nob is halfway in your blob, and after the charge he is 5" away from enemy models, he cannot issue or accept a challenge. During his pile in phase, he will move up 3" and then be in range to use his power claw on rank and file.


Edit : AresX8 already answered it. He did a better job that I did anyway.

you and aresX8 have pulled 6th edition out of the ashes for me - i swear, if i had one more game where my nobs swung only once (if at all) thanks to getting "challenge locked" refusing combats they wont win or dying in them, they were getting left out of the army list!

3" pile in > hope for a 6 > precision strike the guy whos about to challenge you, before he can harm you!

I see how this works for characters using slow weapons like power klaws and power axes. I'm fuzzy on how you could apply this idea to shield a character using a faster weapon, though. say you have a space marine sergeant with a power sword. he goes on the same init step as the rest of his squad. if he's far enough away to not be challenged, he's not close enough to be able to contribute to the combat after pile-in moves, right?