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So everyone in here is caught up in whether this list is legal or not. Can we step away from that? Nothing you say on the Internet will definitively stop Iron from using the list. Can we instead try to identify TACish choices that might minimize the damage?

How about GKs using ServoSkulls to deny infiltration and warp quake to deny DSing? Mind strike missiles or any of the plethora of anti-Psyker nonsense to obliterate the Blood Angels dude, maybe an ulmeathi plasma siphon in an inquisitorial mess to help protect whatever unit I nominate to clear the Deathstar.

How about a Callidus against the BA Psyker unit?

Iron-Fist wrote:I'd be interested to check out your version of the Council, if you wanna post a link!

Sure, here it is (post #2).

Iron-Fist wrote:This actually came up on 3++ yesterday... and a lot of people (Abusepuppy for one) were on my side of it.
http://www.3plusplus.net/2013/07/tau-codex-review-commander-shadowsun/

This doens't mean they are right... the rules are very, very clear: you can join an IC to a unit either by declaring he is with a unit in Reserve, or by placing him in coherency with the unit. And since models with Infiltrate MUST be deployed last, you MUST deploy the unit BEFORE you deploy the character. Therefore, he can't give the unit the benefits of Infiltrate. Sure, if you read only the Infiltrate rule, you think you can do it, but if you also read the rules for the deployment of ICs, you realize you can't. And that's too bad, because i wouldn't need a Libby if i could Infiltrate that unit... with no infiltrate, the bomb is just not worth its points otherwise.

Iron-Fist wrote:I'm kinda excited to see what that means for Tau. That excitement is like 100% the reason why GW introduced allies.

I'm not... since i am raping left right and center with my list, and my list will be worthless without GoI, i am not excited, i am sad. Ok, it's kinda needed because that list is just overpowered, but still, i would miss winning with it (currently 31-0). Nothing in the new SM codex can be stronger than the current combo.. give me Stormravens for 90 points each and i would STILL prefer GoI...

This doens't mean they are right... the rules are very, very clear: you can join an IC to a unit either by declaring he is with a unit in Reserve, or by placing him in coherency with the unit. And since models with Infiltrate MUST be deployed last, you MUST deploy the unit BEFORE you deploy the character. Therefore, he can't give the unit the benefits of Infiltrate. Sure, if you read only the Infiltrate rule, you think you can do it, but if you also read the rules for the deployment of ICs, you realize you can't. And that's too bad, because i wouldn't need a Libby if i could Infiltrate that unit... with no infiltrate, the bomb is just not worth its points otherwise.

Just pointing out that a lot of prominent RAW peeps have come to the same conclusions I have about it. And I think the unit (with the toughness granted from the 2+ cover at least) is still worth it's points even if that first turn isn't quite as devastating. Might lead me to including 3x missile suits rather than 2.... but I haven't had that decision yet.

Commander Farsight
Commander Shadowsun

Crisis bodyguard team
Crisis bodyguard, C&C node, MSSS, puretide neurochip, retro-thrusters, drone controller
Crisis bodyguard, 2 fusion blasters, target lock, neuroweb system jammer
Crisis bodyguard, 2 plasma rifles, target lock
Crisis bodyguard, 2 plasma rifles, target lock
Crisis bodyguard, 2 plasma rifles, target lock
Crisis bodyguard, 2 missile pods, target lock
Crisis bodyguard, 2 missile pods, target lock
12 gun drones

6 fire warriors
6 fire warriors

skyray, blacksun filter
skyray, blacksun filter
broadsides team
broadside shas'vre, HYMPs, SMSs, early warning override
broadside, HYMPs, SMSs, early warning override
broadside, HYMPs, SMSs, early warning override
6 missile drones


Librarian

5 scouts

1750

Almost exact same set up on the Council, I like it. Don't really worry about troops, huh? Just going for the table every time. Have Sky Rays been working out for you? What is their role, just anti air/light armor alpha strike? An extra markerlight here or there for the Council? And EWO's on the Broadside, what is that for, specifically? Edit: One small issue I see with this list is how to pop AV 14 without using the squad at <9''. The worst thing that can happen to this unit is to get assaulted by terminators, your list (without drop pod meltas or Longstrike's railgun) has a weakness vs the triple landraider armies you still see from time to time.

I'm not... since i am raping left right and center with my list, and my list will be worthless without GoI, i am not excited, i am sad. Ok, it's kinda needed because that list is just overpowered, but still, i would miss winning with it (currently 31-0). Nothing in the new SM codex can be stronger than the current combo.. give me Stormravens for 90 points each and i would STILL prefer GoI...

I'm not sure the farsight list is over powered compared to a lot of things, especially considering you run it with a 4+ cover save and no infiltrate. So you deploy in cover and just take the dangerous terrain tests?

How about GKs using ServoSkulls to deny infiltration and warp quake to deny DSing? Mind strike missiles or any of the plethora of anti-Psyker nonsense to obliterate the Blood Angels dude, maybe an ulmeathi plasma siphon in an inquisitorial mess to help protect whatever unit I nominate to clear the Deathstar.

How about a Callidus against the BA Psyker unit?

All of those would work pretty well, although if you deep strike the bomb you are doing it wrong (too high a chance it wont come in turn 2... need it on the board shooting). A good player will aim at the Blood Angels until they are dead, but since the power goes off at the beginning of the shooting phase, you are always protected against an Alpha strike (very important vs a variety of lists if you lose first turn) and usually will get at least 2 turns of 2+ cover with the right deployment. Honestly, I'm not afraid to just have the assault marines go to ground if they are being focused and just stretch the string of crisis suits back a little farther for the next turn.

Iron-Fist wrote:

Okay, seriously though. It is a nasty bomb, and local kids will have issues playing against it. But never will experienced GT players have a problem manhandling this list with movement and forcing you to have to expose yourself to something...be it out of LoS assaulters(Striking Scorpions) or the oncoming reserves with ignore-cover (Serpents)

It would take some seriously lucky play to put a unit that moves 6+3d6'' a turn in a position where they can be assaulted by something they can't shoot first. And keeping the serpents in reserve would be perfect: let them come on piece meal and rely on their lil' pinging shots rather than their cargo.

It certainly doesn't take 'luck' to trap units with multiple other units. On a 1v1 scenario you'd be correct, but proper army movement would force you into a position where you had to deal with multiple threats at once or suffer death the following turn. Fast Skimmers, Jetbikes and Infiltrators do a good job of 'skirmishing' the enemy into locales forcably without any 'luck'. "Lil pinging shots" that ignore cover does wonders against the bomb you field. So does the Marksman double-toughing Crimson Hunter.

I stand by my statement.

It is a solid deathstar that, like most death stars, will cause massive issues to inexperienced players. Veterans have faced them and their incarnations enough now to be able to deal with them effectively with whatever tourny list they decide to bring.

Edit: Quote issues

Iron-Fist wrote:
Just pointing out that a lot of prominent RAW peeps have come to the same conclusions I have about it. And I think the unit (with the toughness granted from the 2+ cover at least) is still worth it's points even if that first turn isn't quite as devastating. Might lead me to including 3x missile suits rather than 2.... but I haven't had that decision yet.

People that think Shadowsun allows to Infiltrate are definitely not "prominent RAW peeps"... the rules are VERY clear, and any other interpretation is everything but RAW. Quoting Shrike's FAQ means nothing, since it's a FAQ that specifically affects Shrike, you can't infer general rules from that (expecially since the BRB says the opposite, and on top of that the SM codex is an old one, when ICs could join a unit before deployment).

Almost exact same set up on the Council, I like it. Don't really worry about troops, huh? Just going for the table every time. Have Sky Rays been working out for you? What is their role, just anti air/light armor alpha strike? An extra markerlight here or there for the Council? And EWO's on the Broadside, what is that for, specifically? Edit: One small issue I see with this list is how to pop AV 14 without using the squad at <9''. The worst thing that can happen to this unit is to get assaulted by terminators, your list (without drop pod meltas or Longstrike's railgun) has a weakness vs the triple landraider armies you still see from time to time.

I don't need troops. They start in Reserve, when they arrive they hide, at least 50% of my games they don't even fire once. All i need is one troop to conquer an objective on my table side (close to the Broadsides for added safety, and if possible out of sight/behind cover - my troops go to ground if shot at), since the opponent won't have anything to conquer his objectives (most games, he won't have anything on the table at all...).

Skyrays are absolutely invaluable. If Hammerheads costed half of what they do, i would STILL pick 2 Skyrays over 4 Hammerheads. They provide you with the much needed AA, they can deal with threatening vehicles on turn one (like Manticores, for example), once they are out of missiles, that is by turn 2 at most, they become extremely low priority targets that still give ML support, they are absolutely needed for the list to be competitive.

EWO on the Broadsides is just incredibly strong. Those suits shoot like madmen, being able to pick off units that deep-strikes near you or a flyer (or a doom on spore, that is a real threat otherwise) is great. I would get EWOs even for 20 points each, and they cost a quarter of that... I can't see any reason to give them something else a support system. Best equip in the codex. Plus, there is a seriously dirty but legal trick with Interception (which i won't disclose here, i like to keep some aces up my sleeve )

AV14 are no problem at all. With my movement, i can pop a LR and still move (in the assault phase) to avoid getting assaulted by what's inside the other 2 (or by what was inside the one i destroyed). Faced it, and it was a very easy game. You just have to be smart about your positioning. As i said more than once, this list seems easy to use, and versus a clueless kid even a monkey could win with it, but versus experienced players if you make mistakes you lose. Getting assaulted by termies is a mistake, since you can avoid it with a little skill. I think this is the hardest Tau list to use effectively, but also the most powerful.

I'm not sure the farsight list is over powered compared to a lot of things, especially considering you run it with a 4+ cover save and no infiltrate. So you deploy in cover and just take the dangerous terrain tests?

Sure i do (or i move just outside a terrain and JSJ into it afterwards, if range is an issue, but if possible i tend to not rely on those 2D6 to be safe). I lose one or two drones, but my unit will have a 2+ cover save. 24" movement is enough to hop from terrain to terrain. I usually have to do it for the first 2 turns though, after that anything that can threaten me is gone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
It is a solid deathstar that, like most death stars, will cause massive issues to inexperienced players. Veterans have faced them and their incarnations enough now to be able to deal with them effectively with whatever tourny list they decide to bring.

Actually, i heard that some teams that will attend the ETC are thinking about bringing this list. And if they do, since ETC is the biggest tournament in all of Europe, with the best players of the continent, it means the list is strong even versus veterans (and extremely experienced ones). Deathstars generally have some flaws that allow them to be countered (single-target, slow after they drop, reduced survivability to focus fire, etc), but a Farsight Bomb is unique because it possesses none of these flaws.

I can't see this list being all that powerful in a tournament setting. Doesn't everyone need to take an extremely potent anti-Psyker unit to be competitive at all? Any list that can effectively target a single model or small unit and destroy it shouldn't have too much trouble with this. I always try to include this capability since potent Psykers are force multipliers, while almost every other codex unit in the game is more additive(?) in nature. (Edit) REMOVING Two models turn this list from great into mediocre: Shadowsun and the Librarian of whichever variety.

Bigfashizzel wrote:
I can't see this list being all that powerful in a tournament setting. Doesn't everyone need to take an extremely potent anti-Psyker unit to be competitive at all? Any list that can effectively target a single model or small unit and destroy it shouldn't have too much trouble with this. I always try to include this capability since potent Psykers are force multipliers, while almost every other codex unit in the game is more additive(?) in nature. Two models turn this list from great into mediocre: Shadowsun and the Librarian of whichever variety.

Yeah, sure, the two models that make it mediocre are the ones that give 2+ cover save to the whole unit and 24" precise movement each turn (if you are referring to the BA Librarian, you are right, he IS mediocre, but the SM one is absolutely necessary)... i am sure a pure Farsight Bomb, that has to rely on Reserve rolls to hope to do something, is not that mobile once it drops (thus being useless versus split forces) and can be killed pretty easily with some focus fire, is MUCH more effective... just out of curiosity, have you ever seen this list (i mean the one with SM allies) in action? Because before it became popular, a lot of people thought it wasn't strong at all, but after they got tabled in 4 or 5 turns they changed their mind.... I don't know about how it works in the US, but in Europe that list is feared a lot (and rightly so). And as i said, it will likely be brought to the the ETC, so i guess the best players in all of Europe don't realize it's not tournament-worthy...

Mis-stated. I meant removing the two units turned it from great into mediocre. They are both absolutely necessary.

I think my dark elder list could give this a run for its money. It packs 8 flamers that can get to you by turn 2 easy and is apd6 so statistically 4 of those will pierce your armor as well. Depending on how well I roll that hole unit could be gone in 1 turn. Now my type of de list isn't very common so you probably wont have to worry about it, but its still something to consider.

Teschio wrote:

Actually, i heard that some teams that will attend the ETC are thinking about bringing this list. And if they do, since ETC is the biggest tournament in all of Europe, with the best players of the continent, it means the list is strong even versus veterans (and extremely experienced ones). Deathstars generally have some flaws that allow them to be countered (single-target, slow after they drop, reduced survivability to focus fire, etc), but a Farsight Bomb is unique because it possesses none of these flaws.

Not quite, this list in the ETC will be a prey list. Your farsight bomb list does have flaws, and can be countered by a few things, I have beat a very simular list to this, the only difference being no libby (iirc it was at 1650) and kroot instead of FW's. The screamer council laughs at this as ignore cover with bolt of change and infernal gateway and flickering fire really do a number on them and they can tank a lot of shots. Add in misfortune and prescience which you have a good chance of getting misfortune.

It certainly doesn't take 'luck' to trap units with multiple other units. On a 1v1 scenario you'd be correct, but proper army movement would force you into a position where you had to deal with multiple threats at once or suffer death the following turn. Fast Skimmers, Jetbikes and Infiltrators do a good job of 'skirmishing' the enemy into locales forcably without any 'luck'. "Lil pinging shots" that ignore cover does wonders against the bomb you field. So does the Marksman double-toughing Crimson Hunter.

I'm just saying this isn't a fool proof technique, and with smart positioning on your own part you can probably avoid it. Infiltrate especially helps this.

It is a solid deathstar that, like most death stars, will cause massive issues to inexperienced players. Veterans have faced them and their incarnations enough now to be able to deal with them effectively with whatever tourny list they decide to bring.

Yeah, I'm not completely sold on my incarnation of this list. Comparing my list to Teschio's, I can see how his covers a whole lot more of the gaps, I am especially fond of the EWO broadsides, who single handedly counter a lot of "enter from reserve" tactics like D&D squads and Drop Pods. Then the drones can shoot at a separate target in your shooting phase. Just seems really good, a better configuration overall, although it depends significantly more on terrain for the vital 2+ cover save. I would love to see if the blood angels librarian could replace the GoI librarian. It just feels so strong, completely denying all the shenanigans used to kill things with cover saves, the biggest being you can spread perfectly to prevent templates and pie plates. I could see the BA librarian being better, I will still use it but I bet it doesn't catch on until after the new SM codex drops.

I don't need troops. They start in Reserve, when they arrive they hide, at least 50% of my games they don't even fire once. All i need is one troop to conquer an objective on my table side (close to the Broadsides for added safety, and if possible out of sight/behind cover - my troops go to ground if shot at), since the opponent won't have anything to conquer his objectives (most games, he won't have anything on the table at all...).

I see what you're getting at, but it is hard to give up even the option of winning by objectives. With only 2 troops, all of which are minimum 6, T3/4+/LD 7 models... I dunno, if they die to even a little bit of stray fire... it means that the an enemy just has to survive until the end of the game and hold a single objective to actually WIN. This unit is really really good, but I'm not sure you can rely on it to table every opponent every time. Just seems safer to include the option of playing the objectives.

I find the drop pod marines and 30x kroot to be a pretty flexible, semi-durable scoring force that can fill a variety of rolls. 10x kroot themselves are definitely worth the 6 pts over 6x firewarriors, because of the utility of infiltrate and outflank, the ability to make kroot loops and walls, the greater number of shots and wounds inflicted (4 MEQ wounds for 12 pulse shots, 5 for 20 kroot rifle shots), and the greater toughness due to higher model count (still not amazing, but definitely better).

Skyrays are absolutely invaluable. If Hammerheads costed half of what they do, i would STILL pick 2 Skyrays over 4 Hammerheads. They provide you with the much needed AA, they can deal with threatening vehicles on turn one (like Manticores, for example), once they are out of missiles, that is by turn 2 at most, they become extremely low priority targets that still give ML support, they are absolutely needed for the list to be competitive.

I see the utility of a sky ray, but it's hard for me to buy into them. 6 seekers just isn't that much damage. All 6 of them kill .6666 AV 12 units. Not even a single chimera, statistically! Compared to Longstrike's .51 a turn! And he is a pretty cost-effective unit vs AV14 as well. I see why you like it, it's just hard for me to buy into with numbers as limited as that. Maybe 1 for the utility of the markerlights in addition to the missiles. [equation: # of AV 12 vehicles killed=(# of shots, 6)*(chance to hit, 2/3)*[(change to take off a hull point, 1/2)/(number of hull points, 3)+(chance to penetrate, 1/3)*(chance to destroy vehicle, 1/6)]

EWO on the Broadsides is just incredibly strong. Those suits shoot like madmen, being able to pick off units that deep-strikes near you or a flyer (or a doom on spore, that is a real threat otherwise) is great. I would get EWOs even for 20 points each, and they cost a quarter of that... I can't see any reason to give them something else a support system. Best equip in the codex. Plus, there is a seriously dirty but legal trick with Interception (which i won't disclose here, i like to keep some aces up my sleeve )

As I mentioned above, I think you make a great point and I 100% agree. EWO broadsides with max missile drones seem like they could be pretty good and cover a lot of wholes people have pointed out in the list. It really helps cover the weakness to D&D squads, or Drop Pods, or deepstrikers, or even Helldrakes (kinda).

AV14 are no problem at all. With my movement, i can pop a LR and still move (in the assault phase) to avoid getting assaulted by what's inside the other 2 (or by what was inside the one i destroyed). Faced it, and it was a very easy game. You just have to be smart about your positioning. As i said more than once, this list seems easy to use, and versus a clueless kid even a monkey could win with it, but versus experienced players if you make mistakes you lose. Getting assaulted by termies is a mistake, since you can avoid it with a little skill. I think this is the hardest Tau list to use effectively, but also the most powerful.

your technique for killing landraiders leaves a LOT up to chance. You rely on the pretty good chance of exploding the landraider, but it puts you an average of 16'' away. This is in a range where a lot of units can threaten assault,doing the one thing that can really bring down the council. It just seems like, especially without Shadowsun's 3d6, you're adding more chances to get hurt into the equation. I think drop pod melta guns, or Longstrike, are flexible, useful tools that cover this particular vulnerability.

Sure i do (or i move just outside a terrain and JSJ into it afterwards, if range is an issue, but if possible i tend to not rely on those 2D6 to be safe). I lose one or two drones, but my unit will have a 2+ cover save. 24" movement is enough to hop from terrain to terrain. I usually have to do it for the first 2 turns though, after that anything that can threaten me is gone.

Some risk, some dependent on the board, but doing the math, dangerous terrain isn't THAT bad these days, with armor saves allowed to be taken. Like I mentioned above, the main problem is going to be the need to huddle into terrain, more vulnerable to blast plates that way. Not a huge difficulty, but one that could hurt depending on the game board and opponent.

Actually, i heard that some teams that will attend the ETC are thinking about bringing this list. And if they do, since ETC is the biggest tournament in all of Europe, with the best players of the continent, it means the list is strong even versus veterans (and extremely experienced ones). Deathstars generally have some flaws that allow them to be countered (single-target, slow after they drop, reduced survivability to focus fire, etc), but a Farsight Bomb is unique because it possesses none of these flaws.

100% agree. I have contended exactly this thought since I first started playing this list. It has almost none of the flaws and weaknesses in other deathstars, due to its range, its mobility, the sheer magnitude of its firepower, and its ability to 100% cost effectively take down MSU.

I can't see this list being all that powerful in a tournament setting. Doesn't everyone need to take an extremely potent anti-Psyker unit to be competitive at all? Any list that can effectively target a single model or small unit and destroy it shouldn't have too much trouble with this. I always try to include this capability since potent Psykers are force multipliers, while almost every other codex unit in the game is more additive(?) in nature. (Edit) REMOVING Two models turn this list from great into mediocre: Shadowsun and the Librarian of whichever variety.

Well, in the unit independent characters are all but invincible, automatically passing LOS rolls. The librarian is less secure, and that is one reason I think Teschio's list is superior to mine. A smart of resourceful player could single him out reasonably well, leaving me with only the first turn with an auto 2+ cover save. There aren't many psychic defences that help vs non-targeting powers,

Yeah, sure, the two models that make it mediocre are the ones that give 2+ cover save to the whole unit and 24" precise movement each turn (if you are referring to the BA Librarian, you are right, he IS mediocre, but the SM one is absolutely necessary)... i am sure a pure Farsight Bomb, that has to rely on Reserve rolls to hope to do something, is not that mobile once it drops (thus being useless versus split forces) and can be killed pretty easily with some focus fire, is MUCH more effective... just out of curiosity, have you ever seen this list (i mean the one with SM allies) in action?

A deepstriking farsight bomb is stupid, it needs to be deployed to be effective, you're right there. I don't think the BA librarian is "mediocre" though, I had considered your version quite a bit and i liked the Shadowsun Warlord power so much, and the guaranteed 5+ cover power added so much to the army, that I decided on the BA. It works pretty well and has some advantages to it. I very much agree with your ideas on broadsides, however, I think they will be included in my lists from now on.

Because before it became popular, a lot of people thought it wasn't strong at all, but after they got tabled in 4 or 5 turns they changed their mind.... I don't know about how it works in the US, but in Europe that list is feared a lot (and rightly so). And as i said, it will likely be brought to the the ETC, so i guess the best players in all of Europe don't realize it's not tournament-worthy...

I agree, it is a list that break a lot of rules of thumb (don't overdo independent characters, don't put all your eggs in one basket, troops should be a major part of the army) and a lot of people seem to just dismiss it. But the sheer numbers involved are intimidating.

Iron-Fist wrote:
I'm just saying this isn't a fool proof technique, and with smart positioning on your own part you can probably avoid it. Infiltrate especially helps this.

No it doens't since the unit can't Infiltrate I know you disagree with this, but page 39 of the BRB is pretty clear on that.

I see what you're getting at, but it is hard to give up even the option of winning by objectives. With only 2 troops, all of which are minimum 6, T3/4+/LD 7 models... I dunno, if they die to even a little bit of stray fire... it means that the an enemy just has to survive until the end of the game and hold a single objective to actually WIN. This unit is really really good, but I'm not sure you can rely on it to table every opponent every time. Just seems safer to include the option of playing the objectives.

First, i have 3 troops (scouts are used in the same exact way, they start in Reserve and hide. Plus, they can enter from a table side if i need to). The opponent can't win even if he kills all my troops, because maybe i can't table him, but i can make damn sure that his scoring units die as well. Then i win with Linebreaker, First Blood (almost ensured with this list, expecially if you have first turn) and Warlord (he sure as hell can't kill mine...). This is probably the only list with minimal scoring units that works (i guess Necrons with 3 x 5 warriors on scythes and 18 wraiths is the only other one).

I find the drop pod marines and 30x kroot to be a pretty flexible, semi-durable scoring force that can fill a variety of rolls. 10x kroot themselves are definitely worth the 6 pts over 6x firewarriors, because of the utility of infiltrate and outflank, the ability to make kroot loops and walls, the greater number of shots and wounds inflicted (4 MEQ wounds for 12 pulse shots, 5 for 20 kroot rifle shots), and the greater toughness due to higher model count (still not amazing, but definitely better).

Shooting with troops means exposing them. And since those things shoot less than Broadsides, i prefer to have those. This list is pure firepower.

I see the utility of a sky ray, but it's hard for me to buy into them. 6 seekers just isn't that much damage. All 6 of them kill .6666 AV 12 units. Not even a single chimera, statistically! Compared to Longstrike's .51 a turn! And he is a pretty cost-effective unit vs AV14 as well. I see why you like it, it's just hard for me to buy into with numbers as limited as that. Maybe 1 for the utility of the markerlights in addition to the missiles. [equation: # of AV 12 vehicles killed=(# of shots, 6)*(chance to hit, 2/3)*[(change to take off a hull point, 1/2)/(number of hull points, 3)+(chance to penetrate, 1/3)*(chance to destroy vehicle, 1/6)]

First, i don't need to destroy a vehicle. A Manticore that has a crew shaken/stunned result or a weapon destroyed result if perfectly fine. Second, you made your calculations with BS4, which means that none of my 2 networked MLs hits. Third, they are very good vs MCs too (with a single ML hit, there is a good chance to kill a Tervigon on turn 1, or at least wound it enough that a few plasma shots will kill it. Hell, even without any ML hit they do 4 wounds on a Wraithknight!). Forth, and most importantly, they provide AA, something your list lacks a lot. And in the meta around here, there are quite a few flyers. Heldrakes are dangerous enough, you don't want them to shoot twice...

your technique for killing landraiders leaves a LOT up to chance. You rely on the pretty good chance of exploding the landraider, but it puts you an average of 16'' away. This is in a range where a lot of units can threaten assault,doing the one thing that can really bring down the council. It just seems like, especially without Shadowsun's 3d6, you're adding more chances to get hurt into the equation. I think drop pod melta guns, or Longstrike, are flexible, useful tools that cover this particular vulnerability.

Well, the chances of exploding a LR are really, really high compared to what you have.... 4 twin-linked Fusion Blasters, 2 of which at BS5, with Tank Hunter as well! Your meltaguns are a lot less effective than that... plus, consider that Overwatch kills 2.666 Terminators on average, plus the ones that will die with Farsight's attacks (1.19 wounds, and maybe some 1s rolled on armor saves from Crisis attacks too, they still have S5). If 2 terminators get to attack me, you are being lucky. I can definitely survive that: they will kill drones, plus i will have H&R, if i fail my morale check i have ADSKNF, which is even better, and even if i fail my H&R roll, i can still disengage with GoI next turn! As you can see, i am not that scared of termies, because i saw what i can do agains them... oh, when i was talking about proper placement, i meant using terrain as well. Moving and assaulting through difficult terrain will slow them a lot.

Some risk, some dependent on the board, but doing the math, dangerous terrain isn't THAT bad these days, with armor saves allowed to be taken. Like I mentioned above, the main problem is going to be the need to huddle into terrain, more vulnerable to blast plates that way. Not a huge difficulty, but one that could hurt depending on the game board and opponent.

Sure, all my models huddle together, but blast plates mean nothing when you have a 2+ cover save... I agree it depends on terrain, but luckily around here tables are not short on terrain.

Well, in the unit independent characters are all but invincible, automatically passing LOS rolls. The librarian is less secure, and that is one reason I think Teschio's list is superior to mine. A smart of resourceful player could single him out reasonably well, leaving me with only the first turn with an auto 2+ cover save. There aren't many psychic defences that help vs non-targeting powers.

This is actually the main problem with your list (apart from the fact that you are a lot less mobile): a smart opponent will throw everything he has on the Librarian unit and kill him. After that, either the bodyguards are unprotected (so they die with saturation, 4+ cover save is not enough) or you are forced to stay in a terrain, therefore limiting a lot you effectiveness.

No it doens't since the unit can't Infiltrate I know you disagree with this, but page 39 of the BRB is pretty clear on that.

I explained my arguments on this earlier in the thread, I'm pretty much just running with it as a given at this point.

First, i have 3 troops (scouts are used in the same exact way, they start in Reserve and hide. Plus, they can enter from a table side if i need to). The opponent can't win even if he kills all my troops, because maybe i can't table him, but i can make damn sure that his scoring units die as well. Then i win with Linebreaker, First Blood (almost ensured with this list, expecially if you have first turn) and Warlord (he sure as hell can't kill mine...). This is probably the only list with minimal scoring units that works (i guess Necrons with 3 x 5 warriors on scythes and 18 wraiths is the only other one)....

Shooting with troops means exposing them. And since those things shoot less than Broadsides, i prefer to have those. This list is pure firepower.

Unless he also holds his troops in reserve, plays the same game you do. Just saying... its a potential flaw in the list that you may want to address at some point. I know the list puts out a lot of fire power, but there are some armies that can weather it and many that can try and dodge it for a few turns. I think being able to confidently secure objectives would help round it out quite a bit.

First, i don't need to destroy a vehicle. A Manticore that has a crew shaken/stunned result or a weapon destroyed result if perfectly fine. Second, you made your calculations with BS4, which means that none of my 2 networked MLs hits. Third, they are very good vs MCs too (with a single ML hit, there is a good chance to kill a Tervigon on turn 1, or at least wound it enough that a few plasma shots will kill it. Hell, even without any ML hit they do 4 wounds on a Wraithknight!). Forth, and most importantly, they provide AA, something your list lacks a lot. And in the meta around here, there are quite a few flyers. Heldrakes are dangerous enough, you don't want them to shoot twice...

At BS 5... each one would inflict 2.8 wounds on a tervigon in cover. And then they are out of ammo. And they really can't hurt a whole lot, adding a markerlight hit pushes them up to .74 AV12/turn. The markerlight hits are useful though, if only to increase the snapshot power of Farsight. I could see taking one, but I'd be loath to limit my anti AV14 for it. It isn't bad, I just don't think it's actually as clear a choice as you are professing right now.

Well, the chances of exploding a LR are really, really high compared to what you have.... 4 twin-linked Fusion Blasters, 2 of which at BS5, with Tank Hunter as well! Your meltaguns are a lot less effective than that... plus, consider that Overwatch kills 2.666 Terminators on average, plus the ones that will die with Farsight's attacks (1.19 wounds, and maybe some 1s rolled on armor saves from Crisis attacks too, they still have S5). If 2 terminators get to attack me, you are being lucky. I can definitely survive that: they will kill drones, plus i will have H&R, if i fail my morale check i have ADSKNF, which is even better, and even if i fail my H&R roll, i can still disengage with GoI next turn! As you can see, i am not that scared of termies, because i saw what i can do agains them... oh, when i was talking about proper placement, i meant using terrain as well. Moving and assaulting through difficult terrain will slow them a lot.

ATSKNF is really good, and I like that GoI disengage trick, hadnt thought about that before. I just worry about when this situation goes wrong, or if there are multiple land raiders. Maybe my fear is unfounded.

Sure, all my models huddle together, but blast plates mean nothing when you have a 2+ cover save... I agree it depends on terrain, but luckily around here tables are not short on terrain.

2+ except from things that ignore cover, like the deadly Helldrake. It's just a trade off, I still think in most situations the SM librarian comes out ahead but the BA librarian has an advantage here and on boards with little useable area terrain.

This is actually the main problem with your list (apart from the fact that you are a lot less mobile): a smart opponent will throw everything he has on the Librarian unit and kill him. After that, either the bodyguards are unprotected (so they die with saturation, 4+ cover save is not enough) or you are forced to stay in a terrain, therefore limiting a lot you effectiveness.

I agree. 10x assault marines with a 5+ cover save (4+ if they GTG), are not invincible. But as long as the libby is alive, you get that whole next turn of shooting because it happens at the beginning of their shooting phase. Lets you deploy without depending on terrain even going second against big alpha strikes. And right now, you are relying on terrain for your cover save... limiting your effectiveness. That's the advantage of my particular variation.

If I may ask, what exactly is your plan if/when you face a horde army? I may be wrong, but im not noticing enough firepower in your list to stop say 180 orks charging at you.

Just the deathstar. With the drones, the unit kills about 23 ork EQ's every turn. In my list, kroot, the hammerhead, and assault marines help. In Teschio's his broadsides add a lot of firepower in that regard, plus markerlights from the skyrays.

Did you include the fact that they would have a 5+ cover save, assuming you did then that would mean you would be able to kill roughly half the boyz off before their in charge range, but even then that's 90 boyz you still gotta deal with, and one squad alone could tarpit your deathstar down for at least 2 turns, while the other two start tearing into the rest of your army, also there would most likely be about 20+ lootas in the backfield shooting at your kroot and hammerhead the hole time which could possibly mean the deathstar is the only thing left by the time the boyz get to you.

Also a nob biker deathstar could be a big problem if they can get to your deathstar fast enough.

The list is good but as with all deathstars, it isn't unbeatable.

BA is an interesting ally choice. Frankly, it wouldn't be my ally of choice. Space marines are better, though there is much controversy surrounding the GoI librarian. However the weakness of this build is that I believe you lose your assault move if a model without it joins the unit.

The best ally would be Eldar. This is what I would add:

Farseer - Jetbike
3x Guardian Jetbikes
3x Guardian Jetbikes (I prefer 2 of these units if you can fit them in.)
10x Warp Spiders (optional, though I really like them)

For such a small investment, you bring a lot to the deathstar and army:

1. Psychic defense.

2. Awesome psychic powers such as Fortune, Doom, Guide, Prescience, Forewarning (for close combat) and Misfortune.

3. Highly mobile scoring units

4. The ability to still move 3D6" in the assault phase (assuming Shadowsun is the Warlord).


Also, your list is good, but I can see much improvement just by adding some riptides.


This would probably be my ideal Farsight list at 1850:


Farsight
Shadowsun
"The 7 Dwarves"

Farseer - Jetbike

3x10 Kroots
3x Jetbikes

Riptide - EWO, VT, Fusion, IA
Riptide - EWO, VT, SMS, HBC


Now you have a highly mobile army with hardly any static parts. The farseer can dole out Prescience/Guide to the riptides to minimize Overheats as well.

Deathstar ignores cover saves. And you kill the ones that are closest, infantry aren't fast enough to catch this unit (either with shadowsun's warlord trait or a GoI librarian).

Nob Bikers are tough, but they'll get 10 wounds in one turn of rapid fire shooting (assuming invuls and FNP). And they can't really catch the unit if it moves intelligently.

x2 Necron death and despair squads would annihilate that deathstar in a shooting phase for a fraction of the points with that lovely ap1 flamer wounding on 2's

Next

Iron-Fist wrote:
Deathstar ignores cover saves. And you kill the ones that are closest, infantry aren't fast enough to catch this unit (either with shadowsun's warlord trait or a GoI librarian).

Nob Bikers are tough, but they'll get 10 wounds in one turn of rapid fire shooting (assuming invuls and FNP). And they can't really catch the unit if it moves intelligently.

Well catching the unit isn't the question, you cant simply go around a horde all you can do is move back until the inevitable happens, but the question would be how long it takes the horde to get to you.

Jy2 that list has literally no anti air. Your bomb gets nailed by Helldrakes and D&D squads in Nightscythes. Plus you have no real way to de-mech your opponent so your bomb is going to waste the first few valuable turns killing Rhinos and Chimeras and the like.

Also why VTs on Riptides? Wasted points. Plays the Riptides need ML support to be fully effective.

Riptides are a horrid mix with the bomb.

It also seems you haven't taken drones on the bomb which is always a mistake.

I can't see D&D squads causing Teschio's list a huge problem unless he's aggressive with the bomb. But they do provide a strong tactical advantage of forcing him to be defensive with his bomb until the squads come on. You need multiple squads with multiple flamers each though as 1 flamer would just mean a load of dead drones.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Jy2 that list has literally no anti air. Your bomb gets nailed by Helldrakes and D&D squads in Nightscythes. Plus you have no real way to de-mech your opponent so your bomb is going to waste the first few valuable turns killing Rhinos and Chimeras and the like.

Also why VTs on Riptides? Wasted points. Plays the Riptides need ML support to be fully effective.

Riptides are a horrid mix with the bomb.

It also seems you haven't taken drones on the bomb which is always a mistake.

I can't see D&D squads causing Teschio's list a huge problem unless he's aggressive with the bomb. But they do provide a strong tactical advantage of forcing him to be defensive with his bomb until the squads come on. You need multiple squads with multiple flamers each though as 1 flamer would just mean a load of dead drones.

I'm looking to build a bomb list and was wondering about this. I'll admit I'm attracted to riptides due to their mobility. Why are they bad at anti air? My meta is not majorly flyer focused, why is the synergy bad with the riptides?

I'm building my list at 1850, btw.

Riptides are bad at AA because they don't do much damage to flyers for their points. At 200+ with VTs they either get 1.5 S7 hits with Ion (even unguided Warp Spiders get 3 S7 hits for 190 points) or 4 S6 hits. The HBC needs Nova charge to be a threat but you need a 3+ to get that. Hence the Earth cast pilot from the new supplement is the only way to really make the Riptide a serious threat to flyers. Even then it is not massively effective, but decent AA.

The reason the Riptides don't dovetail well with the bomb is they do largely the same job. This means you don't cover any of your weaknesses. Plus the Riptides require ML support to be truly effective which adds further points to their cost whilst offering up a very soft target in the shape of pathfinders for First Blood.

So your list will then lack AA, whilst it will also have the bomb having to do the inefficient job of killing transports. And give up First Blood easily...

 FlingitNow wrote:
Jy2 that list has literally no anti air. Your bomb gets nailed by Helldrakes and D&D squads in Nightscythes. Plus you have no real way to de-mech your opponent so your bomb is going to waste the first few valuable turns killing Rhinos and Chimeras and the like.

Also why VTs on Riptides? Wasted points. Plays the Riptides need ML support to be fully effective.

Riptides are a horrid mix with the bomb.

It also seems you haven't taken drones on the bomb which is always a mistake.

There are drones. I just didn't feel like listing out everything in the bomb so just called it the 7 dwarves.

Riptides are my anti-air solution. The bomb can do it in a pinch as well. Personally, I'd rather take 2 HBC's over 1 HBC + 1 IA for the riptides, but everyone seems to be in love with the Ions. Anyways, the 2 are interchangeable, though I'd recommend at least 1 HBC for AA duties.

I really don't understand your opinion of why riptides are "horrid" with the bomb. They make the army fully mobile and can actually get away from threats.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Riptides are bad at AA because they don't do much damage to flyers for their points. At 200+ with VTs they either get 1.5 S7 hits with Ion (even unguided Warp Spiders get 3 S7 hits for 190 points) or 4 S6 hits. The HBC needs Nova charge to be a threat but you need a 3+ to get that. Hence the Earth cast pilot from the new supplement is the only way to really make the Riptide a serious threat to flyers. Even then it is not massively effective, but decent AA.

The reason the Riptides don't dovetail well with the bomb is they do largely the same job. This means you don't cover any of your weaknesses. Plus the Riptides require ML support to be truly effective which adds further points to their cost whilst offering up a very soft target in the shape of pathfinders for First Blood.

So your list will then lack AA, whilst it will also have the bomb having to do the inefficient job of killing transports. And give up First Blood easily...

Are you kidding me? Riptides bad at AA? Have you ever tried a riptide with skyfire, inteceptor and 12 HBC rending shots and Prescience/Guide?

But more importantly, the threat they represent to flyers will keep the flyers away or at least slow down their alpha-strike.

Moreover, the SMS can actually hurt light flyers as well as to deny their jink saves.

Prescience/Guide makes for a decent substitute for markerlights in regards to shooting accuracy.

If you don't think the tides can hurt transports, then you really under-estimate the riptide. Nova-charged HBC's can hurt most vehicles, including land raiders. It actually has a better chance than a lascannon to damage AV14.

As for hurting MSU transports, hey....this is a deathstar list. Targeting multiple units will always be a weakness of such builds. So what's new?

Are you kidding me? Riptides bad at AA? Have you ever tried a riptide with skyfire, inteceptor and 12 HBC rending shots and Prescience/Guide?

With Prescience/Guide and a successful nova charge a HBC Riptide is decent at AA. But you need the Nova charge to work which you can't rely on without an Earthcast pilot. Yes the Farseer helps too. 9 S6 rending hits on a flyer is fairly good and should get a pen through against a Helldrake and a pen and glance against a jinking Nightscythe and will kill an AV10 flyer. However 4 S6 hits or 1.5 S7 hits isn't a threat to a flyer.

Remember a flyer heavy opponent will kill your Farseer first. He's only got 3 T4 wounds for company and will go away to any concerted fire. Then no guide/prescience for you and you fail that 3+ and you're back to 4 S6 hits and 1.5 S7 for about 450 points of your army shooting. So yes Riptides are poor AA situationally with a Farseer and the right equipment than can be decent AA. If you're basing your lists AA on Riptides you are in trouble if your opponent has brought competitive Necrons or Chaos Marines.

Whilst the prescience/guide can help the Riptide it is the ignores cover that makes the Ion really work.

Yes the HBC Riptide can and does support the Bomb much better than the superior Ion variant. But if and only if you can consistently Nova charge the cannon. Why take that risk when so much else in the Tau codex can support the bomb without relying on a 3+ each turn?

flaming tadpole wrote:Did you include the fact that they would have a 5+ cover save, assuming you did then that would mean you would be able to kill roughly half the boyz off before their in charge range, but even then that's 90 boyz you still gotta deal with, and one squad alone could tarpit your deathstar down for at least 2 turns, while the other two start tearing into the rest of your army, also there would most likely be about 20+ lootas in the backfield shooting at your kroot and hammerhead the hole time which could possibly mean the deathstar is the only thing left by the time the boyz get to you.

Also a nob biker deathstar could be a big problem if they can get to your deathstar fast enough.

No, they won't have Cover save. With 180, my Broadsides can find a unit with no cover save to shoot at (180 orks ALL in cover?), and SMS Ignore Cover anyways. The Bomb itself Ignores Cover thanks to MSSS. And they won't tarpit me because they will never be able to assault me. With OP's list no, they can't be avoided, and sooner or later they will assault, but with mine, 24" movement (+2D6") is more than enough to ensure those boyz will never assault me.

Lootas have a hard time killing Skyrays (which since they won't move all game, will be deployed in cover). Behind cover, 30 lootas that ALL roll a 3 on the number of shots do 2.5 glancing hits on one. Broadsides will be under cover too, and since nothing has AP2 i won't even put drones on the front.

Nob bikers? Yes please.... i can kill quite a few of them easily, they will never be able to survive long enough to assault me.

jy2 wrote:BA is an interesting ally choice. Frankly, it wouldn't be my ally of choice. Space marines are better, though there is much controversy surrounding the GoI librarian. However the weakness of this build is that I believe you lose your assault move if a model without it joins the unit.

You don't lose the JSJ movement. Simply, the character who is not Jet Pack Infantry doesn't move, but the rest of the unit does, while keeping coherency. Think about it a little, and you will see how that can be exploited to get a 5-6" movement each turn.

The best ally would be Eldar. This is what I would add:

Farseer - Jetbike
3x Guardian Jetbikes
3x Guardian Jetbikes (I prefer 2 of these units if you can fit them in.)
10x Warp Spiders (optional, though I really like them)

For such a small investment, you bring a lot to the deathstar and army:

1. Psychic defense.

2. Awesome psychic powers such as Fortune, Doom, Guide, Prescience, Forewarning (for close combat) and Misfortune.

3. Highly mobile scoring units

4. The ability to still move 3D6" in the assault phase (assuming Shadowsun is the Warlord).


Also, your list is good, but I can see much improvement just by adding some riptides.


This would probably be my ideal Farsight list at 1850:


Farsight
Shadowsun
"The 7 Dwarves"

Farseer - Jetbike

3x10 Kroots
3x Jetbikes

Riptide - EWO, VT, Fusion, IA
Riptide - EWO, VT, SMS, HBC


Now you have a highly mobile army with hardly any static parts. The farseer can dole out Prescience/Guide to the riptides to minimize Overheats as well.

I used Eldars before the new codex, now they are trash as an ally. Yes, the new Eldars are strongest than the old ones, but not for what i needed: runes of warding. They were incredible, they really provided a huge psychic defence. But the new Eldar? No, they don't provide defence at all! Plus, 3 bikes with a Farseer can be killed easily by a smart opponent. Remember that to cast Blessings and Maledictions you have to see the target... 3+ cover save is not enough to survive.

Oh, and Riptides are trash. First, they need MLs to be effective, but the rest of the list does not. Second, they may be viable in a regular Tau list (even though sometimes i feel Crisis can do the same job better), but in THIS list, they don't give me anything i need. I need saturation, and the Broadsides give me that. I need alpha strikes and AA, and this is why Skyrays are there. What do Riptides give me? A lot of people love them (partly because of the model, which is really cool), but i feel they are not the most competitive choice in the codex. A bit overrated in general, they become a bad choice with no ML support, and an horrible choice in a Farsun Bomb.

Alright, I think I see where you're getting at re: the riptides. I do wonder though, is it possible to make this list competitive without relying on the SM librarian? Quite frankly I think it's a fantastic pairing, but I don't want to be getting into arguments about GoI and whether or not the unit can JSJ every single game. Any thoughts here?

 FlingitNow wrote:
Remember a flyer heavy opponent will kill your Farseer first. He's only got 3 T4 wounds for company and will go away to any concerted fire. Then no guide/prescience for you and you fail that 3+ and you're back to 4 S6 hits and 1.5 S7 for about 450 points of your army shooting. So yes Riptides are poor AA situationally with a Farseer and the right equipment than can be decent AA. If you're basing your lists AA on Riptides you are in trouble if your opponent has brought competitive Necrons or Chaos Marines.

Whilst the prescience/guide can help the Riptide it is the ignores cover that makes the Ion really work.

Yes the HBC Riptide can and does support the Bomb much better than the superior Ion variant. But if and only if you can consistently Nova charge the cannon. Why take that risk when so much else in the Tau codex can support the bomb without relying on a 3+ each turn?

You do realize that the farseer will be in the bomb unit, right? Not so easy to kill him with potentially 2+ cover and Look-Out-Sirs. Besides, the sources for markerlights (i.e. pathfinders, markerdrones) can normally be killed much easier than the farseer unless you invest a considerable amount of points to take them en masse.

SMS can ignore cover. And if you really want, you can add some markerlights to my list. At 1850, there may actually be enough points to run a 3rd riptide after dropping 1 unit of kroots.

HBC riptides are better as AA support because 1) they're cheaper with skyfire+interceptor than missile-sides, 2) they can cover a wider range of the board because they're much more mobile than missile-sides and 3) they are more flexible overall, being able to handle anything from infantry to land raiders.

There's a reason why some of the best players in the US run triptides. And I am talking about a GT winner.

The game is about taking risks. If you want to play it safe all the time, you can forget about winning some games. With 10-15 wounds (depending on taking 2 or 3 riptides), you will survive failed Nova-charges. Also, 8 S6 shots is still respectable, especially with Prescience.

Teschio wrote:

jy2 wrote:BA is an interesting ally choice. Frankly, it wouldn't be my ally of choice. Space marines are better, though there is much controversy surrounding the GoI librarian. However the weakness of this build is that I believe you lose your assault move if a model without it joins the unit.

You don't lose the JSJ movement. Simply, the character who is not Jet Pack Infantry doesn't move, but the rest of the unit does, while keeping coherency. Think about it a little, and you will see how that can be exploited to get a 5-6" movement each turn.

I don't have my dex with me so I will take your word for it.

Teschio wrote:
I used Eldars before the new codex, now they are trash as an ally. Yes, the new Eldars are strongest than the old ones, but not for what i needed: runes of warding. They were incredible, they really provided a huge psychic defence. But the new Eldar? No, they don't provide defence at all! Plus, 3 bikes with a Farseer can be killed easily by a smart opponent. Remember that to cast Blessings and Maledictions you have to see the target... 3+ cover save is not enough to survive.

Before and after are 2 very different things. I suggest you try using them again before proclaiming them trash. And the old RoW was just complete bullsh*t. You are living in the past if that is your expectations of the new eldar.

What the farseer provides is a 4+/5+ Deny save to the unit for psychic defense. No, that is no where near the level of the old Runes, but it is an improvement over the 6+ Deny save.

And why the hell is everyone thinking that the farseer goes with the jetbikes? He joins the bomb, not the guardians. Guardians stay in reserves and when they come in, they hide. They go for the T5 objective grab and that is a tactic that has won so many eldar players so many games. Really now, I don't understand why people are bagging on armies they don't really understand.

Teschio wrote:
Oh, and Riptides are trash. First, they need MLs to be effective, but the rest of the list does not. Second, they may be viable in a regular Tau list (even though sometimes i feel Crisis can do the same job better), but in THIS list, they don't give me anything i need. I need saturation, and the Broadsides give me that. I need alpha strikes and AA, and this is why Skyrays are there. What do Riptides give me? A lot of people love them (partly because of the model, which is really cool), but i feel they are not the most competitive choice in the codex. A bit overrated in general, they become a bad choice with no ML support, and an horrible choice in a Farsun Bomb.

ML do make them better....but so does psychic powers. You want saturation? Then you've got it. They are cheaper than broadsides, thus giving you more points to get skyrays if you want. They also don't compete against the skyrays in terms of FOC slots. Don't get me wrong. Broadsides are good. However, taking broadsides (assuming units of 3) actually take away from your target saturation just by the simple fact that they are a more costly unit. Thus, you take them, you have less points for other units.

There's a reason why the winning GT Tau build here in the US included 3 riptides and 3 skyrays.

Teschio wrote:

jy2 wrote:I really don't understand your opinion of why riptides are "horrid" with the bomb. They make the army fully mobile and can actually get away from threats.

They are horrid because they don't do anything you need, and they cost a lot. Not a bad unit in general (actually, that is debatable, more and more experienced players i know think they are not worth their points), but a list is about synergy, not random units put together. In this list, everything they do can be done better by something else, therefore they are not the best choice (plus, as i already said, no ML support turns them from half-decent to crappy in any list).

Yes, I don't need more firepower. I don't need mobility that can match the farsight bomb and can get away from assault units. I don't need more AA capability. I don't need a rugged unit that can't be 1-shotted by a lascannon or drop-podding meltas. I don't a unit that is flexible enough to handle all threats and not just infantry. I don't need a unit that is "expensive" at 200-pts, and yet would be wiser to take a unit that is less flexible and cost more than 250pts?!? Is there anything else the riptides bring that I don't need?

And if you cannot see the synergy in this list, then I seriously wonder about your tactical acumen. Sorry, don't mean to be rude, but your advice sounds like theoryhammer without practical experience insofar as riptides are concerned.

Teschio wrote:

jy2 wrote: Nova-charged HBC's can hurt most vehicles, including land raiders. It actually has a better chance than a lascannon to damage AV14.

That's true. Too bad it costs 8 times a lascannon, and it works two turns out of three (and on the third one, you suffer a wound as well). That Riptide costs like 2 Skyrays... think about that.

There's actualy enough points leftover in my list to take 1, maybe even 2 skyrays if you feel the need. But the point is, the riptide has the flexibility to deal with land raiders if needed. Some of the other units, including the missile-sides and skyrays, can't. Against LR's, you only have the bomb to fall back on. With riptides, who BTW are a threat to AV14 just by the simple fact that they are MC's, now you've got multiple units that can handle certain builds like LR-spam.

Teschio wrote:

jy2 wrote:As for hurting MSU transports, hey....this is a deathstar list. Targeting multiple units will always be a weakness of such builds. So what's new?

Really? You know what Target Locks are for, right? That unit can easily murder 3-4 vehicles a turn, more if they are light vehicles like rhinos: vs AV11, the drones, Farsight and one of Shadowsun's blasters kill a vehicle, the blaster suit kills another one, with Tank Hunter MP suits kill one vehicle each, the other blaster from Shadowsun and maybe a plasma suit another, and 2 plasma suits a sixth. With "kill" i mean also incapacitate, if i need to i can focus less vehicles and be sure to destroy them, at least 4 rhinos a turn. This list eats MSUs for breakfast.
Stop saying this is a deathstar: it has none of the weaknesses deathstars usually have: it is mobile, it is extremely resistant, and it can split fire efficiently. When you think about this list, forget everything you ever experienced about deathstars, because this list is unique.

Think again if you think S6 plasmas or S7 missiles will easily "murder" transports, even with Target Locks. The strength of Tau is to focus-fire to whittle down any unit, transports included. If you have to diversify your firepower, you are doing the exact opposite of that. Yeah, you may kill multiple vehicles if you're lucky, but more realistically, you'll just be taking 1-2 HP's off of various vehicles. And Tau does deal with multiple units better than other deathstars, but make no mistake, it is still a deathstar. The only difference is that other deathstars take on multiple units in the Assault phase whereas the Farsight-bomb takes on multiple units in the shooting phase.

themadlbb wrote:Alright, I think I see where you're getting at re: the riptides. I do wonder though, is it possible to make this list competitive without relying on the SM librarian? Quite frankly I think it's a fantastic pairing, but I don't want to be getting into arguments about GoI and whether or not the unit can JSJ every single game. Any thoughts here?

No it's not The mobility it provides is invaluable.

jy2 wrote:You do realize that the farseer will be in the bomb unit, right? Not so easy to kill him with potentially 2+ cover and Look-Out-Sirs. Besides, the sources for markerlights (i.e. pathfinders, markerdrones) can normally be killed much easier than the farseer unless you invest a considerable amount of points to take them en masse.

Inside the Bomb the Farseer definitely makes more sense. But i don't like to rely on random powers (except for Guide, which you will always have). And honestly, without GoI you end up suffering a lot some armies (like hordes, that will eventually catch up with you because you run out of space to flee from them, or any army that splits its forces, you won't be mobile enough to take care of them with the Bomb). Plus, your effectiveness on the first turn is severely limited (no hit from drones or FBs and single hits from plasmas)

Oh, and don't worry about LoS, that's what Sworn Protector is for

HBC riptides are better as AA support because 1) they're cheaper with skyfire+interceptor than missile-sides, 2) they can cover a wider range of the board because they're much more mobile than missile-sides and 3) they are more flexible overall, being able to handle anything from infantry to land raiders.

They are more mobile, they are cheaper, but they also shoot a lot less, and they rely on a 3+ roll to be very effective (and a psychic power devoted to them as well). If it were a 2+ roll we can talk about it, but too much randomness ends up hurting a list, imo. The less risks i have to take, the better i feel. As for their effectiveness versus LRs, an average of one glancing hit and one penetrating hit (with no bonus on the penetrating hit table) every TWO Riptides, both with something that allows the to reroll to hit, is not exactly optimal...

The game is about taking risks. If you want to play it safe all the time, you can forget about winning some games. With 10-15 wounds (depending on taking 2 or 3 riptides), you will survive failed Nova-charges. Also, 8 S6 shots is still respectable, especially with Prescience.

The game is not about taking risks, it's about taking calculated risks. If i need a LR to pop in one turn, i can't rely on Riptides to do it. I will need 4 TL-FBs with Tank Hunter. Even versus flyers, they are too random: assuming you pass your nova-charge test (and it's a big assumption...), you still have to roll 6s to penetrate them (i am talking about heavy flyers, AV12, expecially the much feared Heldrakes). Too random, not reliable enough if i have to base my victory on it.

I don't have my dex with me so I will take your word for it.

Not in the codex, it's in the BRB, nothing prevents you from using that movement if an IC without Jet Pack type joins a Jet Pack unit. Only, you won't move him, but every other model can.

What the farseer provides is a 4+/5+ Deny save to the unit for psychic defense. No, that is no where near the level of the old Runes, but it is an improvement over the 6+ Deny save.

With the Libby, i Deny the Witch on a 5+

ML do make them better....but so does psychic powers. You want saturation? Then you've got it. They are cheaper than broadsides, thus giving you more points to get skyrays if you want. They also don't compete against the skyrays in terms of FOC slots. Don't get me wrong. Broadsides are good. However, taking broadsides (assuming units of 3) actually take away from your target saturation just by the simple fact that they are a more costly unit. Thus, you take them, you have less points for other units.

Yes, but they are also much more powerful (and reliable) than Riptides... on a per-point basis, considering you rely on a 3+ roll AND a psychic power for maximum effectiveness, they saturate more than Riptides.

Yes, I don't need more firepower. I don't need mobility that can match the farsight bomb and can get away from assault units. I don't need more AA capability. I don't need a rugged unit that can't be 1-shotted by a lascannon or drop-podding meltas. I don't a unit that is flexible enough to handle all threats and not just infantry. I don't need a unit that is "expensive" at 200-pts, and yet would be wiser to take a unit that is less flexible and cost more than 250pts?!? Is there anything else the riptides bring that I don't need?

You need mobility, and you prefer a Farseer to a Librarian? What beats 24" + 2D6" movement each turn? What the list needs is saturation (and Broadsides are MUCH better at that), protection for troops on the backfield objectives (this is why they have EWOs, among other uses), and AA (a single Skyray is better at that than Riptides). Riptides can be good in Tau lists, but not in this one.

And if you cannot see the synergy in this list, then I seriously wonder about your tactical acumen. Sorry, don't mean to be rude, but your advice sounds like theoryhammer without practical experience insofar as riptides are concerned.

Oh no, i used them. A lot. I still think they are a bit overpriced for what they do, that can be done better by other units in the codex, but this is in a "regular" Tau list. In this one, they don't give you what you need. you know, not every unit considerd strong is actually good in every single list... Heldrakes are probably the best flyers out there, but in a in-your-face list, 18 Nurgle Spawns with a couple of ICs with them are just better... this doesn't mean Heldrakes are bad, any person can tell you what makes them strong, but they are not strong in that list.

There's actualy enough points leftover in my list to take 1, maybe even 2 skyrays if you feel the need. But the point is, the riptide has the flexibility to deal with land raiders if needed. Some of the other units, including the missile-sides and skyrays, can't. Against LR's, you only have the bomb to fall back on. With riptides, who BTW are a threat to AV14 just by the simple fact that they are MC's, now you've got multiple units that can handle certain builds like LR-spam.

Yes, i "only" have the Bomb for LRs. Don't you think it's enough? And BTW, being MCs is not enough to be a threat to LRs... with their crappy Attacks and WS, they can kill the vehicle, but its delicious filling of Termies will rape the Riptide in return...

Think again if you think S6 plasmas or S7 missiles will easily "murder" transports, even with Target Locks. The strength of Tau is to focus-fire to whittle down any unit, transports included. If you have to diversify your firepower, you are doing the exact opposite of that. Yeah, you may kill multiple vehicles if you're lucky, but more realistically, you'll just be taking 1-2 HP's off of various vehicles. And Tau does deal with multiple units better than other deathstars, but make no mistake, it is still a deathstar. The only difference is that other deathstars take on multiple units in the Assault phase whereas the Farsight-bomb takes on multiple units in the shooting phase.

When i say i can kill multiple vehicles, it's because i have done it... and you don't need to be very lucky to do it. Against an AV11 vehicle, a single MP suits with Tank Hunter has a good chance of destroying it, or at least immobilize it. Same goes for Plasma suits, 2 of them are 8 shots, 6 hits, on a 5+ it's an HP, and i reroll that dice too... it's an average of 3.333 HPs JUST with two suits (and this is WITHOUT rolling on the Penetrating Hit table, in which they have a +1 as well). the FB suits murders another one with a certain reliability. I have played this list long enough that i know when to focus and when to split fire, depending on what i need.
Please, can you tell me which other Deathstar has the same mobility, firepower, resistance and flexibility? Because i'm curious now...

Look up screamer star/council. Re rollable 2 plus invul means something like a 1000 wounds to kill a usual squad while that is up. It has 36inch range per turn, firepower is dependant on who you are facing, you can go for anti infantry (up to 15d6 of re rolling to hit str6 ap4) or anti tank (infernal gateway or bolt of change, both are d6+5 for str and ap1/ap2).

Flexibility in bundles really. They can ignore cover to kill any 4+ troops, they can misfortune marines if going anti infantry. They can even bring the hurt to MC's and anti air if needed.

Combat, they have 3 attacks each so dont care about mutlicharging, they have access to str5 ap2 attacks. n a normal charge a full squad will have 52 re rolling to hit attacks. It can also take on armour 14, so does something hounds cannot, that is take on av11 or more.

So mobility is better, firepower ok its psyhic and can only shoot one unit but with the deciated anti tank (bolt being beam is horrible against parking lots). Resistane is unreal, yes it can fail but they have the mobility to get out of harms way quite well and can rely on cover saves as well as the invul if failed grimoire or forewarning. Flexibilty is unreal, it can do everything needed.

Cost wise, the way I run it 675pts (plus fateweaver tax of 300pts). This really laughs at lists like yours and this is also a ETC prey list for Tau shooty armies