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Siigh.. Dakkadakka, where even opinions are wrong and people need to call you out on it -_-'

 insaniak wrote:

The whole *ahem* point of the limit is that it forces a limit on just how much stuff can be crammed into your army. If he really wants that LC on his razorback, then he needs to make slack elsewhere.

But I don't do that.

 Peregrine wrote:
Why not? Why should someone get to go over the point limit to have a power fist instead of a power axe for their AP 2, or a LC Razorback instead of a HB Razorback? We're not even talking about having to drop an entire unit and be 100 points under the limit, just having to settle for less than the best upgrades.

Because I say so.

0 points over. Period. End of.

It's common courtesy. If you and I agree to 1500 points beforehand, then show up with 1500 points or less.

NOT ONE POINT OVER.

Here is my usual copy-paste answer regarding this subject



.........................................................................................


I'll allow a zero point breach of the maximum allowed.

5 points is the difference between a Mortar and an Autocannon. It makes a hell of a lot of difference to the Rhino heading towards you.

3 points allows for a Singing Spear upgrade. Make a lot of difference to the Land Raider nearby. Plus I get to hear about how his Warlock killed my Land Raider forever.

1 point is a Searchlight. The Searchlight that just lit up my Stormraven, allowing the rest of his army to shoot at it.

Saying; "It's just 1 point. It doesn't make a lot of difference" is a huge fallacy. That 1 point might also be part of a larger chunk of points that makes it possible to field that extra Hive Guard, Terminator, Meltagun or whatever.

Saying; "Just add a Melta Bomb to one of our Sergeants and we are even" is a fallacy. Said squad might not have been taken to move aggresively forwards....making the upgrade utterly pointless. Hell, it might even induce me to stray from the basic tenents of my battleplan, which I had in mind when I made the armylist. Maybe I even considered giving him a Melta Bomb but discarded the idea because it was a useless waste of points.....and now I add it again to compensate for your unwillingness to follow the rules?

If 5 points is no big deal, then remove them. They are "no big deal", remember?

Thank you for putting me in a situation where I, by saying "no", is denying you your "right to have fun". I am not really given a choice. You broke the rules/agreement and suddenly I'M the TFG?!?

We have to set the limit somewhere....and that might as well be at the limit agreed upon beforehand.



........................................................................................

Steelmage99 wrote:
Here is my usual copy-paste answer regarding this subject

POST FULL OF AWESOME.

I like the way you think.

When my friend was running the old Tau I allowed him one or two points, because I knew he had to deal with those 3 pt upgrades and what not, and I always hated doing that so I didn't mind. And it was just at home and not serious. But my brother who had newer army books with neater upgrades (and myself for that matter) had to stick to exact limits. Now the new Tau are out, he will too.

As strict as the other guy. With one condition ~ if I see Helldrakes, Manticores, or other such BS in your list, feth you your not going a single point over the limit.

It's called a point limit for a reason.

 motyak wrote:
When my friend was running the old Tau I allowed him one or two points, because I knew he had to deal with those 3 pt upgrades and what not, and I always hated doing that so I didn't mind. And it was just at home and not serious. But my brother who had newer army books with neater upgrades (and myself for that matter) had to stick to exact limits. Now the new Tau are out, he will too.

That is actually something I noticed in the new codex is that point totals are much rounder. I might not have to deal with those problems anymore.

To be completely honest I go in into pretty much every game I play expecting I'll be wiped off the board by turn 3 by a combination of horrible rolls and lack of familiarity with the opponent's army. I'm really not that good at this game and don't take it all that seriously.

I don't mind the army being a few points over, but there are limits.

Playing 1000 points of Empire against another 1000 points of Empire, only to find that he had an extra 250 points in the form of his steam tank... yeah... that's a bit much.

How is this a question? A points limit is a points limit. Make your list fit. That's the game. Unless rolling a "5" can count as a "6", its really close after all.

It I'm playing someone outside of a casual format or for the first time, etc., I try to stay very strict point wise. Once I build a rapport, etc., or am playing with friends, the points values become less strict.

This isn't including scenarios or games we play where we deliberately skew points

Not a point over. What gets me is when there's no basing, the army is half proxies, unpainted, and/or broken... and you don't even have to ask because you know that they are 20+ points over. And they are, and of course think that it's 'no big deal'.

Grr.

If I make the list with the other person along waiting to start the game and I end up being 1-3 points over the limit with my wysiwyg list I ask the opponent kindly if he insists on me changing the list to fit while he waits probably one or two minutes longer or if he is ok to start the game with this list. So it's a matter of time mostly, if I'm at home writing a list for the next game at weekend I have all the time I need to swap the numbers around to get right under the limit.

If I am asked if my opponent can get some additional points I have some terms the list has to fulfill:
- no more than 5 points over the limit
- cheapest upgrade used should be more than twice the points you are over the limit
- no cheaper upgrades available than your cheapest upgrade
This may be sound a bit confusing but the streamlined version of this is 'If you're at 1496 points out of 1500 you can have those Meltabombs.' but if you can cut upgrades to get straight to the limit I insist on it.

Kangodo wrote:
Siigh.. Dakkadakka, where even opinions are wrong and people need to call you out on it -_-'.

Nobody said your opinion was wrong. But pointing out why you disagree with a stated opinon is a very large part of how discussion works...

 Peregrine wrote:


Why not? Why should someone get to go over the point limit to have a power fist instead of a power axe for their AP 2, or a LC Razorback instead of a HB Razorback?

Because those are the models he has. People have limited collections, and they won't have a model for every option in the codex.

If I have to choose between the opponent going five points over or playing with non-WYSIWYG army, I'll give him those five points any day.

As a casual gamer at heart, and having spent a lot of time with the RPG games, I take a very relaxed approach to the points limit. As long as you cannot easily rectify the problem, then it's fine. If you can drop an upgrade somewhere, then you should probably do that (fluffy/modelling exceptions allowed), but otherwise, no problemo.

As an addendum, I ensure my army lists are firmly within any points limit, as on the rare occasion I have a throw down game, I'm aware others are less lenient than I.

Meh...asking for an X point allowance is the same as asking for an X inch allowance.

"Do you mind if I'm a point over?" is like asking, "Do you mind if I'm an inch too far, when I make this assault move / shot / etc.?"


If my opponent feels comfortable asking for an extra point, he should feel comfortable granting me an extra inch. I won't ask for it, and he shouldn't either.

 Scott-S6 wrote:
If your models are 100% WYSIWYG (right down to melta bombs, etc) then I'll be fairly generous on points limit. It can be a real bitch to sort out the last 10-15 points.

If you're not WYSIWYG then points or under, no exceptions - if you're a few points over then drop a melta bomb, downgrade a weapon or something.

Personally, my lists are always points or under.

WYSIWYG is too costly to do with some armies. I don't see how WYSIWYG should be the factor in playing a friendly game where point can be slightly over.

Steelmage99 wrote:
Here is my usual copy-paste answer regarding this subject



.........................................................................................


I'll allow a zero point breach of the maximum allowed.

5 points is the difference between a Mortar and an Autocannon. It makes a hell of a lot of difference to the Rhino heading towards you.

3 points allows for a Singing Spear upgrade. Make a lot of difference to the Land Raider nearby. Plus I get to hear about how his Warlock killed my Land Raider forever.

1 point is a Searchlight. The Searchlight that just lit up my Stormraven, allowing the rest of his army to shoot at it.

Saying; "It's just 1 point. It doesn't make a lot of difference" is a huge fallacy. That 1 point might also be part of a larger chunk of points that makes it possible to field that extra Hive Guard, Terminator, Meltagun or whatever.

Saying; "Just add a Melta Bomb to one of our Sergeants and we are even" is a fallacy. Said squad might not have been taken to move aggresively forwards....making the upgrade utterly pointless. Hell, it might even induce me to stray from the basic tenents of my battleplan, which I had in mind when I made the armylist. Maybe I even considered giving him a Melta Bomb but discarded the idea because it was a useless waste of points.....and now I add it again to compensate for your unwillingness to follow the rules?

If 5 points is no big deal, then remove them. They are "no big deal", remember?

Thank you for putting me in a situation where I, by saying "no", is denying you your "right to have fun". I am not really given a choice. You broke the rules/agreement and suddenly I'M the TFG?!?

We have to set the limit somewhere....and that might as well be at the limit agreed upon beforehand.



........................................................................................

Exalted sir.

In my friendly games being 1-10 over is fine, the other person just adds a few points in of their own to even it up

 Billagio wrote:
In my friendly games being 1-10 over is fine, the other person just adds a few points in of their own to even it up

Though I agree that a points limit is a points limit, I can see this as a resonable compromise.

My current list is about 1 point over the limit, everything's WYSIWYG so at this point it gets more confusing for people.

Not that anybody cares.

The points limit is the points limit. You and your opponent can agree to a different points limit up to the start of the game (and sometimes after the start of the game) but you can not be even one point over the agreed points limit.

Mandatory WYSIWYG in a friendly game

What the feth am I reading.

Also way to gak on new players just entering the hobby. Disallowing 'try before you buy' is a damn good way to lose players.

 Byte wrote:
Your talking gear... it could be the diffence of being able to fit in a game changing unit.. to often this conversation restricts itself to gear. It could be whole squad of something.

Then play without an entire squad. You don't get to break the rules just because it would be harder to win if you don't.

 Crimson wrote:
If I have to choose between the opponent going five points over or playing with non-WYSIWYG army, I'll give him those five points any day.

Or here's an option: if you want to play 100% WYSIWYG (as if that is a realistic expectation) and you don't have a HB Razorback model (or some other upgrade to cut to make room for the LC Razorback), drop the Razorback entirely.

 CadianXV wrote:
As a casual gamer at heart, and having spent a lot of time with the RPG games, I take a very relaxed approach to the points limit. As long as you cannot easily rectify the problem, then it's fine. If you can drop an upgrade somewhere, then you should probably do that (fluffy/modelling exceptions allowed), but otherwise, no problemo.

But every single over-the-limit problem is easy to fix: remove something from your army. I can't think of a single army that would ever have absolutely zero upgrades purchased (including extra models for a squad) and therefore be completely unable to remove something to fit within the limit. Every single army can fix the problem within a few seconds. So when someone says "I can't remove anything" what they really mean is "I don't want to remove anything".

 DeffDred wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
In my friendly games being 1-10 over is fine, the other person just adds a few points in of their own to even it up

Though I agree that a points limit is a points limit, I can see this as a resonable compromise.

It's not reasonable at all because one player is getting much more out of it. For example, you go over the point limit to bring a melta gun instead of a flamer, but I can't make a similar upgrade because I've already taken all of my melta gun upgrades I had available. So I get to throw on some random 5-point upgrade that will probably not contribute anything, while you get something you actually wanted.

Also, there is no need to compromise, just like we don't compromise between my opinion that my lasguns should be STR 10 AP 1 and your opinion that they should be STR 3 AP -, with a "compromise" of STR 6 AP 4.

I don't want someone being over the limit at all. I would never go over a point limit. I still answered "other" , because it is not like I am going to total up someone's list before I play them. I just expect them to be a fair player and not go over the limit, but unless they told me I would never know. If they did tell me I would look to see if I could add some piece of war gear or small upgrade to get to whatever they have. If I could not do so I MIT ask them to drop something.

 CadianXV wrote:
As a casual gamer at heart, and having spent a lot of time with the RPG games, I take a very relaxed approach to the points limit. As long as you cannot easily rectify the problem, then it's fine. If you can drop an upgrade somewhere, then you should probably do that (fluffy/modelling exceptions allowed), but otherwise, no problemo.

As an addendum, I ensure my army lists are firmly within any points limit, as on the rare occasion I have a throw down game, I'm aware others are less lenient than I.

Strange, I got similar gaming background, but wold never permit such thing.

I am in the boat of RAW and RAI. They wouldn't be there otherwise. Downgrade some gear or drop a troop. I have my made list to the points limit so why can't you?

No points over, period.
I do not know how many times I had to agonize over those last 5 points of who gets what.
This is why some items are cheap that have some impact.
I have never played a list 1 point over.
I get a little grumpy when people try to justify why their list is over.
How about you finish a little under just for giggles?

 Talizvar wrote:
No points over, period.
I do not know how many times I had to agonize over those last 5 points of who gets what.
This is why some items are cheap that have some impact.
I have never played a list 1 point over.
I get a little grumpy when people try to justify why their list is over.
How about you finish a little under just for giggles?

Ditto! Just last night in fact I was making a 1000pt list that came out to 1003. Making the list took me about 10 minutes. I spent probably another hour removing things, swapping things, adding things in, just to fit within 1000 and still be pleased with what I'd picked. In the end it came out to 997 and I was happy.

In fact, with my Marine armies I am often 10-12 points under and I'm fine with that, I've played them for so long there's no point me adding some random crappy wargear I won't use (or will forget about) and I can't fit another body within the limit, so it stays short on points.