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 Deadshot wrote:

 1hadhq wrote:
Can lead to confusion?
Its GW, thats not a mistake its a feature.

This is not true. Not GW's fault. The fact is people confuse the name "Imperator" to be interchangable with "Emperor." This is people's fault, not GW.

You didn't catch my Point ....
I was Talking about the most recent Book . First Apoc and Epic : armageddon aren't so confusing, but their latest publication may be.

 Deadshot wrote:
Fluffwise BL can't really get them right. If they tried to portray them as the game-background does, then the story would be boring. If they were antagonists, the protagonist characters and Titan (Legion) should be scrap within a paragraph. And if the protagonist Legion had them, then the story is boring because there is no struggle.

I think I read it on 40k Wiki, but I'm not so don't quote me, that Emperor Titan's void shields, armour and firepower are so great that they can even trade fire with low orbiting spacecraft. Not capital ships live Emperor class Cruisers and Battlebarges, but a Strike Cruiser.

Every faction has defenses against Emperor Battle Titans.

The Orks in Helsreach for example manage to put one in peril by luring its hothead princeps into an ambush, they detonate enough ordinance to drop a city on it, pinning it down.

Later, they proceed to of course send an even bigger Titan at them.

I think that it hurts lore more in trying to put exact numbers on certain things. For me, it's more enjoyable to better know in vague form how one thing is better than another like: lasgun is an extremely efficient weapon; Emperor titans are as high as mountains and etc. I always found GW attempts to put hard numbers on something to be distasteful.

I begin to imagine titans from this excellent piece of artwork:


Warhound titans are massive compared to conventional scale warfare, but they are small enough to use terrain such as cities as cover and hiding spots as it was seen in novel "Titanicus''. From it, I imagine reavers to be significantly larger than theirs smaller brothers and warlord titans yet again noticebly larger than reaver titans. Also, I think that warlord titans are beyond of stealth due to their large size and they are size of towering giants in battlefields.

Such as:


In comparison reavers are smaller like:



And mighty Emperor's class titans are comparable to mountains as I said:

I hate to say it, because Titanicus was my favorite 40k novel bar none, but the cover really annoyed me. For one thing I don't recall there being a single space marine in the entire book, and for another I swear the shadowy titan in the background has to be significantly bigger than the one in the foreground, even though they're obviously the same model based on the outlines (I swear it has to be bigger, maybe my sense of scale/depth perception is just broken).

They are my sources of imagination, I like to imagine titans similar to those. For me, titans are huge like that and not just pathetic few metres in height how it was painted in audio drama: ''Eye of Vengeance''.


Btw: Reaver's head should be at the level of warlord's chest. In that picture, warlord titans are little too large. Or as you say, it's depth problems. Also, those mountains in last picture are very small in size. They are just huge enough to be real mountains, but they are dwarfed compared to that we have on earth.

Ignore.

If I did and at some stage I seriously hope to make one of these, then I would most definitely make its arm weapons a plasma annihilator and a hellstorm cannon.

 Ernestas wrote:
And mighty Emperor's class titans are comparable to mountains as I said:

That's a Warlord, not an Imperator.

BaconUprising wrote:
If I did and at some stage I seriously hope to make one of these, then I would most definitely make its arm weapons a plasma annihilator and a hellstorm cannon.

Well, if Destroyer weapons still Auto-wound, auto-armour penentrate, ignore cover and inflict instant death, then you want the Vengeance cannon and Hellstorm.

Firing 4 10" Blasts with Str D, AP2, vs 6 Str 8 or 3 Str 10, AP2, with longer range and larger AoE.
But the Hellstom cannon yes. 8 pie plates of Str 9, AP3 awesome. Like 9 Basilisks rolled ominto 1 weapon. Guarenteed to wipe any MEQ off the table in one go.

This thread is a bit weird. It's a fluff background section of the forum and if anyone is off-topic here then it's only people who talk about table top game's rules.

That's a Warlord, not an Imperator.

Why not? You will be hard-pressed if you would need to find Emperor-class titan which would be significantly larger than this.

The thread is related to fluff height and height of scratchbuilt models models of the Warlord and EBT.in relation to Reaver and Warhound Titans. Tabletop rules have a relation to this. Such as their Carapce minimum range being 36", in relation to Reaver and Warlords who's carapace weapons have 12" and 24" minimum range respectively, which can help gauge the size.

But yes the weapon rules are slightly OT.


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 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Fluffwise BL can't really get them right. If they tried to portray them as the game-background does, then the story would be boring. If they were antagonists, the protagonist characters and Titan (Legion) should be scrap within a paragraph. And if the protagonist Legion had them, then the story is boring because there is no struggle.

I think I read it on 40k Wiki, but I'm not so don't quote me, that Emperor Titan's void shields, armour and firepower are so great that they can even trade fire with low orbiting spacecraft. Not capital ships live Emperor class Cruisers and Battlebarges, but a Strike Cruiser.

Every faction has defenses against Emperor Battle Titans.

The Orks in Helsreach for example manage to put one in peril by luring its hothead princeps into an ambush, they detonate enough ordinance to drop a city on it, pinning it down.

Later, they proceed to of course send an even bigger Titan at them.

That's what I'm saying. Even that amount of ordnance would barely supress the EBT and not very effective. Also, EBTs are so rare, powerful and revered that hotheads don't get one, period.

And really going by descriptions, any defences are obstacles at best. Emperor Battle Titans are THE be all and end all in ground warfare. Enough firepower to level squadrons of other superheavies, regiments of tanks, legions of soldiers, several times over. More protection than all the Aurora Chapter's vehicle pool combined. Essentially unbeatable except by extended orbital bombardment or the combined firepower of many, many smaller Titans and Titan-Hunters like the Shadowsword.

But niether the Design team or BL can create rules or stories for them that match up, because it would be so OP broken it would make Heldrakes look weak and the stories would be uninteresting.

I can use an example from "Titanicus" and grey knights novels which portrayed Emperor class titan (spoilers of course).

There emperor class titan had marched into a squad of warlord titans, probably due to his arrogance and insanity which is typical from chaos. Focused fire from all warlord titans was enough to overload its shields and to destroy it, meaning that even unsynchronized fire from warlord class titans are enough to destroy Emperor class titans. It of course would take longer due to recharging shields, but squads of warlord titans are still enough to bring these monsters down.

In Grey Knights novel, Castigator class siege titan was more advanced version of Emperor class titans, it was a relic of Dark age of technology, a pinnacle of human titan technologies. Even though, author went too far describing how advanced it was, it still might be a viable example of how powerful they are.

In that novel, warhound titan was ordered to charge into him. Scout titan made a pretty good job at damaging him and soaking up damage. He wasn't destroyed out-right by burst damage and even more, I think he had managed to inflict light armor damage on one part of that titan. Details of how battle went are vague. That scene is poorly described, but I think Castigator class titan simply was ambushed and warhound managed to get into range where his shields don't work anymore and long-range weaponary is unusable.

I'll repeat again that I really wish we could have had a longer more involved battle at that point in Titanicus. At least a couple pages of the warlords dancing around and pecking at the Emperor with a couple getting destroyed before they used the "desperate forbidden technique" and synchronized fire.

It just felt like the author doing something like "hey, I just put an Emperor titan in here...oops. How do I make it go away?"

 Ernestas wrote:

That's a Warlord, not an Imperator.

Why not? You will be hard-pressed if you would need to find Emperor-class titan which would be significantly larger than this.

What do you mean 'why not?' ... It's not an imperator because it's not an imperator. Warlord and imperator titans look completely different.

You can't really judge the size of it based on there being rocks in front of it, and the size of pretty much everything in the 40k universe varies wildly from artwork to artwork anyway. You really can't draw any firm conclusions about scale from 40k art.

I want you to provide reasons why you think it's not an Emperor class titan. Knowing adeptus mechanicus, I wouldn't be surprised if every one of them is ''hand-crafted" piece of art and because of that, their look could differ wildly.

I judge from artwork size of titans, because I find it a better representation than GW's table top hard numbers.


For me, warlord titans should be placed somewhere between these structures and Emperor titans should not be just mere metres in height, they should reach kilometres!
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tallest_buildings_and_towers_with_public_viewing_facilities.PNG

Imperator class titans tend to be characterised by the large cathedral that sits on their shoulders...

Also a titan being kilometres high would be absurd, more absurd than most things in 40k already are that is.

I meant from 1 to 2 kilometres of height.

I like w40k absurdity, then every damn thing in this universe is more deadlier than a last one. Personally, I don't find hard to suspend my disbelief then we are talking about titans size.


Btw: can anyone provide me with any source which describes Titans? I care not of race or nature of a source, even decent fan-fiction will do. I want to gather all information about them to look for clues which would suggest my theory about hand-crafting Titans.
It's OT, but I want to know if Emperor class titans have powerful enough machine spirits to actually refuse princeps if it doesn't like him? Smaller ones already interact with them and ''possess'' them. Knowing that machine spirit only grows in strength with complexity of its machinery, Emperor titans should possess spirits as strong as their possessed deamonic Titans and would be comparable with spaceships who were seen to actually bully its screws.

Emperor Titans really suffer the worf effect. Them losing to a bunch of Warhound Titans is like, the equivalent of a fit adult human soldier losing to a bunch of housecats. This isn't Dungeons and Dragons, Black Library writers. -_- Why even bother building something that probably takes more time, materials, and resources to build than an entire friggin' city if it can lose in a match-up like that?

TiamatRoar wrote:
Emperor Titans really suffer the worf effect. Them losing to a bunch of Warhound Titans is like, the equivalent of a fit adult human soldier losing to a bunch of housecats. This isn't Dungeons and Dragons, Black Library writers. -_- Why even bother building something that probably takes more time, materials, and resources to build than an entire friggin' city if it can lose in a match-up like that?

Yes, because no massive, heavily armoured war machine has ever been destroyed by significantly smaller units

The Yamato doesn't take more resources to build than an entire city (It takes generations to build one). Realistically the Emperor Titan either should win more to justify its cost, or shouldn't exist in the first place because there's no way to justify its cost.

Course, this is the same world where Space Marines are supposed to live for centuries and chapters only have a thousand marines yet they somehow persist despite how often they get butchered in the fluf and are allegedly CONSTANTLY in war (in order for a chapter of 1,000 marines to realistically be able to survive and replenish losses while being constantly in war as portrayed by the stories, they'd have to be a LOT more durable than what we're seeing of them, scalpel of the emperor or not!). Warhammer 40k logistics just get really nonsensical sometimes.

No, its where a practically godlike machine is brought down far too easily by things that by all rights should be mere annoyances. Smaller Titans and dedicated Titan hunters yes, but not when they bring them down witout suffering catastrophic losses.

 Deadshot wrote:
The thread is related to fluff height and height of scratchbuilt models models of the Warlord and EBT.in relation to Reaver and Warhound Titans. Tabletop rules have a relation to this. Such as their Carapce minimum range being 36", in relation to Reaver and Warlords who's carapace weapons have 12" and 24" minimum range respectively, which can help gauge the size.

But yes the weapon rules are slightly OT.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Fluffwise BL can't really get them right. If they tried to portray them as the game-background does, then the story would be boring. If they were antagonists, the protagonist characters and Titan (Legion) should be scrap within a paragraph. And if the protagonist Legion had them, then the story is boring because there is no struggle.

I think I read it on 40k Wiki, but I'm not so don't quote me, that Emperor Titan's void shields, armour and firepower are so great that they can even trade fire with low orbiting spacecraft. Not capital ships live Emperor class Cruisers and Battlebarges, but a Strike Cruiser.

Every faction has defenses against Emperor Battle Titans.

The Orks in Helsreach for example manage to put one in peril by luring its hothead princeps into an ambush, they detonate enough ordinance to drop a city on it, pinning it down.

Later, they proceed to of course send an even bigger Titan at them.

That's what I'm saying. Even that amount of ordnance would barely supress the EBT and not very effective. Also, EBTs are so rare, powerful and revered that hotheads don't get one, period.

And really going by descriptions, any defences are obstacles at best. Emperor Battle Titans are THE be all and end all in ground warfare. Enough firepower to level squadrons of other superheavies, regiments of tanks, legions of soldiers, several times over. More protection than all the Aurora Chapter's vehicle pool combined. Essentially unbeatable except by extended orbital bombardment or the combined firepower of many, many smaller Titans and Titan-Hunters like the Shadowsword.

But niether the Design team or BL can create rules or stories for them that match up, because it would be so OP broken it would make Heldrakes look weak and the stories would be uninteresting.

Except the Ork Giga-gargant was big enough to more or less step on EBTs.

I want you to provide reasons why you think it's not an Emperor class titan.

It isnt an Emperor class Titan because its a Warlord as shown by Purplefoods pic.
Emps are identified by their cathedral like structures on the back of them and much greater size/weaponry loadout.
It dosent matter if you believe the art you posted is interpretive or not, its a fact the pic you linked is a Warlord.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Titan

Emp
[url]
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Emperor_Titan#.UeloW23ZWkw[/url]

Warlord
[url]
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Warlord_Battle_Titan#.Uelocm3ZWkw[/url]

Orks are orks. In honesty I'e never heard of Giga-Gargants. But if that were true then low flying spacecraft would be able to crash into it.

Agreed never heard of a Giga Gargant. But who knows with Orks.

Emp VS Mega Gargant (largest Gargant variant I have seen)

 Deadshot wrote:
That's what I'm saying. Even that amount of ordnance would barely supress the EBT and not very effective. Also, EBTs are so rare, powerful and revered that hotheads don't get one, period.

Provide the fluff that states that millions+ tons of debris on top of it would not be able to suppress an EBT.

The Imperium of Man is nothing if not "inefficient". The very usage of Titans is incredibly idiotic, considering they have their own sentience that tries to override the Princeps. Which it was beginning to do.

And really going by descriptions, any defences are obstacles at best. Emperor Battle Titans are THE be all and end all in ground warfare. Enough firepower to level squadrons of other superheavies, regiments of tanks, legions of soldiers, several times over. More protection than all the Aurora Chapter's vehicle pool combined. Essentially unbeatable except by extended orbital bombardment or the combined firepower of many, many smaller Titans and Titan-Hunters like the Shadowsword.

But niether the Design team or BL can create rules or stories for them that match up, because it would be so OP broken it would make Heldrakes look weak and the stories would be uninteresting.

Rules? Sure.

Stories? In Helsreach it was only inconvenience all of twice in the story. Once, when a city was dropped on it, which it recovered from, and later when an even larger Titan was brought against it.

And of course in Mechanicus the enemy EBT just straight up was never defeated, it went through all the loyalist Titans and vehicles like they were made of tissue paper. It required causing the volcano it was standing on to erupt to take it out, in a sort of suicidal maneuver which also killed all the loyalists.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Emperor Titans really suffer the worf effect. Them losing to a bunch of Warhound Titans is like, the equivalent of a fit adult human soldier losing to a bunch of housecats. This isn't Dungeons and Dragons, Black Library writers. -_- Why even bother building something that probably takes more time, materials, and resources to build than an entire friggin' city if it can lose in a match-up like that?

no it's more like a Buffalo being taken down by a pack of wolves. Very feasable.

 Ernestas wrote:
I want you to provide reasons why you think it's not an Emperor class titan.

For one, because it looks nothing like an Emperor Class Titan, but does look like a Warlord Class Titan.

For two, because that particular artwork is from the cover art for the graphic novel 'Titan II - Vivaporius', and is the Warlord Titan Imperius Dictatio.'

 Kain wrote:

Except the Ork Giga-gargant was big enough to more or less step on EBTs.

Is there such thing? I can find nothing on it.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Is there such thing? I can find nothing on it.

It's a Gargant over twice the size of an Imperator that shows up in helsreach and squashes an entire Titan legion like ants.

I just nick-named it a Giga-gargant to go with the naming theme.