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Hospy wrote:


Tabling a guy who doesn't know how to play is no fun for anybody. Give him a chance, give him pointers, and let him have some fun.

This, I was embarrased this week because of this. We got 2 new players to our group, and I completely walloped them, first game was 1850 SoB vs Necrons, I had the crons tabled end of T4.
Second game was newdar vs DW, that really wasnt pretty, the dice were warmed up and I had those termis wiped top of T2.
It was only after the games that they mentions they'd only been playing since Dec They had told me about tourney's that they had done before this, so I didn't think anything of it


After finding this out, I asked them if they wanted any pointers, and we chatted about what went right/wrong during those games.

Swap armies, give them tips on how to play your army while you explain what you are doing with their army and you are making those choices. Effectively, play both sides to educate your opponent.

Next game with them, swap back and play both sides again, explaining what's being done, why takes a good decision, and get their opinion before committing each unit. Talk after the game about what they saw, what they thought, and what they think should change or stay the same in their army build, strategy, and tactics.

Third game, they play theirs, you play yours, you encourage you opponent to explain you each of their choices, while also explaining to you each of you choices. Its a dialog your opponent needs to lead, with you providing constructive comments.

And finally, encourage other players in your community to do the same thing you just did with that opponent.

Easiest way to grow a good player, one that will bring to the community rather than take away.

SJ

Putting someone new off the game is just downright bad for all involved. Ill tone down my army and help them play, and as they get better I tone up my army some more.

I play with less points than him usually; it makes the game challenging for me as well as fun for him, as he has a better chance of winning.

Taking a weaker army would be a good way to challenge yourself even agains a less experienced army. if they are aware they are fairly bad then you could help them along the way too.

How does it help them ? If they win ,they may think their army is good. If you take a bad army , they may think it is normal to face bad armies and that there is no need to either improve their lists or they abilities to play.

I play them like i play all others, No one gave me slack when i started, they tabled the living hell outta me until I actually put up a fight. You gotta learn to play. People should go in knowing that they might be playing people who have played for years and have this down to an artform, and they, Shock, Might loose horribly and miserably

Naturally, I try and talk about stuff.

Otherwise, I also handicap. There's no way that you, as the better player, are going to become a better player if you don't have a challenge, and neither person is going to have much fun if it's just a one-sided slaughter every game.

Why don't they watch how good builds are played , there is a lot of tournament reports. New players can even watch it live. That is how I learned to play, watched how IG players that win play at 1500pts and copied their list and game play. It is the same as MtG , unless someone has codex material before everyone else there is little sense to spend both money and time doing tests , if the stuff you pick may not work . Specialy if your totaly new to table top gaming. And if someone bought an army that is getting tabled or close to tabled every time and there is no heavy tailoring involved , then it is probably the army choice foult , not the new players. Good armies can carry a unexpirianced player .

I've been a 40K player for close to three years now. And after looking at these comments, I struggle to figure out why everyone in my area is out for each other's blood (win at all cost, tournie list, cheese, spam, rule lawyering, you name it)

<Rant Begins>
Playing Templars, i can't help but feel like i'm the easy mode guy. Literally people would ask me to try out their list, and it usually would be some new or spam list. Its like constant no fun allowed atmosphere here.

Coming from basically the loser's perspective, I'd appreciate advice and tips on what to do with units on the table, rather than completely being tabled. Gee I sure enjoy seeing you gloat at me and and take pictures to prove it to boot.... meh. Oh I forget that they don't even have the models and have to heavily proxy everything. Urgh no offense to those that hardly have the time and cash to do up their models, but common at least make and effort instead of making "super cheesy killy list 342", and then using all the wrong models.... I wonder why I even agree to these games....

<Rante ends>

- I'd agree with giving advice to the newer guys.
- Also I think its not fair to give oneself a handicap, the game off point wise and as result can be rather confusing for others.
- most importantly don't trash talk and put your opponent down, Show some sportsmanship.

I play as normally, but make sure to take notes and take notice of what my opponent dose wrong, and more importantly what he dose correct. Also I dont mind taking a handicap of somewhere between 250 to 500 points.

I have several very sensitive players around. They are very "invested" so to speak and want to go really hard from the beginning. The sad part is they still make lots of mistakes so I end up winning and looking like the bad guy, even if I do make some on-purpose tactical mistakes or take a weaker list.

I mean I get it, we have all sorts here - people playing 40k usually have thicker skin than that, especially the vets, and you will need LOTS of that for tourneys.

But we get the occasional guy or several who WILL throw a hissy fit or a sulky gloomface during the whole game if even one of their models dies after the first salvo flies at it.

I just don't know what to do with these kinds of people anymore. If you:

1) Scale down anything and they find out? You will be the bad guy and they'll be mad at you for days for insulting their intellect.

2) Play to your strengths and go full-throttle? Bitch-fits and Gloom-and-doom all around and "my army is weak, my rolls are weak, your army is the more overpowered one, your rolls were better" when clearly he made several mistakes which lost him the fight.

Hence I sometimes feel there is no possible point to any kind of play with those people at all. If you play competitive with them on any skill level, see above. If you even try to play casual, they'll just use it as an excuse to bring their best lists and still throw hissy fits when their A-game cutting edge list loses to my fluffy sluggaboy list.

I am not giving up on anyone though, since I brought many of them into the game. I want this hobby to grow, but I don't know anything about handling those kinds of "sensitive" or "oversensitive" types.

Edit: Oh, and I do feel the above list needs a "Tell them what they did right" - this is my favourite tool in dealing with the abovementioned people. Telling them what they did wrong will somehow give of signals like "you suck, you don't know how to play, you won't get better" even if you DON'T imply it at all. When I tell them what they did right, it actually helps them to see what they did wrong, albeit not every time.

Ive been starting small with 500 pt games, the gf wanted totake lilith so i let her build to 750 while i just tacked on 10 sniper kroot with a hound. I was down 200ish points and might have lost if not for my outflanking kroot. I almost for sure would have lost if she had listened to me(take your 9wyches plus litlith in a raider and your incubi in a venom and rush them at me, she chose to instead just shoot a gak ton at my stealth sutis in cover) but thats her fault and i think she realizes now that her troops are paper thin. She managed to kill my stealths and all but 2 firewarriors in a relic game, but my missileside,koot, and Mark'O would not concede a win lol

All in all i think patience is the biggest thing(especially when dealing with people that have ADD or ADHD) and working with them. Im lucky in that my gf (usually) listens to my advice where as my roommate wants me to just do it for him it seems. But i wont go easy on them, and i tell them that! i give myself a handicap while they are learning and getting used to rules and special abilities and whatnot but going easy makes improvement take forever. Thats why i start ALL videogames on the hardest difficulty(except for the ones that dont let me and the occasional sport game).

I'd firstly wait to see if they improve over time. It should, like most things in life, be a learning experience, so watch and see if they get better and start patching holes in their lists/tactics.

However, for many of these people, it simply doesn't click and they don't improve by themselves. In these instances, give them some pointers and make them see the benefits of them.

40k is a hopelessly broken beer and pretzels game, with grey knights allying with necrons and other such broken sillyness.

it's up to the players to not be douches and to not make douchey lists.

I do not play GW rules for 40k.
BUT in the games we do play, talking through options and tactics , in game and after game is the best way to improve players skill and help grow the gaming group.IMO.

I tend to play normally no matter the opponent. I'm not a win at all cost player by any means but I won't deliberately hold back to extend the game. If I know my opponent is inexperianced and is struggling throughout the game I will try and throw out pointers and advice without sounding condescending. I always found playing against someone who didn't pull punches was the best way for me to get better as it allowed me to learn the big tactical mistakes early.

Depends - are they decent people?

Then I go easy on them, or I field lists of "fun" units I might not otherwise take (vespids, lictors, ctan, etc.) because they are not that great.

Can also offer them constructive feedback, or suggestions "hey, know how I just wiped that unit...I planned that...here is how you could have prevented it...".

If they are jerks...I either try to avoid them, or politely clear them off the table...

I have been playing some games with my 8 year old to get him up to speed.

He has tabled me every game so far. As I am showing him the strenghs of the armys we are playing. When he played the Tau. I held Back my CSM and let him shoot everything. Bar the last two terminators. that I charged him with. To show him that Tau are very powerfull even against charging units.

The I played as Tau And he tabled me again because I showed him that When going against an army that is very Shooty It is better to get in close with your army. I think the 12 berzerkers and Khan kill two units of Crisis suits. and two units of 12 man firewarrior teams on there own.

I tried to tell a friend that who was playing me with Dark Angels, I told him he would win easy if he used his squad of 6 bikes to charge in. But instead held them back and He conceded after turn 2. And that was no fun for either of us.

I dont like to tell people how to play, as sometimes I feel as though they think im being talking down to them. So if I am playing someone who i expect to be a little clue less about how to play one of my armies i will drop sly little remarks in to help them out. like " Wow i hope that unit of 15 berzerkers, don't charge my army" In the hope they will listene to me instead of standing 12" away will bolt pistols trying to have a gun fight with tau.

I don't think you should play weaker. Just give them sly pointers through out the match.

When I play people who obviously have less skill, I just play....less hard. Like, if they allow me to (some people don't want to be taught, they want to try and figure it out themselves), I'll say why I just did what I did and what he/she should/should've done. Not the only solution usually, but it helps teach them to look for opportunities. One kid I taught that way is now tabling most of the players in my group.

And I firmly believe that you shouldn't alter your list for them. It gets them used to seeing what kind of level they will be seeing in PuG's, and the like.

After they make a mistake or maybe after the game I talk about what went wrong for them. I'll try to help them trim the fat from their list if they want to.

Kid gloves when appropriate, but you can still punch full force. Intentionally diluting your tactics is really doing the newer player a disservice. They should be able to learn from you.

I disagree with purposely running garbage lists, but blowing a newbie off of the table with a bunch of Sabre platforms is pretty much the definition of a douche bag. In smaller games with new players who have limited collections, I generally won't run fliers. No fun beating up on a new guy because you're running something that he needs 6's to begin to address.

I've played alot of games with my nephew and his best friend over the last few years after I got them into the game and I've found that the lessons learned with them work for most low skill or young and sensitive players.

1) Don't be a dick. Mainly try not to gloat, ask before giving advice, and try to play up their success after the game. Basically, good sportsmanship.


2) Be lenient with rule lawyer stuff. I've been playing since early 3rd and often get my rules confused from the various editions I've played over the years. Anyone new to the game does the same thing but for the opposite reason, and should be allowed some leeway.

That being said, always keep the book handy and get in the habit of looking things up IN THE BOOK even if you think you know it when they ask, so they see that its ok to go to the rules if there is confusion.

Encourage them to do the same when they think they know it cold. I've found that this tends to keep petty arguments to a minimum


3) I like to start with small games and work up. 500pts at first, and angle for 1500-2000pts when they have the models. It breaks them in gradually and allows me to demonstrate how to use unit and weapon synergy slowly.

This is also true of board size and terrain density. Start small and barren and work your way up to big and dense. Cover saves, jinks, true line of sight, and all the other stuff can get in the way of grasping the basic capabilities of your troops and their inherent weaknesses.


4) If you get the chance, encourage them to field an army they both like the look of, and that is fairly forgiving for beginners. The old standby is of course vanilla marines, and since I've played them for years, I often loan out models to let them give the game a whirl before they sink $ into it.


5) Allow them to proxy. Lets be honest, this is an expensive hobby, and only getting more so all the time (looking at you Wraithknight). When someone has low skill levels or has just started ,let them play around with their options a bit without asking them to invest in it right away.

My Nephew had a tissue box tervigon for a year before he got the model, but by the time he did he was both very good with it, and happy with his purchase.

In the same vein, if giving someone advice on a list build and they insist that one or another unit is broken and or "god moded" let them proxy it in and show them why its not, then let them try other units by proxy to explore other options in the codex.


6) Play each others armies. This has been posted above, but it works.

This breaks new players from focusing on "good" vs "bad" armies or units, and instead demonstrates the need for good tactics. Any army in the game, in the hands of a good player, can be lethal and vice versa. The key is the players skill level, not the army.

For example, my nephew was convinced that Vanilla Marines were the gods of 40k as I always beat his Tyranid horde army, and his friends DE army in late 5ed.

This went on until I let him play my Marines while I used his nids. I then proceeded to hand him his and his friend their asses. This was also true when I swapped out for his friends witch based DE army.

The end result was that they both wound up with a new-found respect and confidence in their armies. It also had the side effect of stopping all the whining about broken codexes.

They also learned some neat new tactics and wound up being more knowledgeable about their opponents army.

Well usually I kind of hold my left hand out with a slice of codfish while my right hand is hidden behind my back with a baseball bat.

Then in a soft voice I say, "Come closer little baby seal I have something to show you."










Just kidding, . . .. . . . . . . maybe.

I always feel like the player of lesser skill because I can never remember ranges or what I need to roll to wound. I'm better than I used to be, but I'm still always second guessing myself on the table. Guess I spend too much time building/painting, and not enough time finding games or playing the game.

Two things:
I handicap my lists to a degree; I don't bring super competitive lists against casual or newer players.
After the game, if they're receptive to it, I might discuss play mistakes with them or offer advice on minor list adjustments.
The key, I guess, is to simply be conscious of your opponent's situation and try to make it as enjoyable as possible for both of you. After all, if you are the better player, they're probably looking to you to take the lead anyway.

I don't know, I'll have to ask my opponents how they deal with it the next time we play.

Makumba wrote:
How does it help them ? If they win ,they may think their army is good. If you take a bad army , they may think it is normal to face bad armies and that there is no need to either improve their lists or they abilities to play.

I think we're all making the unspoken assumption that during the course of the game we're going to be talking to our opponents and otherwise interacting like normal human beings.

None of your options up there actually work very well in my opinion.

I give them a point help for fresh players i give them 25% more points than I get, of course I am still taking my hard hitting units and typically using a half cream list. But as Orks it is hard to say none of the units are any good.

For my buddy who started with guard he had a lot of russes and he was squeezing in an extra russ or two with points. No big deal because new players always make bad tactical choices! He continued to shoot MANZ with the russes, i kept not rolling ones.

In my opinion the extra points let them recover from a bad tactical situation that they have created, and they realize it. If not I say something like "You are going to lose key peices if you let me get closer with these" I point. I dont tell him how to deal with it, I want his gears turning.

The following round if he beats me I wouldn't offer advice. Let his gears turn.

If he beat me that time take 10% off the extra points so he has less.

When the games start getting close, or he beats me, remove the point help completely.

You should have a good player by now. And I may bring more hard core WAAC lists just to teach that they exist.