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Hello Tactics,

The title is what this thread is all about. I would like to start a discussion about sergeants (and their equivalents ) in 6th edition, what their role should be, how to determine a role for a sergeant, and how they interact with challenges.

I've seen multipul approaches to this over the months I have been browsing 40k forums, some people like to kit them out with 'toys' (combi weapons, power weapons, melta bombs, storm shields, etc), some sergeants seem to have a mandatory "take these things" à la Ork nob with a power klaw and boss pole, and some elect to take them with no upgrades at all.

Why do we make these choices? Which ones are effective and which ones are not?

With challenges flying left and right I can see the appeal of the "naked sarg" he is there in your unit with an IC or two to happily jump up and take the challenge of a more frightening IC than what you already have. He is destined to die allowing your unit to live on for another turn and hopefully strike some blows into whatever unit is assaulting them.

On the other side of the lake we have a unit with a badass IC in it, say Abadon, Draigo, or a Lord. This unit doesn't particularly 'fear' a challenege and will likely be more than happy to accept with one of its combat monsters. The sergeant in this squad could take anything he wanted without concern for being challenged out, he will likely get to participate in his squads melee and can get squaddies to LoS any wounds / pricision strikes that come his way.

Lastly we have the Nob with a Klaw and boss pole. Now I am sure more examples exist than this for sergeants that have "Take these items" written all over them, but it's the one that sticks out in my mind. You have the Klaw to give the squad more killing potential and the pole to keep them from breaking.

I'm hoping to figure out what the apropriate time to invest points into a sergeant over the course of this discussion, what some "must take" items are for various characters, and why we shouldn't just leave all of them naked to leap infront of the first freight train to roll into your squad.

Regards,

- From

Imperial Guard should always take naked sergeants.

They are simply there as speedbumps.

The addition of challenges has lead to a very interesting set of "Rock-Paper-Scissors" type interactions between Sargents.


a MEQ Sargent might like to take a Fist or Ax for the AP 2 power, but they will hit at INT 1. This means anyone with a Sword can hit first and kill them before they hit back.


a TEQ Sarge might like a Sword to take out MEQ or less dudes with AP 2 weapons before they hit. But, this makes them do diddly against other TEQ Sargents.


a Mace seems like a decent option as the extra strength puts more wounds on MEQ and TEQ models at good intiative as well. However, you have to rely on them failing a save which is not consistent.


Ect. The list basically goes on forever.

=====


Basically for any weapon/Armor combination on your Sarge, there is another combination that is a hard counter to it. Rather then pay a bunch of points for weapon that might be useful or might be a liability, many people have opted to simply leave the sarge blank. Nothing lost if they die or hide in the back. Nothing lost if they give their life to delay a Close Combat monster from hurting anyone else for a turn.


Also, combine this with the fact that the metagame has moves more to shooting (especially with rapid fire weapons on infantry) you may find that combat happens less often.


Lastly, close combat in 40k is often very lopsided. I have often found that either you win combat by a ton or loose combat by a ton. Because the risks when you loose combat are rather high, you do not often engage in combat unless it is with an enemy you are certain to crush. With the combat gains from Sarges lessened by challenges, giving your sarge an expensive weapon may be less likely to give you enough combat power to want to assault instead of shoot more. If you are already loosing combat by a ton, having 2-3 attacks at AP 2-3 will probably not change that around to a combat you will win.


====

Overall, in lists I have seen fewer Sarges and less equipment on them. Ork Nobs have very limited defensive options. They were amazing when they had 20-30 cheap wounds to protect their 3-4 S8 AP 2 attacks. Now with only 2 wounds and low INT, Ork nobs are often not taken as they are expensive and likely to either die in a challenge or have to hide in the back of a unit to not die in a challenge.

In GK lists, I have seen more and more people upgrade the weapons on a Non-Sargent model. Taking a Nemesis Hammer on a regular dude lets him stay out of dangerous challenges and makes it harder to take out his expensive, powerful and important weapon. You loose an attack, but you actually get to swing with the hammer rather than loose it in a challenge.

If I take anything on the sergeants in my nilla tac squads, its usually a combi-weapon playing to the same tune as the squad's role. 10 points for one shot is slightly obnoxious, but it helps the tac squad do its thing extra well on one turn. I also prefer sgts in shooty squads to have bolters anyway so it works out.

If I were looking at a sgt in a tac squad that didn't have combat tactics, I might consider some form of power weapon as retreat is less of an option. Tac squads in a pedro list for instance, who get slapped with stubborn.

I could see guard sgts using power weapons if in a blob led by a fearless/atsknf allied character, but I haven't gotten to try this yet.

--edit to add-- I also look to my sgts fill in what my IC can't do. Belial can probably hang on to his sword of silence if he has a TH/SS sgt hanging out.

 svendrex wrote:
In GK lists, I have seen more and more people upgrade the weapons on a Non-Sargent model. Taking a Nemesis Hammer on a regular dude lets him stay out of dangerous challenges and makes it harder to take out his expensive, powerful and important weapon. You loose an attack, but you actually get to swing with the hammer rather than loose it in a challenge.

conversely a precision strike can kill that model and you're not able to protect him with LoS. In that same scenario where something that would kill the sergeant with a Nemesis hammer (via precision strike or challenege) he has the option of declining the challenge or getting a LoS on the Strike.

GW made scoring units terrible at combat with challenge sniping. Typically the only model in a scoring unit that can get access to decent CC gear is the single character in the unit. That means even if he's kitted out, he can be challenged by a naked Serg, limiting his killing potential.

IMO the way to rectify this with the 6E challenge core rules is to allow for distributed wargear or multiple characters in scoring units as they update the Codexes to 6E.

Most sergeants are speedbumps used to challange a nasty IC that has gotten into combat. This is most common with the IG blob, which has five sergeants to feed a necron lord.

However, there are times when you will want to have sergeant battle sergeant. Lets say you have Abbadon in a unit of CSM, and you assault a IG blob squad. Instead of having Abbadon issue a challange, you have the CSM sergeant issue the challange. He will then proceed to beat the face of IG sergeants while Abbadon does work on the squad.

Now a logical question is "What makes a sergeant good?" The answer is simple -- the same tools that make any IC good in assault.
- AP 2 weapon
- 2+ Armor save
- 4++ or better save (or 5++/FNP which is 55% save)
- EW
- T5 or greater
- 4 wounds
- Lots of attacks (at least 5)
- Ability to cause ID through special rule (skulltaker) or doubling out (PK Warboss)
The more of these traits one possesses, the better they will do.

Most sergeants will only have 1 wound. Most sergeants will have 3 attacks. Where are areas where sergeants can improve?

Wearing a 2+ armor is a significant advantage. Terminator sergeants are the nastiest for that reason. Its very concievable to have Mephison or Vect locked in a challange with a Terminator sergeant for a few rounds if the terminator does not roll any 1s on his save.

Having an AP 2 weapon is also a significant advantage. Again terminators come to mind, though anything with a PF/Power Axe can do the job. Wielding AP3 is not the way to take down characters. Having that AP2 edge is a significant advantage.

So which seargents tend to do better? Those that have those traits built-in. Examples would be MoN CSM Bikes, or terminators. You should be seeing a theme here. Tough units tend to have tough sergeants.

 TedNugent wrote:
GW made scoring units terrible at combat with challenge sniping. Typically the only model in a scoring unit that can get access to decent CC gear is the single character in the unit. That means even if he's kitted out, he can be challenged by a naked Serg, limiting his killing potential.

IMO the way to rectify this with the 6E challenge core rules is to allow for distributed wargear or multiple characters in scoring units as they update the Codexes to 6E.

limiting the units killing potential for one player turn is only so much, if a challenge is issued to your sarg with a weapon that will kill a naked sarg in close combat on your turn in the opponents turn he is allowed to maul the squad. Their 0 points speed bumps your 15 or so before getting some value.

I don't want to mediate this thread too much so, let's keep the discussion on the game as is and not on changes GW may or may not do in the future.

 TedNugent wrote:
GW made scoring units terrible at combat with challenge sniping. Typically the only model in a scoring unit that can get access to decent CC gear is the single character in the unit. That means even if he's kitted out, he can be challenged by a naked Serg, limiting his killing potential.

IMO the way to rectify this with the 6E challenge core rules is to allow for distributed wargear or multiple characters in scoring units as they update the Codexes to 6E.

Um, Challenge sniping keeps dedicated CC Characters from shredding through one unit per turn.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Most sergeants are speedbumps used to challange a nasty IC that has gotten into combat. This is most common with the IG blob, which has five sergeants to feed a necron lord.

However, there are times when you will want to have sergeant battle sergeant. Lets say you have Abbadon in a unit of CSM, and you assault a IG blob squad. Instead of having Abbadon issue a challange, you have the CSM sergeant issue the challange. He will then proceed to beat the face of IG sergeants while Abbadon does work on the squad.

Now a logical question is "What makes a sergeant good?" The answer is simple -- the same tools that make any IC good in assault.
- AP 2 weapon
- 2+ Armor save
- 4++ or better save (or 5++/FNP which is 55% save)
- EW
- T5 or greater
- 4 wounds
- Lots of attacks (at least 5)
- Ability to cause ID through special rule (skulltaker) or doubling out (PK Warboss)
The more of these traits one possesses, the better they will do.

Most sergeants will only have 1 wound. Most sergeants will have 3 attacks. Where are areas where sergeants can improve?

Wearing a 2+ armor is a significant advantage. Terminator sergeants are the nastiest for that reason. Its very concievable to have Mephison or Vect locked in a challange with a Terminator sergeant for a few rounds if the terminator does not roll any 1s on his save.

Having an AP 2 weapon is also a significant advantage. Again terminators come to mind, though anything with a PF/Power Axe can do the job. Wielding AP3 is not the way to take down characters. Having that AP2 edge is a significant advantage.

So which seargents tend to do better? Those that have those traits built-in. Examples would be MoN CSM Bikes, or terminators. You should be seeing a theme here. Tough units tend to have tough sergeants.

Out of curiosity why doesn't a high initiative make your list of positive qualities a IC should have?

No, because he mentioned double S and AP2, both of which require Unwieldy special rule and therefore cause you to strike at I1 regardless of base initiative.

Are big choppas on Ork Nobz more viable now with challenges? To mean it'd seem a waste to put a power klaw on the Nob only to have it squashed before it could ever swing it.

He's only initiative 3 with the Big Choppa. It wouldn't help against anything....

From wrote:


conversely a precision strike can kill that model and you're not able to protect him with LoS. In that same scenario where something that would kill the sergeant with a Nemesis hammer (via precision strike or challenege) he has the option of declining the challenge or getting a LoS on the Strike.

The only consistent form of deadly precision strikes is the Vindicare assassin, and he now ignores LOS.

Telion has his stalker bolter, but it does not have the Str or AP to be a consistent threat.

Most Characters only have combi-weapons in the shooting phase so shooting precisions trikes are usually not much of an issue. Most characters are combat oriented, rather than shooting oriented.

Sniper Rifles are still a very poor weapon, even with precision strikes, in a TAC list. You simply do not see them often in the current tournament metagame.


In the Assault phase, you can tie up their character with your bland one, (or for GK your INT 6 Halberd Champ) while your squad weapon goes to town on their squad.


It is true that a squad weapon like this is more vulnerable to precision attacks. However, in general I have found precision strikes to be less of a threat than challenges.

I like to give my tac sergeants power weapons. He already has an extra attack so why not make it count? Simple power sword will triple the sergeant's killing power against other marines. Besides, it looks cool, I already have enough dudes with bolters.

From wrote:
Out of curiosity why doesn't a high initiative make your list of positive qualities a IC should have?

Usually it works out that character X will kill character Y in 3 turns. Character Y will kill character X in 5 turns. When this happens Initiative does not matter.

The only time Initiative matters is when both characters will kill each other in the same round.

 TheCaptain wrote:
Imperial Guard should always take naked sergeants.

They are simply there as speedbumps.

This. I play mech IG, the most a sergeant will ever get is maybe a plasma pistol to add another gun to the unit, and only if I have 10 points free and can't think of anything better to do.

 orchewer wrote:
Are big choppas on Ork Nobz more viable now with challenges? To mean it'd seem a waste to put a power klaw on the Nob only to have it squashed before it could ever swing it.

The trick with orks is that you have to learn how to manage your challanges.

You want to start your PK nob more than 2" from the combat, so he cannot accept a challange. During the I1 pile in phase, you want to have him be able to get within 2" of a friendly model so he can swing that big powerclaw of his.

While its not perfect, its lets you skip getting challanged out by the marine sergeant for a round and do your powerfist damage to the squad instead of one guy.

For Chaos and the forced challenges, my take is you either accept that your champion is a deadman and keep him naked or you gear him enough to insure a high chance of success against other champions or sergeants.

I play a variety of armies including Chaos, Imperial Guard, Sisters of battle, and Necrons.

I say as naked as possible with all the sniping that is going on. But i never leave any of my squads without melta something. A melta bomb/gun in every squad will go a long ways to solving anything armored. If you dont want to invest the points in a gun well then a bomb is just as good

And the commissars/Necron Lords have power axes/War scyths in every squad to deal with pesky Termies and threats requiring the high AP.

My sisters hide in their Rhino and have a Melta Gun in the squad. God forbid they do get charged they at least have 10+ Krak grenade attacks. But no power weapons ... its like trying to save the titanic with 1 gallon bucket. Give them a Hvy flamer and hope it peels off enough of w/e charged to draw combat out.

I personally dont believe in Plasma Pistols or guns ... nothing they can solve that an Exorcist wont. And the Exorcist dosnt have a 1/6 chance of killing you.

In my necrons i tend to deck out my lords because that army heavily revolves around the HQs and sgts. Every lord gets a orb/MSS/2+/War-scythe. Overlords dont get their own orbs and just benefit from the regular Lords orb. Thats what eats so many points.

 TheCaptain wrote:
Imperial Guard should always take naked sergeants.

They are simply there as speedbumps.

Hear hear! Usually running a lot of guardsmen, not in blobs, I regard every squad as disposable as ammunition. Very Red Army. If I have the points, I MIGHT give them power swords. Maybe.

Now, the leaders of more important squads, CCS, vets, XV-8, etc, then probably throw some kit on them.

I like what we have here so far!

Various mixed opinions from different army standpoints. It seems like the IG sergeants are almost required to be naked because they don't really stand a ghost of a chance against anything challenging them, Chaos forces you to either suit up or go naked because of required challenges, and some take power weapons for coolness factor and to make their SM sergeants have more killing potential.

I did not know that if you were 2" outside of a melee that a challenge couldn't be accepted. Could you cite the page # for these rules Labmouse42? Thanks for explaining why Initiative isn't that big of a factor in most situations.

Precision strikes and lacking LoS were just examples for why one might rather have a special weapon on a Character. The added bit of extra protection could help and you always have the option to decline a challenge.

The list provided by Labmouse42, I believe, is a good starting point for a checklist that one can use to determine if it's worth giving a sergeant upgrades. From this list, again in my opinion, things like wolf guard terminators and perhaps BA assault squad sergeants could be good candidates for equipment. I can also see that multi-character units can be a very good reason to equip a serg with some wargear.

Let's keep it up, perhaps throughout the life of this thread we can map out some characters that deserve to have equipment, equipment that is affordable or adds a lot to a unit (warscythe crisis suits), and what situations permit your sergeant (or equivalent) to purchase some gear.

I'm fairly certain Labmouse42 is wrong about the challenges. You issue a challenge, your opponent can accept or deny if they accept you attempt to move the models in base to base in the following order:

1. Swap the challenging model with a friendly model in base with the challenged
2. Swap the challenged model with a friendly model in base with the challenger
3. Swap one from each in base to base with each other if within 3"
4. Get models as close as possible to base to base then fight the challenge as if they were in base to base.

The distance rules are only based on the swap out not issuing the challenge itself.

I'm at work so I'm working from memory, but I'm usually pretty good at that

I play Blood Angels and what i have been liking lately is a dual wielding sarge with either a bolt pistol and plasma pistol or, in my flamer squad, dual hand flamers. I find it helps my assault squads kill more before they die plus it looks awesome!

andystache wrote:
I'm fairly certain Labmouse42 is wrong about the challenges. You issue a challenge, your opponent can accept or deny if they accept you attempt to move the models in base to base in the following order:

1. Swap the challenging model with a friendly model in base with the challenged
2. Swap the challenged model with a friendly model in base with the challenger
3. Swap one from each in base to base with each other if within 3"
4. Get models as close as possible to base to base then fight the challenge as if they were in base to base.

The distance rules are only based on the swap out not issuing the challenge itself.

I'm at work so I'm working from memory, but I'm usually pretty good at that

pretty darn close for working from memory challenges are on pg 64 of the BRB. there are no constraints listed on how close you have to be to declare a challenge other than your unit being in base to base with at least one model from the enemy unit (standard close combat constraints). there are no distance constraints on the swapping models bit, either. steps 1 and 2 are as you say, but step 3 is just swap the challenger to as close as possible with the challengee and treat them as being in base contact for the fight. I didn't see anything in the FAQ to contradict this, so no hiding in the back I guess

andystache wrote:
I'm fairly certain Labmouse42 is wrong about the challenges. You issue a challenge, your opponent can accept or deny if they accept you attempt to move the models in base to base in the following order:

1. Swap the challenging model with a friendly model in base with the challenged
2. Swap the challenged model with a friendly model in base with the challenger
3. Swap one from each in base to base with each other if within 3"
4. Get models as close as possible to base to base then fight the challenge as if they were in base to base.

The distance rules are only based on the swap out not issuing the challenge itself.

I'm at work so I'm working from memory, but I'm usually pretty good at that

Labmouse is correct. You are not.

Here's the breakdown from an older post of mine: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/600/456724.page#4506193

AresX8 wrote:
Here's the breakdown of how he can't accept the challenge or be picked out by Precision Strikes:

1. "Challenges are issued at the start of the Fight sub-phase, before any blows are struck." pg. 64. This means this is before the initiative step pile-in moves.

2. "A model is engaged in combat, and must fight if:

- During its initiative step, it is in base contact with one or more enemy models.
- During its initiative step, it is within 2" of a friendly model in base contact with one or more enemy models in the same combat." pg 23.

3. "Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot issue challenges." pg. 64. This means your Nob can't issue a challenge either, because of clause 1.

4. "Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot accept challenges." pg. 64. This means Nobs that are not engaged as per clause 2 cannot accept challenges. Cannot accept challenges != refusing challenges.

5. "Models make their attacks when their Initiative step is reached.... Note that certain situations, abilities and weapons [Emphasis mine] can modify a model's Initiative." pg. 23. This means that a Nob piles in at I1 because of his PK and also attacks at I1 because of the PK.

6. "Wounds from Precision Strikes are allocated against an engaged model (or models) of your choice in the unit he is attacking, rather than following the normal rounds for Wound allocation." pg. 63. This means that a Nob cannot be picked out in combat because he is not engaged as per clause 2.

Vanilla marines work both ways, they are flex

If you tool up a SGT the task then is ensuring his weapon suits the opponent. Charging terminators with sword is clearly desperate stuff. However putting a single weapon in is easily frustrated for a turn with challenges. Thus IMO if your using Tacs for leading edge of the battlefield roles, with fist or axe, throw an IC in there too to soak the charge.

Default remains using the LD of the SGT to ensure the troops stay on the battlefield. Not much worse than a combat squad with lascannon running off the board turn 1.

@aresx8: wow, that's both subtle and clever. a far deeper understanding than what I'd picked up from my read of the rules. that's going to take me some time to wrap my head around, but thank you for breaking it down

From wrote:
I did not know that if you were 2" outside of a melee that a challenge couldn't be accepted. Could you cite the page # for these rules Labmouse42? Thanks for explaining why Initiative isn't that big of a factor in most situations.

p64 BRB
"Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those not engaged with an enemy model) cannot issue challenges.

p64 BRB
"Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those not engaged with an enemy model) cannot accept challenges.

p64BRB
"Challanges are issued at the start of the Fight sub-pahse, before any blows are struck"

p23 BRB
"A model is engaged in combat, and must fight if:
- During its Initiative step, it is in base contact with one more enemy models
- During its Initiative step, it is within 2" of a friendly model in base contact with one more enemy models"

Ergo, if your Nob is halfway in your blob, and after the charge he is 5" away from enemy models, he cannot issue or accept a challenge. During his pile in phase, he will move up 3" and then be in range to use his power claw on rank and file.


Edit : AresX8 already answered it. He did a better job that I did anyway.

still wrapping my head around this. would this reasoning apply to all 'sergeants' or just those using I1 weaponry?