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What ignores cover do you have? What bomb lists are you playing?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MarkyMark wrote:
It is a deathstar that is ok, but against ignore cover they still die easy enough, against misfortune that reduces their saves as well. My list laughs at farsight bombs though, just like one or two lists laugh at mine, it is situationly good.

Perfect timing, so either ap2 beams or str6 ap4. More thinking of guard with colossus and wave seperant spam

Daemons buddy

Perfect timing is likely to be on 1 unit so you get 1 turn where you kill a few extra drones and then bang your ignores cover is dead, if you even roll that power...

Who takes a Collosus anyway? Though they are good against the bomb their suck factor against every other top tier army means you rarely see them. Serpents only do it with the shield and you can reasonably expect to kill 4-5 Serpents turn 1 with a proper bomb build (2 Sky rays firing all 6 missiles at a Serpent each, 3 Missilesides firing 24 S7 shots at another plus the bomb).

A proper Bomb is very difficult to beat with an army that can do well in tournaments as the things that really scare it often suck against other builds.

It is a deathstar that is ok, but against ignore cover they still die easy enough, against misfortune that reduces their saves as well. My list laughs at farsight bombs though, just like one or two lists laugh at mine, it is situationly good.

Most ignore cover is pretty limited (Helldrakes being a major exception). Things like collosus are scatter prone and fragile. Markerlights are in that same boat. most flamers are either too short range to be really useful against this unit. I'd be interested to see a list that straight laughs at a unit like this, if you have time time to type it up.

Page 39 2nd paragraph. Note how you attach to unit during deployment. You must deploy within 2" of them thus they must already be deployed. If they are infiltrating to you can't hold off Far sights deployment yo deploy with them, if Shadowsun wants to give them infiltrate they have to already be deployed and thus are not eligible to be held back for infiltrate (which requires you to not be deployed).

Space Marine FAQ (under Shrike) specifies that independent characters can join units before deployment (and allow them to infiltrate).

Longstrike sucks at dealing with AV14 less than 25% chance to kill if they have cover it just gets worse for him. Let the bomb deal with AV14 as it can with twin linked fusion.

The rest of your list is poor. The BA allies font cover any of the weaknesses of the Bomb. Whilst the total lack of AA will cost you against your worst match ups (death&despair squads, helldrakes).

The strength of the bomb has won you the tournament against better players the weakness of the rest of the list will cost you.

Skyrays and Missilesides are the best support to the bomb.

Longstrike is amazing against AV 14. 46% to penetrate, 23% to destroy is actually a REALLY good average, especially from corner to corner ranges. For example, a space marine wielded lascannon only has a 3.7% chance of destroying AV 14. A space marine wielded meltagun in melta range only has a 19.4% chance. He is a really reliable weapon.

BA Allies, if you read above, give the key synergy that makes this list so much more powerful than a normal Farsight bodyguard. The 5+ cover from shield of sanguinius is absolutely key, making the Puretide Council almost immune to 99% of shooting. They also add tough troops and deepstriking melta turn 1, so I don't have to do something really really stupid like try to use my council to melta tanks at the other end of the board which may or may not contain terminators. Death and despair is... not that good. If somehow the templates hit 5 units each, it inflicts 2.5 wounds, inevitably put on drones. Skyrays and missile sides are... not very good either imo. Skyrays can't really hurt anything, S8AP3 needs to be absolutely spammed to do damage and its markerlights don't really add too much to this list. Useful against flyers? Maybe, although all 6 of its missiles will inflict a grand total of... 2 hull points of damage to AV 12. I'm really not sure where the idea that they are good against flyers comes from. Missile sides cannot move and shoot, so their threat range is 36'' total. They can do damage to things with less than a 3+ armor save in that range (especially with the addition of missile drones), but it is not really the most viable plan to count on. I would like to add a VT+EWO ion accelerator riptide, but I really don't know what I'd take out to make that happen. Maybe Longstrike and a kroot squad? I dunno.

Iron-fist I believe you haven't play against an all nurgle MC and fate weaver list....how do you handle a 2+ cover save with no marker light. Fate weaver at 2+ save with rerolls of 1. Plus if some of my MC gets Iron Arm....I don't see this list winning any GT...maybe local tournaments. Plus blood lance can't hit FMC

Yeah, GT's are a lil out of my price range lol. Maybe one day, but probably not super soon. And yeah, I saw that in the FAQ yesterday after I posted it, I should go back and edit it so no one makes my mistake! As to 2+ rerollable cover saves, the bomb (which is most of my firepower) ignores cover. But I think you mean a 2+ rerollable invulnerable save from using the grimoire of true names... which has to be carried by another model... which means you shoot that model so he can't do it again next turn. Also has a 1/3 chance to fail. But yeah, still very tough, esp as a FMC which this list has trouble with anyway.

RAW and RAI are very clear. An IC without Infiltrate cannot join an Infiltrating squad. You are attempting to justify this by adding an order of operations where none exists and banking on an FAQ written for another codex, then applying it to a imaginative order of events to skirt a clear cut rule. To do so IMO is in very poor taste and strictly speaking against the rules. RAW is very clear, Farsight cannot join a unit of Infiltrators and I will go as far as to say that RAW it is against the rules to even deploy Farside and Shadowsun in the same unit making the Farsight Bomb illegal RAW unless the unit is deployed via deepstrike, and then it is a semantics argument which leans in favor of disallowing Farsight and Shadowsun in the same unit.

Yeah, I am tempted to agree. Now I feel bad, I like to play inside the rules and hate even making mistakes like this. Farsight and Shadowsun are definitely allowed in the same unit, nothing against that, but upon further examination I don't think he can be deployed with them at infiltration. It does look like there is a semantic argument for him to join the unit at the beginning of the game (rather than join at deployment, which is expressly forbidden by infiltrator rule) if the unit deploys in coherency with him. He certainly couldn't outflank with them or, indeed, even deepstrike with them unless you define "infiltrators" as a unit that is infiltrating rather than a unit with the infiltrate special. Damn you GW, this gak shouldn't be this hard.

Only Blood Angels get the cover save from Shield of Sanguinius, so this tactic does not work.

I think you're looking at the 5th Edition SM FaQ that is not how the rules work now. No infiltrating for the bomb.

How much is your Long strike tank for 180ish points you have a 23% chance to kill a LR that 19% for a 25 point marine? Well let's take 4 marines for little over half the cost of your tank. What is their chances now? Or for 114 points you get 4 meltaguns on suits. Again you're odds against that LR go up hugely. For a single shot he has a great chance against an LR but single shots are not the best way to deal with tanks and Longstrike is always a single shot.

Your maths is well off on the despair squads. If they can hit 5 and with a footprint the size of your squad Id expect to be able to get 6 easily enough that's 10 hits wounding on 2+ causing ID. That's 8.33 kills before the Death marks themselves shoot personally I run 2 such squads. There goes your death star if you let me get shots at it.

Your estimation on Missilesides illustrates you've never played with or against them. After the bomb they are the best thing in the codex. They murder infantry (including Terminators) and light to medium mech. The Sky rays give you an alpha strike of 12 missiles turn 1 which should be hitting on a 2+ to help for that first turn before the bomb gets into maximum range, it will also help de-mech your opponent so the bomb doesn't have to waste a turn killing transports. Then you have 4 MLs a turn that can Skyfire for support the Missilesides.

VT Riptide why? Just why? It is terrible at skyfiring. You don't rate 5 S8 hits on a flyer for 115 points but think 1.5 S7 for 210 points is a good investment? Seriously?

Iron-Fist wrote:
Space Marine FAQ (under Shrike) specifies that independent characters can join units before deployment (and allow them to infiltrate).

Sorry, SM FaQ specifies that Shrike can join a unit pre-deployment, not any IC.

Cheers

Andrew


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How are you going to maintain the link to the BA Librarian? (Even if it works, and I have doubts.) You keep saying that this is your linchpin for the bomb, but then go on to say how you keep passing any wounds to the drones. Net result you've lost the chain.

Also LoS wounds can still only be passed to within 6" even with the Tau special rule, not within the entire unit.

Cheers

Andrew

 FlingitNow wrote:
Perfect timing is likely to be on 1 unit so you get 1 turn where you kill a few extra drones and then bang your ignores cover is dead, if you even roll that power...

Who takes a Collosus anyway? Though they are good against the bomb their suck factor against every other top tier army means you rarely see them. Serpents only do it with the shield and you can reasonably expect to kill 4-5 Serpents turn 1 with a proper bomb build (2 Sky rays firing all 6 missiles at a Serpent each, 3 Missilesides firing 24 S7 shots at another plus the bomb).

A proper Bomb is very difficult to beat with an army that can do well in tournaments as the things that really scare it often suck against other builds.

One unit with a lot of firepower

With Eldar and Tau being the new go to boys for comp lists I think ignoring cover is king, also with plague bearers sporting a 2 plus cover save.

As I said before against some lists the Tau bomb is very good, it laughs at marines as does the rest of the tau dex.

I think you're looking at the 5th Edition SM FaQ that is not how the rules work now. No infiltrating for the bomb.

Nope, it's the current one. And FAQs trump the rule book, so I guess it is how the rules work now.

How much is your Long strike tank for 180ish points you have a 23% chance to kill a LR that 19% for a 25 point marine? Well let's take 4 marines for little over half the cost of your tank. What is their chances now? Or for 114 points you get 4 meltaguns on suits. Again you're odds against that LR go up hugely. For a single shot he has a great chance against an LR but single shots are not the best way to deal with tanks and Longstrike is always a single shot.

The tank is 190 pts, the way I outfit it. That is is .0012 dead landraiders per point. Space marines with lascannons are, usually, 15+25=40 pts each, ending up with an efficiency of .0009 dead landraiders per point. If you are using tacticals (as your 25 pt number would imply), well, we should probably include the "buffer" models in that equation as well and it becomes even less efficient. Then you have to consider how much more the mobility and toughness of a AV13, 4+ cover save vehicle with a decent secondary weapon system, ignoring night fight, and the nice perk of overwatching everything adds to that disparity. The dropping suits are indeed more efficient, but come in turn 2 at the earliest (after the landraider is at least mid field, maybe across the board), and are very, very vulnerable when they get there (usually get to shoot once, while Longstrike usually gets ~3 turns, sometimes the whole game depending on opponent). Then you have to include the possibility of scattering out of melta range or into something. But yeah, definitely a judgement call, I just happen to think Longstrike is very much worth it.

Your estimation on Missilesides illustrates you've never played with or against them. After the bomb they are the best thing in the codex. They murder infantry (including Terminators) and light to medium mech. The Sky rays give you an alpha strike of 12 missiles turn 1 which should be hitting on a 2+ to help for that first turn before the bomb gets into maximum range, it will also help de-mech your opponent so the bomb doesn't have to waste a turn killing transports. Then you have 4 MLs a turn that can Skyfire for support the Missilesides.

I've played with them and against. They aren't bad, but they always seem to represent a whole bunch of the army and never seem to perform the way they are expected. I find them especially underwhelming against infantry. 36'' range, same as a moving firewarrior, let's use that as a comparison. A firewarrior gets .037 wounds per point (before saves) against toughness 4. A broadside gets .029 wounds per point. Hardly the model of efficiency. At 30'' this goes up to .0529. At 21'' (notably less, but a decent comparison point) the firewarrior gets .074. They are not terrible against infantry, but surely we'd give most basic infantry the advantage in that particular category. The Council kills .017 MEQ's per point vs broadside's [equation: wounds/point=(number of shots)*(chance to hit)*(chance to wound)/(points of unit)]

But they are meant to be shooting at medium vehicles, so let's look at that. Here broadsides compete Broadsides will kill (via hull points or explodes) .0049 AV12, 3 hull point vehicles per point spent. Longstrike is a surprisingly comparable .0034 per point spent, and he is also much more useful against high AV. Pretty much a wash offencively in this category, especially since if they take velocity trackers a unit of broadsides can't hit multiple targets. Similarly, broadsides are better against infantry and are static, Longstrike is better against heavy vehicles and is mobile, again, depends on what the army needs. Just pointing out that they aren't breathtakingly efficient (for comparison, Long Fangs get .0052 kills per point invested). [equation: kills/point=(number of shots)*(to hit)*(chance of getting glance or pen/3+chance of getting pen and explodes)/(points of unit)]

However, I will 100% agree that they are clearly better against flyers than Longstrike, and about twice as point efficient as the Puretide Council, who currently fill this role in my army (.0032 for missile sides vs .0018 for the council). Does that make up for their fragility (compared to the Council, that is) and lack of mobility? A judgement call, and one I tend to disfavor them in. I just don't see them being the grand efficient winners that they seem to be made out to be.

VT Riptide why? Just why? It is terrible at skyfiring. You don't rate 5 S8 hits on a flyer for 115 points but think 1.5 S7 for 210 points is a good investment? Seriously?

Because it is useful at other things and is REALLY REALLY tough. The skyfire is a marginal utility for them (which is generally what I feel skyfire should be). I can see why you would disagree, however. Meanwhile, the skyray is pretty "meh" at just about everything.

Sorry, SM FaQ specifies that Shrike can join a unit pre-deployment, not any IC.

Semantically, no, it doesn't specify him as being special or different in this respect. It just mentions that he "has joined [a unit] before deployment."

How are you going to maintain the link to the BA Librarian? (Even if it works, and I have doubts.) You keep saying that this is your linchpin for the bomb, but then go on to say how you keep passing any wounds to the drones. Net result you've lost the chain.

In the Blood Angels codex it says "any model", and this is not modified (as many other rules in that codex has been) to Codex: Blood Angels specific. In fact, it is only mentioned in the FAQ to make it clear that it also gives vehicles a cover save. To maintain the "link" you simply keep one part of the unit (I usually trail the 2 missile suits and support suit behind) within 6'' of the librarian.

Also LoS wounds can still only be passed to within 6" even with the Tau special rule, not within the entire unit.

LOS actually has to go to the nearest model, which is why I put the two IC's at the very front of the unit and put all the drones right behind them (and closer than the other suits).

Iron-Fist wrote:

I think you're looking at the 5th Edition SM FaQ that is not how the rules work now. No infiltrating for the bomb.

Nope, it's the current one. And FAQs trump the rule book, so I guess it is how the rules work now.

I can't see how you can justify using the SM FAQ to allow the infiltrate. It references a specific model (shrike) from a different codex (SM) to allow his special rule (see but remain unseen) to function until a new dex is released. Using an alternate codex ruling to make something work the way you want it is a little dodgy to me.

The deployment rules (to me) are very clear - you have no opportunity to infiltrate the bodyguard due to the way characters deploy with units.

I have yet to see a tourney locally that allows what you want.

That said, if they rule it that an IC with infiltrate does indeed confer it prior to deployment and thus are allowed to join prior to being placed in the table - i will enjoy my illic nightspear along side a full maxed out Dark Eldar beast pack in combat with you at the start of the game

Well, since you can't assault the first turn when you infiltrate, I'm okay with you starting an expensive and toothless unit within rapid fire range. =)

And yes, it references the ability to join a unit before deployment and not as a special ability or unique aspect of the character. A strong RAW argument for what is obviously RAI.

Iron-Fist wrote:
Well, since you can't assault the first turn when you infiltrate, I'm okay with you starting an expensive and toothless unit within rapid fire range. =)

And yes, it references the ability to join a unit before deployment and not as a special ability or unique aspect of the character. A strong RAW argument for what is obviously RAI.

You seem to have misunderstood me - I am not assaulting the first turn - i am starting in base to base with you at deployment. Illics rules allow me to ignore deployment restrictions while infiltrating... thus i can start in base to base

But that reference is part of a special rule held by a character - his rule is see but remain unseen - not infiltrate.

Its not a strong RAW at all for a general ruling. Its a specific codex overruling rulebook situation. RAI could go either way. I will be happy either way!

I have a 1500pt ork list that can dish out 3 str8 ap3 large blasts, and 2 str2d6 ap2 large blasts a turn. With all that shooting at your death star, there probably wouldn't be much left of it after a turn. Its still a decent list, but like most death star lists it will have hard counters. Granted your not very likely to come by a list like that in a tournament setting, since it would most likely get creamed, but its still worth taking into consideration.

Also templates will be a problem for this list too.

 Massaen wrote:


You seem to have misunderstood me - I am not assaulting the first turn - i am starting in base to base with you at deployment. Illics rules allow me to ignore deployment restrictions while infiltrating... thus i can start in base to base

Thank god no TO is ever going to allow that. And that must be one of the worst RAW rulings GW has ever made and I'm not even sure if the rule ATM allows it because ignoring deployment restrictions doesnt ignore normal rules for having to be 1" away from enemy models.

____________________

After reading pg 32, I gotta agree with FlingitNow, no infiltrate for bomb.

Iron-Fist, what kind of loadout would you suggest for allied farsight bodyguard unit?

 Shan1 wrote:

 Massaen wrote:


You seem to have misunderstood me - I am not assaulting the first turn - i am starting in base to base with you at deployment. Illics rules allow me to ignore deployment restrictions while infiltrating... thus i can start in base to base

Thank god no TO is ever going to allow that. And that must be one of the worst RAW rulings GW has ever made and I'm not even sure if the rule ATM allows it because ignoring deployment restrictions doesnt ignore normal rules for having to be 1" away from enemy

Just for kicks, I could argue that the 1" rule applies only in the movement phase and that I am only prohibited from moving within 1", not deploying within 1". After all, scout moves are now a deployment, not a move.

My point is that just because I want to read it this way does not mean its right. Intact, I think my example is legal to use if you want to infiltrate a farsight bomb... It's raw after all

That said, if they rule it that an IC with infiltrate does indeed confer it prior to deployment and thus are allowed to join prior to being placed in the table - i will enjoy my illic nightspear along side a full maxed out Dark Eldar beast pack in combat with you at the start of the game

And of course you'd have Karandras attached

Or you'd just infiltrate 10 D-Scythe Wraithguard 1" away from the bomb and make it all go away turn 1...

The hilarity of this rules mistake should not be under estimated.

See here for further details:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/541563.page

I second that the BA librarian can't confer a cover save to a unit from another army - the FAQ reads that it only confers saves to Blood Angels. The bomb is still easy enough to keep in cover though for the 2+ saves.

To be honest, it just looks like your local competition haven't adjusted to the current meta.

I'll not take anything away, the bomb is strong, its a deathstar that can attack multiple things at once so it does address the traditional problems of limited killing power.

However, as has been stated, it'll be weak vs the things that are currently super strong, to whit. Psychic powers, FMCs and ignore cover stuff. Specifically...

Eldar with serpent spam. These guys will be firing their shields at you and 5d6+5 str 7 t/l, cover ignoring, pinning shots will almost definitely have your guys pinned and castrated after a turn of shooting + misfortune and any other maledictions they cast on you (taking advantage of it being a massive unit and getting good value from a single power cast) will mean the rest of the shooting isn't negligible.

Chaos demon screamer council (go to sons of sanguinus for an idea of the build) 4 heralds all with mastery lvl 3, getting the +2 save from fate weaver 4+ invulnerable from forewarning, able to reroll all 1s, upto 12d6 str 6 ap4 shot with perfect timing. plus it can handily take you in CC.

ANY tau army with markerlight support. Napkin math, but an overcharged ion accelerator with ignore cover should ID shadowsun and farsight 1st shot if they are the closest models. given perfect spreading 2 shots will take out the majority of its punch (9-10 models minimum)

Helldrakes

As has already been mentioned FMCs will tear you a new one. You mention grounding checks, but looking at your army (and being generous) you can force maybe 1 grounding check on any FMC before your farsun bomb has to shoot. Honestly I quite fancy those odds with a single daemon prince. And unlike any other deathstar If an I8 daemon prince makes it into combat with you (and any list with a prince in it is geared to making it into combat, 3d6 JSJ be dammed) you'll get murdered and swept/locked in combat/murderfistraped by a black mace.

So IMO to recap. Your list is strong, there is no way it needs banning from your LFGS. TBH if there was a prize (how much store credit btw?) then the guys you were playing should have brought stronger lists. In future for purely friendly games shelf it tho...or direct your opposition to this thread, bend over and lube up.

Iron-Fist wrote:

Sorry, SM FaQ specifies that Shrike can join a unit pre-deployment, not any IC.

Semantically, no, it doesn't specify him as being special or different in this respect. It just mentions that he "has joined [a unit] before deployment."

Please use the entire FaQ.

Page 92 Kayvaan Shrike, See, But Remain Unseen.
Replace this entry with the following:
“See, But Remain Unseen: Shrike (and any models in a unit
chosen from Codex: Space Marines that he has joined before
deployment) benefit from the Infiltrate special rule).

This applies only to Kayvaan Shrike, not to a general rules query, but to a specific ability/rule. The entire sentence only applies to him and not to generic characters.

Please show a general rule that allows infiltrating ICs to join units before deployment?

Cheers

Andrew

You seem to have misunderstood me - I am not assaulting the first turn - i am starting in base to base with you at deployment. Illics rules allow me to ignore deployment restrictions while infiltrating... thus i can start in base to base

But that reference is part of a special rule held by a character - his rule is see but remain unseen - not infiltrate.

Its not a strong RAW at all for a general ruling. Its a specific codex overruling rulebook situation. RAI could go either way. I will be happy either way!

Yeah, an interesting question mark right there too. You'd prolly lose people trying to get the specific parts of his special rule to apply to other parts of the squad, since it isn't specified in the rule book the way infiltrate is.

I have a 1500pt ork list that can dish out 3 str8 ap3 large blasts, and 2 str2d6 ap2 large blasts a turn. With all that shooting at your death star, there probably wouldn't be much left of it after a turn. Its still a decent list, but like most death star lists it will have hard counters. Granted your not very likely to come by a list like that in a tournament setting, since it would most likely get creamed, but its still worth taking into consideration.

Also templates will be a problem for this list too.

Yeah, the large blast alpha strike (notably from IG) is the major reason I feel that shield of sanguinius (or an Ork KFF if you prefer that) is so key to this army. It's the only way to get a 2+ cover save on the unit very reliably and that is how your weather the storm there. Templates with AP3 are pretty rare, and really only the Helldrake is a reliable delivery method for them. The popularity of that unit definitely makes that a potential blind spot in the list, but honestly I think the strength of the Helldrake stems mostly from the difficulty involved in making a list that deal with one cost effectively while not losing out against non-Helldrake-containing armies (most of them).

Eldar with serpent spam. These guys will be firing their shields at you and 5d6+5 str 7 t/l, cover ignoring, pinning shots will almost definitely have your guys pinned and castrated after a turn of shooting + misfortune and any other maledictions they cast on you (taking advantage of it being a massive unit and getting good value from a single power cast) will mean the rest of the shooting isn't negligible.

5 of these, with their normal gear (starcannon/shuriken cannon, holofields), with minimum squads of guardians only, end up costing more than the farsight bomb and will take significantly more damage from the bomb than the bomb takes from them. The Council will take 5.56 wounds from those cover ignoring weapons, plus another 1.2 from the other weapon fired. Meanwhile, at 24'' the Council will 2.0 of them per turn, going up to 3.7 per turn at 18''. They seem like they would be more effective than a lot of things though.

Chaos demon screamer council (go to sons of sanguinus for an idea of the build) 4 heralds all with mastery lvl 3, getting the +2 save from fate weaver 4+ invulnerable from forewarning, able to reroll all 1s, upto 12d6 str 6 ap4 shot with perfect timing. plus it can handily take you in CC.

Yeah, this seems VERY good. Failing 1/36 saves is stupid good. A few things that need to go right: need to roll forewarning (1/6*4*3=2, a very likely chance), need to not fail the grimoire (2/3 chance), and need to not fail the psychic test (8.33% chance). A very tough list that I have thankfully never encountered, I am truly unsure how to handle this without something like a SW libby cancelling powers on a 4+ or a really tough CC unit just to pin it down. I'd probably try to engage it with assault marines if possible. In CC, a full unit of screamers and 4 heralds (assuming no CC gear, they dont have access to much that's good anyway) kill 2.7 marines in each assault phase, so it would buy some time but not an unlimited amount. Notably the GoTN does not affect its bearer, so if you can single him out with precision shots you can get him (no eternal warrior and T3 means that he can be picked off with a single lucky plasma shot). Those are some very narrow windows, this unit looks tough as nails.

ANY tau army with markerlight support. Napkin math, but an overcharged ion accelerator with ignore cover should ID shadowsun and farsight 1st shot if they are the closest models. given perfect spreading 2 shots will take out the majority of its punch (9-10 models minimum)

Yeah, markerlights can be mean. But most armies at 1850 will only include maybe 5-6 markerlight hits turn one. That means he can strip the cover from the Council for one unit (and generally only for one turn). I actually faced this in the third game of the tournament, he was going first and had a big unit of pathfinders and a riptide. I spread out, he hit with 4 markers, stripped my save down to a 6+ for his riptide, hit 4 models, wounded 3, and I used LOS to pass them from farsight to the drones right behind him. Then they pathfinders died and his riptide had a hard time being effective.

As has already been mentioned FMCs will tear you a new one. You mention grounding checks, but looking at your army (and being generous) you can force maybe 1 grounding check on any FMC before your farsun bomb has to shoot. Honestly I quite fancy those odds with a single daemon prince. And unlike any other deathstar If an I8 daemon prince makes it into combat with you (and any list with a prince in it is geared to making it into combat, 3d6 JSJ be dammed) you'll get murdered and swept/locked in combat/murderfistraped by a black mace.

Oh yeah, FMCs are a glaring hole in this list, along with flyers. I feel like they are in most lists, because of the expense (or as I see it, opportunity cost) involved with AA options. Kroot loops will help, overwatch will help (3.9 unsaved wounds v T5 3+/5++ from overwatch with monster hunter up, not terrible considering demon princes have 4 wounds). The big thing? If I take monster hunter to try and get those good odds, I don't have stubborn and my chances of being swept before I can Hit and Run are WAYYY higher. I think normally, if I knew I was unlikely to stop him from assaulting, I'd simply take stubborn and then hit and run after the combat, turn on monster hunter again the next turn, and demolish the landed daemon (16.2 wounds per shooting phase, minus the deaths from the 3.33 wounds the daemon prince will inflict on his charge). I could definitely use more small units to try and get those grounding tests to fail, though, that would be ideal.

So IMO to recap. Your list is strong, there is no way it needs banning from your LFGS. TBH if there was a prize (how much store credit btw?) then the guys you were playing should have brought stronger lists. In future for purely friendly games shelf it tho...or direct your opposition to this thread, bend over and lube up.

Thank you! I'm quite happy with it, although this conversation has brought up a lot of things I'd like to address. The prize was just $40 (semi-monthly tournament), and yeah, this list will not be making friends any time soon (can't imagine the flabbergast involved in the 4x herald/screamer list mentioned early, rerollable 2+).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, one more:

I second that the BA librarian can't confer a cover save to a unit from another army - the FAQ reads that it only confers saves to Blood Angels. The bomb is still easy enough to keep in cover though for the 2+ saves.

The FAQ doesn't say anything about shield other than that it can affect vehicles. This is specifically different than several other rules (like Blood Chalice) which are switched to Codex:BA only.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Page 92 Kayvaan Shrike, See, But Remain Unseen.
Replace this entry with the following:
“See, But Remain Unseen: Shrike (and any models in a unit
chosen from Codex: Space Marines that he has joined before
deployment) benefit from the Infiltrate special rule).

This applies only to Kayvaan Shrike, not to a general rules query, but to a specific ability/rule. The entire sentence only applies to him and not to generic characters.

Please show a general rule that allows infiltrating ICs to join units before deployment?

He joins them before deployment. It isn't part of his special ability, that just gives them the infiltrate special rule. It also doesn't say "this allows him to join them", it jut says "joined", as though it was something he could do beforehand. Semantically, this shows the RAI and, being in an FAQ, it makes it RAW. A similar (although less specifically applicable) ruling can be found in the Ork FAQ, where IC's are allowed to join Snikrot's unit and use their ambush rule before the start of the game.

Wow, I stand corrected - I would swear blind that it was in the FAQ at the start of sixth edition that SoS only works on Blood Angels units... Do they remove things from FAQs as well as add them?

That's great news for me and my SoS librarian in a razorback - now my allied chimeras, griffons and vendetta are going to be getting handy 5+ cover saves!

I think that games workshop should be more careful about this sort of thing though and move to block it quicker - things that grant cheap 2+ saves or even 2+ re-rollable covers / invulnerables (grr fateweaver, fortune + archons, mantle of the laughing god...)

As for this list, I would be interested to see how eldar work with them as allies - I can't help but think that spiritseers and farseers on jetbikes would add a LOT to this unit!

Eldar definitely add to this list, especially since they can do a similar assault move (although it would not benefit from the 3d6 move from shadowsun). If I could count on their powers more reliably (WTF was GW thinking making eldar roll for every power like they were orks or chaos demons) I would be much more high on them. As it is, I think Eldar allies might have a very good place in Farsight Enclave lists, although I haven't really looked at it too closely yet (seeing as I don't have a full copy of the FE rules yet).

Has anyone mentioned riptides? Because one Ion Accelerator Riptide with Pathfinder support smashes this unit with one direct-hit blast.

Edit - as to the joining a unit debacle, I direct everyone to Pg. 38 BRB, Infiltrate, last text block.

An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment.

To me, this shows an RAI of not doing this Farsight infiltration, as it shows intent to not have special characters without the infiltrate rule appear as infiltrated.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Has anyone mentioned riptides? Because one Ion Accelerator Riptide with Pathfinder support smashes this unit with one direct-hit blast.

Yeah, it isn't like markerlights and Riptides are a rarity now a days.

Has anyone mentioned riptides? Because one Ion Accelerator Riptide with Pathfinder support smashes this unit with one direct-hit blast.

"Smashes" might be a bit of an overstatement, considering with proper spreading they will hit 3-4 max, with a 48.14% chance of scattering more than the radius of the blast. Then the wounds will be pawned off onto drones (one of the IC's is always put up front, with drones right behind, auto-pass LOS), avoiding the instant death thing. Then you have 1 turn, because those pathfinders have a giant target on their faces lol.

To me, this shows an RAI of not doing this Farsight infiltration, as it shows intent to not have special characters without the infiltrate rule appear as infiltrated.

Yeah, I agree, that is something I definitely played wrong. I'm wondering if he can join them "before the game begins" by being deployed normally and then having them deploy within 2'' of him during the infiltration stage? I'm not sure. Either way, farsight starting with the unit isn't 100% essential (he mostly just gives access to the bodyguard, Shadowsun is the one who gives all the juicy special rules), just a nice lil bonus.

Iron-Fist wrote:
He joins them before deployment. It isn't part of his special ability, that just gives them the infiltrate special rule. It also doesn't say "this allows him to join them", it jut says "joined", as though it was something he could do beforehand. Semantically, this shows the RAI and, being in an FAQ, it makes it RAW. A similar (although less specifically applicable) ruling can be found in the Ork FAQ, where IC's are allowed to join Snikrot's unit and use their ambush rule before the start of the game.

Which he can't actually do because the deployment rules and joining of IC to units specifically prevents this, ergo it has to be something to do with the special ability under which it is listed.

Also, FaQs are, basically, GW's equivalent of houserules. The one thing that they are not is RaW. Errata is RaW. FaQs are not.

I'm quite happy for any IC with See, but not be see ti join a unit beforehand, but infiltrate? Nah, not happening.

Semantically, this shows the RaI of SBNBS, not infiltrate, nor does it show semantically that characters can join units before deployment. BrB is quite clear on that one.

PS, I'd love to be able to join Shadowsun and infiltrate a unit of XV88s, but the deployment rules prevent me from doing so.

Cheers

Andrew

Um... the FAQ's are the errata... and the whole game is GW's house rules...

You're welcome to your interpretation, this is not a clear cut issue and hasn't been for a long time. I actually emailed GW about it yesterday and they say they always respond within 3 business days. *skeptical fingers crossed*

Iron-Fist wrote:

Very specifically, the Codex: Space Marine FAQ talks about how Shrike can join a unit before deployment and grant them infiltrate. This counters the wording in the rule book, and (similar to the ruling that rage doesn't activate with counter attack for Blood Claws applies to Nid units with rage and counter attack as well) thus subverts the writing in the book for all codices.

FAQs only apply to the book it was written for. If Shrike has a specific exception, then it is granted to Shrike and Shrike alone, not to other ICs.

Also, ICs cannot join units "before deployment." The FAQ says, a "unit...that he has joined before delpoyment." The only way ICs can join a unit without being deployed is if that unit and the IC stay in Reserve together. Otherwise, an IC begins the game joined to a unit if the IC is deployed in coherency with the unit. In 6th, there isn't the same "join before deployment" that there was in 5th. So the purpose of the FAQ is to show that Shrike can allow a unit to Outflank. Any models that do not have the Infiltrate USR in their stats cannot deploy via infiltrating.

FAQs only apply to the book it was written for. If Shrike has a specific exception, then it is granted to Shrike and Shrike alone, not to other ICs.

FAQs that rule on issues apply to all books. IIRC, an example was when, in 5th ed, the Space Wolf FAQ clarified that rage did not set off with counter attack, thus putting limits on the Tyranids as well.

Also, ICs cannot join units "before deployment." The FAQ says, a "unit...that he has joined before delpoyment." The only way ICs can join a unit without being deployed is if that unit and the IC stay in Reserve together. Otherwise, an IC begins the game joined to a unit if the IC is deployed in coherency with the unit. In 6th, there isn't the same "join before deployment" that there was in 5th. So the purpose of the FAQ is to show that Shrike can allow a unit to Outflank. Any models that do not have the Infiltrate USR in their stats cannot deploy via infiltrating.

Well, it would be nice if the rulebook and FAQ lined up, but they do not. In that situation, the FAQ trumps, hence the basis of this whole argument. And if any model that didn't have the infiltrate USR could not use it, perhaps the sentence "Units that contain at least one model..." Again, it isn't clear, but the advantage in this argument, thanks to the preeminence of FAQs, is on the side that allows it.

The line that says "a unit that contains at least 1 model..." allows things like drones who are attached to stealth teams or shadowsun to infiltrate or (prior to the new codex) striking scorpions where the exarch bought infiltrate and thus confered it to the squad.

FAQ's don;t rule on issues across all books otherwise they would be in the main FAQ or in a single gigantic FAQ for the whole game.

Despite us providing numerous points of contention to your readings of the rules, it is obvious you will not be swayed. I only hope that the TO's in your area and the players you face take the time to read the rules/visit dakka or some other forum and make themselves aware that what you are doing is presently - at very best - a grey area in the rules or - at worst - outright illegal within the rule set.

There is no denying the list would work without infiltrate via deep strike or even standard deployment but the bite would certainly be lessened in these cases.

As I said before - If they allow IC's with infiltrate to confer it to units - much like the FAQ allows for shrike and shrike alone - then i will be one happy eldar player... though i am not sure i want to be 'That Guy'