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This list did so well at a local tournament I played in yesterday that people were trying to get the TO to ban it from the next one. More than one comment along the lines of "impossible to beat" or "utterly broken" was muttered. I'm a very cordial and friendly player normally, but the attitude I was getting from the other competitive players at this tournament made me savor every last drop of nerd rage. 3 games vs Space Marines, Space Wolves, and Tau (all with lists that would be decent vs most, although they lacked the mobility or special shenanigans that could really bruise me) later and I took 1st and some sweet store credit.

Here's the list:
-Shadowsun
-Farsight

-Crisis Bodyguard 7x
--Crisis 3x (PR+PR+TL)
--Crisis (MP+CIB+TL)
--Crisis (MP+MP+TL)
--Crisis (FB+FB+TL)
--Crisis (SS+CC+PTE+VRT+PR+DC)
--11x Gun Drones

-Kroot 10x
-Kroot 10x
-Kroot 10x

-Hammerhead (Long Strike+RG+SMS+DP)

-Allies: Blood Angels
--Librarian (Jump Pack+Shield of Sanguinus+Blood Lance)
--Assault Squad (2x MG)
--Assault Squad (No Jump Packs+2x MG)
---Drop Pod

So this list is obviously based around the Puretide Council. They have stealth and shrouding, infiltrate, hit and run, swom protector, ignore cover, twin linked (shooting phase only), and tank hunter/monster hunter/stubborn from the PTE. With target locks, they can divide their fire perfectly to handle any situation in the most efficient manner possible. 14 rapid firing plasma shots, 4 fusion shots, 9 missiles, 22 pulse rifles. All of these combine to make a unit that hits like a truck and is tough as nails. With overwatch and Farsight, the Puretide Council is hard to assault as well. A scary unit, and one that plays a lot of psychological games on your opponent.

The kroot are cheap, mobile (with infiltrate and outflank) scoring that can lay down effective auxiliary fire when they need to. Long Strike has the really really high 46% chance of penning AV14 on any given shot with AP1, important considering multiple landraiders can be relatively effective against the Puretide Council.

The blood angels allies are for several reasons. First, it adds some tough, combat squadable troops with accurate, deep striking melta guns. Second, it adds some minor assault elements to threaten other shooting armies (like IG). Third, and most importantly, it adds the power Shield of Sanguinius to the list. Shield of Sanguinius gives any unit (friend or foe) a 5+ cover save during the opponent's shooting phase. With Stealth and Shrouded, this gives the Puretide Council a 2+ cover save even if they don't go first. This allows that big, expensive, ridiculously powerful unit to deploy in the face of virtually any alpha strike, in prime position to rapid fire on turn 1/2, just leaving a trail of missile pod/support suits behind to stay within 6'' of the librarian (who hides with the jump marines, who also provide counter assault potential). The only other way to obtain this is with an Ork Big Mek's KFF, I decided on Blood Angels because I felt they added greater utility to the army. I thought it was worth a try, and this tournament was going to be proof of concept.

Boy was this concept proven. The 2+ cover save let me play so aggressively, the unit was at 100% effectiveness every turn. The Drop Pod marines gave me a really good, flexible response on turn 1. The kroot did their job of holding objectives (helped because they are hardly worth shooting at, especially considering they just go to ground when threatened). Lemme know what you guys think!

I will assault your deathstar with my wraithknight.

And shoot the rest to death.

This is just an example.

Also BA is not battle brothers so I dont think you can use their rules.

 Marthike wrote:
I will assault your deathstar with my wraithknight.

And shoot the rest to death.

This is just an example.

Also BA is not battle brothers so I dont think you can use their rules.

you can if it says friend or foe.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 Marthike wrote:
I will assault your deathstar with my wraithknight.

And shoot the rest to death.

This is just an example.

Also BA is not battle brothers so I dont think you can use their rules.

you can if it says friend or foe.

IS this in the FAQ because it doesn't in the codex.

Also why 2+ its 5+ with +1 +1 so its a 3+, am i missing something? Do you mean go to ground?

Well your going to have problems with flying MC..especially nurgle, you don't have any marker lights. GT level your going to play against better list and not to mention better players. It a nice list, but it's average at best.

 mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:
Well your going to have problems with flying MC..especially nurgle, you don't have any marker lights. GT level your going to play against better list and not to mention better players. It a nice list, but it's average at best.

I was just about to mention flyers. Anyone who realise this is a deathstar list will deal with it like all other deathstar lists. Ignore your deathstar and go after the kroots, once your troops are gone then they can focuse your deathstar or just spread out and take all objectives.

I will assault your deathstar with my wraithknight.

And shoot the rest to death.

This is just an example.

Well, let's run the numbers. In one shooting phase, with monster hunter turned on, this unit will inflict 8.9 wounds on a Wraithknight. And then another 2.2 in the overwatch. And then another 1.6 in the combat. Then they will take 2.2 wounds in return, losing the combat but likely passing their leadership roll (or rolling at initiative 5 for sweeping advance in the worst case scenario). If, likely, they stay in combat, they will then hit and run, only failing on a 6. But yeah, Wraithknight is pretty decent vs this unit, forces quite a few rolls.

you can if it says friend or foe.

It says "any unit" in the codex and isn't mentioned in the FAQ, legal application.

Also why 2+ its 5+ with +1 +1 so its a 3+, am i missing something? Do you mean go to ground?

Stealth adds +1, shrouded adds +2. Thus, 5-1-2=2+

Well your going to have problems with flying MC..especially nurgle, you don't have any marker lights. GT level your going to play against better list and not to mention better players. It a nice list, but it's average at best.

I thought about AA in this list, but honestly the flyer scare is mostly overrated. Most flyers you can pretty safely ignore (Helldrakes being the exception). Armies that don't bring flyers come to the field at a good point advantage when you invest a lot into AA. Thus, I think the incidental AA (twin linked missile pods, auto hitting blood lance) will generally be sufficient. For FMC's, bringing them down with kroot (who can also form protective kroot loops) leaves them vulnerable to a LOT of monster hunting AP 1/2. Against toughness 6, they inflict 26.7 wounds, 16.6 of them making it through a 3+.

I was just about to mention flyers. Anyone who realise this is a deathstar list will deal with it like all other deathstar lists. Ignore your deathstar and go after the kroots, once your troops are gone then they can focuse your deathstar or just spread out and take all objectives.

The beauty of this deathstar, compared to others, is it's flexibility. Most deathstars you can feed a unit to, or draw to one side of the board, or ignore once it's outside of its transport. Not so here. With 3d6 assault move, it can't really be out maneuvered. Because it is ranged, it has a much larger threat area and cannot be really tied up. With target locks everything shoots at exactly what it needs to to be 100% effective. The kroot can outflank, so they usually start off the table. I'm normally 100% against Deathstars, but this one seems to break all the rules.

Good points though. You guys got any idea how I could improve this list? I'd like a rip tide for the added AA and , but I'm not sure what I'd take away for it.

well how many units can you kill? at most 1 unit per turn so your deathstar can kill 5 units, if I have tanks then you will take 1 turn to kill a tank then 1 turn to kill the unit inside and most competitive list spam MSU so in the end you would have barely killed enough to make a difference.

The current comeptitive army,
necron (wraith will most likely tie you down for the entire game, and flyer with troops inside which you can't kill unless you blow up the flyer, av13 so either 9" for melta or 1 per turn by your railgun)


eldar (serpent spam, 4+ cover and av 12, wraithknights nuff said)
Tau (Shooting 150 S 5 and lots more missle spam, or 125 missiles per turn)
Daemon (4 FMC, 1 MC, fast hounds)

Less competitive lists.
Chaos space marine (heldrake, nurgle spawn, nurgle marines OR spam of fearless cultists.)
Ravenwing (high mobility, you have to chase them down or they also have alot of shooting)
GK (dreadknights, stormraven, purifer spam)
Orks (spam of bodies so you dont have enough gun to kill them all)
Bugs (9x T6 bodies, 4 MC 2 FMC)

the most competitive lists will deal with your army easily, the less competitive lists will have some trouble but if they are not stupid and just focuses everthing on your deathstar then they should be fine.

Deathstars are best to be ignored or swarmed with tarpit unit.

Also I don't think all unit should be what you said, all unit most likely means all BA units since its a BA codex, but i guess this need to be debated, for me personally i wont allow you to use that rule, best ask the TO if he allows it then go ahead.

I feel any fast moving dedicated assult unit will destroy your deathstar or atleast tarpit them enough for them to not matter.

14 rapid firing plasma shots, 4 fusion shots, 9 missiles, 22 pulse rifles.is not very scary comming from 1000+ points

This is like the old draigo wing. good but nothing to scary, people dealt with draigo wing they will deal with this. also I forgot to mention guard (even more tanks and tons of large blasts and High S weapon spam, probably a worse version serpent spam.

Can we know what lists you faced in this tournaments?

well how many units can you kill? at most 1 unit per turn so your deathstar can kill 5 units, if I have tanks then you will take 1 turn to kill a tank then 1 turn to kill the unit inside and most competitive list spam MSU so in the end you would have barely killed enough to make a difference.

With target locks you can shoot each suit at a different unit if you want, so MSU wont work.

The current comeptitive army,
necron (wraith will most likely tie you down for the entire game, and flyer with troops inside which you can't kill unless you blow up the flyer, av13 so either 9" for melta or 1 per turn by your railgun)

Can't tie the unit up, it has hit and run and initiative 5. And the necron flyers don't have quantum shielding, only arm 11 and thus vulnerable to... everything. Plus they can't hurt anything while their troops are inside, so you can ignore them until you're down to killing scoring units.

eldar (serpent spam, 4+ cover and av 12, wraithknights nuff said)

Serpents are good for... what? They can help get a blade storm off, then the unit dies. And they are EXPENSIVE. Cover is ignored by the big unit. AV 12 is nothing when you have tank hunting missiles and fusion. I touched on wraithknights above, they aren't that big a problem.

Tau (Shooting 150 S 5 and lots more missle spam, or 125 missiles per turn)

Static tau can put out a lot of shots. But they are static, and have low LD, low BS, and low mobility. Any gunline tau will lose horribly against comparable IG armies. Either way, 2+ cover means they'd still have a hard time hurting anything, especially since less than half of the army is likely to be in range of anything at any given time.

Daemon (4 FMC, 1 MC, fast hounds)

FMC's are tough nuts, but as soon as they are grounded (not too hard to do with incidental fire) this unit can devastate them with monster hunter turned on. Detailed above.

Chaos space marine (heldrake, nurgle spawn, nurgle marines OR spam of fearless cultists.)

Helldrakes are good and can be annoying, need to use tank hunting twin linked missile pods/fusions and auto hitting blood lance to take em out. Other than that CSMs are very lackluster.

Ravenwing (high mobility, you have to chase them down or they also have alot of shooting)

Such low model count, and still not really fast enough to outrun this unit while still shooting, and not really scary at all in CC.

GK (dreadknights, stormraven, purifer spam)

Point efficient, but still marines. and still die to plasma. Storm ravens would be a good way to deliver dudes into combat, but I'd always get a turn to hurt them before they could assault me. And dreadknights? Not very good for the cost.

Orks (spam of bodies so you dont have enough gun to kill them all)

30 Orks per turn, plus whatever the kroot, blood angels, and hammerhead can kill. Spamming bodies lack the mobility to hurt me, nob bikers die to the higher quality weapons. Orks are really low down the chain of scary things for this list.

Bugs (9x T6 bodies, 4 MC 2 FMC)

Nids would be pretty easy for this list, monster hunter is a mean, mean thing and outside of the FMC's their mobility is pretty limited. FMC's are definitely still a bother, have to concentrate on them first.

Deathstars are best to be ignored or swarmed with tarpit unit.

CC deathstars can be tarpitted. This unit has hit and run and is a ranged unit. It isn't a "fire and forget" like most deathstars, which normally I agree with. It just seems like this unit doesn't behave like other deathstars, it operates in such a faster, more flexible way, doing damage the whole game with a ton of deployment options.

Also I don't think all unit should be what you said, all unit most likely means all BA units since its a BA codex, but i guess this need to be debated, for me personally i wont allow you to use that rule, best ask the TO if he allows it then go ahead.

I go with RAW, the Space Wolve version is more specifically friendly units so I can't use them by comparison. If a TO wants to mess with RAW, not much of a TO.

This is like the old draigo wing. good but nothing to scary, people dealt with draigo wing they will deal with this. also I forgot to mention guard (even more tanks and tons of large blasts and High S weapon spam, probably a worse version serpent spam.

This is similar to draigo wing, except much faster, can kill multiple units at a time, is mostly shooting, with a far large threat range. Actually, its mostly only like draigo wing in that it is hard to kill with shooting.

I know your thought processes here, deathstars are normally a dumb idea (even very powerful ones like draigo wing), but I really feel like the Puretide council transcends that normal line of though. It is just so much faster and more flexible, with such a threat range. I am concerned about the possibility of multiple FMCs, however. How do you think I could tweak this army to help mitigate that possibility?

To answer your question, no because you just don't have the points to do so. I theory craft also and do play tests some time but I am not 100% on rules. To deal with FMC is to ground them. You don't have the weight of fire of ground them consistently. You have so many points in your deathstar you won't have the points to do anything with the left over, I like the kroots but I don't like the hammerhead (rail gun tank, might got the name wrong) I think broadsides are better since, you have 1 tank and every anti tank weapon will be pointing at him. A bunch of broadside with 2+ might be better. They can also be armed with skyfire and interceptor.

I will point out a few thing after I read them and understand them more.

I want to talk about HnR, RAI and some things you might not knew because eldar serpents are not just transports and tau gunline is not low LD (they are LD 10)
To answer your question, no because you just don't have the points to do so. I theory craft also and do play tests some time but I am not 100% on rules. To deal with FMC is to ground them. You don't have the weight of fire of ground them consistently. You have so many points in your deathstar you won't have the points to do anything with the left over, I like the kroots but I don't like the hammerhead (rail gun tank, might got the name wrong) I think broadsides are better since, you have 1 tank and every anti tank weapon will be pointing at him. A bunch of broadside with 2+ might be better. They can also be armed with skyfire and interceptor.

I will point out a few thing after I read them and understand them more.

I want to talk about HnR, RAI and some things you might not knew because eldar serpents are not just transports and tau funkiness is not low LD (they are LD 10)

Your deathstar is very simmilar to a Delder+eldar deathstar with their 2+ cover and fast moving unit.

First lets talk about HnR, you can run but 18 wraiths and 1 Dlord will absolutely destroy your deathstar even in 1 round of combat, deathstar vs deathstar the necrons will win. targetlock means you can shoot at 2 units but with your firepower i am not sure you can grantee to kill what your shooting at. Necron scythe can shoot you. What do you mean they can't hurt anything while their troops are inside and all the scoring units are inside scythes so you are forced to shoot them if you want to kill the troops.

The new serpent spam is so much better than before they have 4 TL S6 shots at 36", 3 TL S6 ap2 at 24", TL D6+1 S7 ignore cover at 72". All that on a av12 tank with 4+ cover. Its nothing to be laugh at.

Tau gunline is 30" range. you have to stay outside of 15" or like terminator 2+ still die to massed fire.

This is my Chaos army:

HQ - Chaos Lord - bike - MON - Dark glory - Mace 160 pts
TR - Plague marine 2x melta - Rhino 175 pts
TR - Plague marine 2x melta - Rhino 175 pts
TR - Plague marine 2x melta - Rhino 175 pts
TR - 20x Cultists 2x heavy stubber 100 pts
FA - Heldrake baleflamer 170 pts
FA - Heldrake baleflamer 170 pts
FA - 5x Spawn MON 180 pts
HS - 5x Havocs 4 x autocannons 115 pts
HS - 5x Havocs 4 x autocannons 115 pts
HS - 5x Havocs 4 x autocannons 115 pts
FT - Agies defense line - Quad gun 100 pts

1750 pts

How do you think you can do to beat this army?

I think you might be overestimating a few of these things.

tau gunline is not low LD (they are LD 10)

Tau gunlines are low LD once the ethereal is dead (even just a little bit of bad positioning, like putting 4 FW on a side of him, lets him be picked off by a single 8 missile volley on average) or if they aren't centralized around a single point (even easier to avoid).

Tau gunline is 30" range. you have to stay outside of 15" or like terminator 2+ still die to massed fire.

50 S5AP5 shots at BS 3 do... 2.7 wounds to the council. A goodly dent in the drones (or, more likely, the commanders) to be sure.

The new serpent spam is so much better than before they have 4 TL S6 shots at 36", 3 TL S6 ap2 at 24", TL D6+1 S7 ignore cover at 72". All that on a av12 tank with 4+ cover. Its nothing to be laugh at.

I am aware they have a few powerful weapons, but for 145 pts they only get to shoot one of those weapons/turn when moving 12. And if they shoot the D6+1 one they lose their penetrating hit downgrade. On average, just the plasma (at 24'') and missiles will kill 1.5 of them a turn with hull points alone, and their shooting will inflict, if they stay still and shoot every weapon at full BS, they will inflict... 1.35 wounds on this unit. Really not that impressive for the cost.

Your deathstar is very simmilar to a Delder+eldar deathstar with their 2+ cover and fast moving unit.

That is where the similarity ends, though. That unit is predominantly CC, making their average threat range 19''. This unit has a much greater threat range, and can engage many more targets a game (starting turn 1). Like I said, it doesn't follow the same rules of engagement as traditional deathstars and that is what sets it apart and makes it viable at all.

Now, about your army, it looks quite good. I'm not sure if I could beat it at all, it would depend a lot of mission and deployment, and first turn would play a major role as well. Looks very competitive. That said, I actually really like playing against lists like this, a lot of points spent on things that simply aren't that useful against my army. Lets look at some numbers

Turn 1: Rhino popping time. Between Longstrike and the Council's 24''+ weaponry, with tank hunters up, I inflict 10.2 hull points, taking out all of the rhinos VERY reliably. So there are all your troops, stranded (in your deployment zone if I go first or steal). Depending on how well Longstrike shoots (he has ~55% chance of just killing or immobilizing one per turn), I might just shoot the missiles, 1 at each rhino (averaging 2.7 hull points each), and shoot the rest at something else. I assume you deploy the Lord with the Spawn somewhere near the middle, so they can react well. They will likely wait until another turn.

Turn 2: Your mini-deathstar (340 pts or 1/3 the price of mine) is now the major issue, barring using a speed bump unit or very good jump pack rolls, they will likely be in reasonable charge range next turn. This also means they are within rapid fire range. At this range, the unit will inflict 17.8 wounds on the unit, assuming they all get thrown on chaos spawn. This clears them out, leaving the lord by himself. Assuming he charges, overwatch will do 2.37 wounds. This will be reduced to 1.7 if you kill every drone with your shooting before hand (need some serious luck for that). In combat, assuming he doesn't roll that hateful 1, he will have on average 3+4+1+1=9 attacks, hit on 3's, wounding on 2's, with armor saves (only AP 4), he will do 1.66 wounds. In return he will take (again, assuming all drones are dead at this point) on average only a single wound. With stubborn up (no more tanks to shoot this turn) I lose but stand, hit and run on a 5-, and am free to shoot again during my turn.

Turn 3: Likely that both Helldrakes are on the field, and have done damage. The unit is hurting by now, especially if the rest of the army hasn't been able to make a big dent in your havocs (who all together will be inflicting 2.2 wounds per turn on the squad if they shoot at them). The trick against Helldrakes is to jump right next to their base. Then they can't shoot you next turn, since they have to move 18'' in one direction so if you can get everything in 6'' of the model it literally cannot hit anything the next turn no matter where it turns. Also you are guaranteed rear arc the next turn, where just the missiles will kill it only on average. Two makes this more difficult, just handle one at a time.

Past that, the game is probably chaos. How close are the plague marines? How well has the scatter from my hammerhead been to kill cultists? How well have outflanking kroot and drop pods marines done against the havocs? How many assault marines are still alive? And you'd have another 100 pts to spend, so even with a few elements of your army neutralized you'd have a bit more somewhere. From this point I think you'll agree that it looks like anyone's game with the overall luck of the game being a big factor (as it always is between competitive armies). But regardless, do these numbers show you why I think this list might just be up there in the power ranks?

As to replacing longstrike (you are right, he is inside of a hammerhead) with broadsides.... well, anti tank weapons are pretty much just as point effective when shot at suits or broadsides as they are when shot at him (he has a 4+ cover when he moves) and his S10 AP1 tank hunter is amazingly effective against heavy armor, the equivalent of about 6.5 space marine wielded lascannons when it comes to destroying AV14 each turn. He and the drop pod melta guns do a lot to solve the landraider or leman russ problem. Broadsides would be better vs flyers, but man, at LD 8 and 85 pts a pop for TL BS 3, S7/8 they just aren't all that effective at actually hurting things.

I will definitely be thinking about what I can do to be better against FMCs and the most dangerous flyers, though. I really appreciate the criticism, this little exercise made me think a LOT about what I'd do in these circumstances.

It is a deathstar list, but a shooty, deepstriking deathstar and therefore far more flexible than ordinary foot slogging CC deathstars.

I can see some potential problems.

1) An aimed shot at the puretide suit (Vindicare sniper etc) could deprive your deathstar of all the goodies - twinlink, ignore cover, hit and run and Puretide. I would at least put the puretide chip on some other suit to get some redundancy. But that is the weakness of the whole concept.

2) Enemies with template weapons that ignore cover. IG could do a lot of damage by Helldogs (the heavy flamer template fast attack vehicle) and nullify your BA allies psykic powers.

3) Psykers. An IG battle psyker squad could lower your leadership, forcing a retreat.

4) Early Warning Override - I believe more armies will get similar abilities. But unless you play against a Riptide/Missilside-heavy Tau list that is a problem for the future. On the other hand, an AP2 pie plate is not what you want to meet first turn.

On the whole a good list. Have you thought of using the Airburst against hordes?

1) Yeah, you need to make sure he's always far back that he can't be sniped. Putting the PEN on someone else is a possibility, although it makes explaining who is who a little bit harder. I'll have to think about it a bit more.

2) Hell dogs could take out drones, but I could also take the saves on farsight/shadowsun, who always roll at the very front since they auto pass Look Out Sir rolls when they are with the bodyguard. And if it gets within 12'', something has already gone terribly wrong lol. Definitely an element to think about, Collosus too, AP 3 and barrage targeting rules make it even scarier.

3) Battle Psykers are terrifying against this the same way they were terrifying against Nob Bikers. The difference is this unit is ranged, so you can keep your distance from them without being zoned out of your threat range.

4) EWO works against deepstriking... good thing this unit infiltrates instead! Deepstriking takes away at least 1 precious turn of shooting, this list just doesn't work if you have to deep strike.

I think though you guys....the point he's making is this: His list has answers to all of your "theorized lists" that people would not necessarily take to a tournament or a competitive setting where they should be taking TAC lists.

His list is a tough nut to crack, I think he's right. But it is built to table. If you can outlast his rediculous amount of firepower and kill of his crappy other units? He's done. You can likely get first blood if you take out his weak kroot units with Biovores (for instance because I play Nids primarily) You also take out a troop unit. Bottom line, if this list was beaten down to the deathstar, I think most armies could challenge it.

Barring everything else? Tough list....

Yeah, this list definitely has a bunch of eggs in that basket. A lot of the strategy of it comes from how to keep your scoring units alive and away from danger. I always keep the kroot in reserve, for instance, either outflanking or normal reserves depending on the positioning of objectives. The blood angels are also scoring units, potentially 4 extra when combat squaded, that are a little tougher to kill.

And it doesn't have really SOLID answers vs multiple Helldrakes or FMCs, requires careful positioning and a few good rolls to work against them.

Thanks though, I'm glad you like it!

I think there is one problem with your list as written. Your use of Infiltrate granted to the bodyguard via Shadowsun. The bodyguard squad is a separate unit in its own right. An IC specifically cannot join a unit of infiltrators. Joining Farsight and Shadowsun is in violation of this rule as Farsight cannot be granted infiltrate from Shadowsun. You can argue this, but see below for a second reason doing such is not rules legal.

Also, Farsight cannot be deployed with the bodyguard and Shadowsun. ICs join units when deployed in coherency with them, not before. Therefore the bodyguard is deployed, then IC's are deployed in coherency. The bodyguard unit would not be granted Infiltrate until Shadowsun joins them, and is therefore deployed and cannot benefit from Infiltrate. Either way, no Infiltrating Shadowsun Farsight Bodyguard unit.

You will either have to deepstrike them, or deploy as normal for this army to work RAW. There exists no FAQ to contend this.

That being said, the Farsight bomb is nasty and effective.

Thanks for the comment, I've hashed this out and seen this hashed out several times. It is a very technical argument that plays on a lot of interpretations of grammar (this thread in particular sets the standard for the back and forth on the issue: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?375194-IC-s-with-Infiltrate-and-attaching-them-to-units-without-the-special-rule). For instance, the word "with" and the sequence it implies throws a whole lot of wrenches into the mix. However, GW has addressed this in an FAQ exactly once, and since FAQs (even of other codices) trump both the rule book and codex, I've always gone by that.

Very specifically, the Codex: Space Marine FAQ talks about how Shrike can join a unit before deployment and grant them infiltrate. This counters the wording in the rule book, and (similar to the ruling that rage doesn't activate with counter attack for Blood Claws applies to Nid units with rage and counter attack as well) thus subverts the writing in the book for all codices.

Good point to bring up, however, and one that will inevitably be brought up every time you attempt to use a character to grant infiltrate to a unit (something that is pretty clearly RAI based on the rule book wording). I bring a copy of the C:SM FAQ to every tournament just in case it comes up.

Iron-Fist wrote:
Thanks for the comment, I've hashed this out and seen this hashed out several times. It is a very technical argument that plays on a lot of interpretations of grammar (this thread in particular sets the standard for the back and forth on the issue: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?375194-IC-s-with-Infiltrate-and-attaching-them-to-units-without-the-special-rule). For instance, the word "with" and the sequence it implies throws a whole lot of wrenches into the mix. However, GW has addressed this in an FAQ exactly once, and since FAQs (even of other codices) trump both the rule book and codex, I've always gone by that.

Very specifically, the Codex: Space Marine FAQ talks about how Shrike can join a unit before deployment and grant them infiltrate. This counters the wording in the rule book, and (similar to the ruling that rage doesn't activate with counter attack for Blood Claws applies to Nid units with rage and counter attack as well) thus subverts the writing in the book for all codices.

Good point to bring up, however, and one that will inevitably be brought up every time you attempt to use a character to grant infiltrate to a unit (something that is pretty clearly RAI based on the rule book wording). I bring a copy of the C:SM FAQ to every tournament just in case it comes up.

That being so, Shadowsun may be able to grant infiltrate to the unit and deploy with them as infiltrators, but that still does not allow Farsight to gain the Infiltrate special rule in turn as he would be gaining Infiltrate from the unit. I would still throw this to a TO on both counts at first opportunity. The rules clearly state and appear to be intended to prevent such an occurrence.

"An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment."

Serpent moving 12" can shoot 2 weapons.

For the drones when you allocate wounds to them they use their armour save or you take the save for the commander then allocate to them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another thing to add is if someone can kill your libby then your 2+ cover will be gone because without a cover save to begin with you can't buff it

Yeah, that is an order of events problem that also needs to be solved. The idea being Farsight joins the unit before they are infiltrators, then is given the infiltrator rule afterwards.

I'd prefer just a straight FAQ, but I'd be willing to give that point to a TO if it ever came up.

This is just a farsight bomb, if you want to know the true power of the tau ready the ultimate stupid post and if you don't believe it is actually ultimate stupid I suggest playing it.

Come again?

Iron-Fist wrote:
Yeah, that is an order of events problem that also needs to be solved. The idea being Farsight joins the unit before they are infiltrators, then is given the infiltrator rule afterwards.

I'd prefer just a straight FAQ, but I'd be willing to give that point to a TO if it ever came up.

RAW and RAI are very clear. An IC without Infiltrate cannot join an Infiltrating squad. You are attempting to justify this by adding an order of operations where none exists and banking on an FAQ written for another codex, then applying it to a imaginative order of events to skirt a clear cut rule. To do so IMO is in very poor taste and strictly speaking against the rules. RAW is very clear, Farsight cannot join a unit of Infiltrators and I will go as far as to say that RAW it is against the rules to even deploy Farside and Shadowsun in the same unit making the Farsight Bomb illegal RAW unless the unit is deployed via deepstrike, and then it is a semantics argument which leans in favor of disallowing Farsight and Shadowsun in the same unit.

Do you really need to make the ridiculously powerful Farsight Bomb more powerful and versatile?

Iron-fist I believe you haven't play against an all nurgle MC and fate weaver list....how do you handle a 2+ cover save with no marker light. Fate weaver at 2+ save with rerolls of 1. Plus if some of my MC gets Iron Arm....I don't see this list winning any GT...maybe local tournaments. Plus blood lance can't hit FMC

 mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:
Iron-fist I believe you haven't play against an all nurgle MC and fate weaver list....how do you handle a 2+ cover save with no marker light. Fate weaver at 2+ save with rerolls of 1. Plus if some of my MC gets Iron Arm....I don't see this list winning any GT...maybe local tournaments. Plus blood lance can't hit FMC

You do know farsight bomb ignores cover saves?

But yeah, Farsight bomb tends to work better on smaller scale games where enemy cant answer to the firepower and versatility of that unit.

Well there's some rules issues here:

The bomb CAN NOT infiltrate. Shadowsun has infiltrate but there is no way to join her to the squad for them to infiltrate and if you could Farsight couldn't join the unit...

As for the list:

Farsight bomb us near impossible for many people to deal with. Personally I'd run full stones and more plasma over missiles in the list.

Longstrike sucks at dealing with AV14 less than 25% chance to kill if they have cover it just gets worse for him. Let the bomb deal with AV14 as it can with twin linked fusion.

The rest of your list is poor. The BA allies font cover any of the weaknesses of the Bomb. Whilst the total lack of AA will cost you against your worst match ups (death&despair squads, helldrakes).

The strength of the bomb has won you the tournament against better players the weakness of the rest of the list will cost you.

Skyrays and Missilesides are the best support to the bomb.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Well there's some rules issues here:

The bomb CAN NOT infiltrate. Shadowsun has infiltrate but there is no way to join her to the squad for them to infiltrate and if you could Farsight couldn't join the unit...

Do You have page number to back Your argument up with? I only found text saying IC wont benefit from unit's special rules, so Farsight cant infiltrate with unit but Shadowsun definitely can as the rules state unit benefits from IC's special rules.

The problem with deepstriking Shadowsun and Farsight is that they enter reserves as infiltrators. You do not have to declare that they are in reserves until after both your and your opponent's normal deployment. Farsight cannot be reserved in a unit of infiltrators as he would not be able to be reserved with them unless he also was being granted the Infiltrate special rule and being deployed after normal deployment as well. No choice about deploying and declaring infiltrators last after normal deployment sans Farsight.

 Shan1 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Well there's some rules issues here:

The bomb CAN NOT infiltrate. Shadowsun has infiltrate but there is no way to join her to the squad for them to infiltrate and if you could Farsight couldn't join the unit...

Do You have page number to back Your argument up with? I only found text saying IC wont benefit from unit's special rules, so Farsight cant infiltrate with unit but Shadowsun definitely can as the rules state unit benefits from IC's special rules.

Page 39 2nd paragraph. Note how you attach to unit during deployment. You must deploy within 2" of them thus they must already be deployed. If they are infiltrating to you can't hold off Far sights deployment yo deploy with them, if Shadowsun wants to give them infiltrate they have to already be deployed and thus are not eligible to be held back for infiltrate (which requires you to not be deployed).

It is a deathstar that is ok, but against ignore cover they still die easy enough, against misfortune that reduces their saves as well. My list laughs at farsight bombs though, just like one or two lists laugh at mine, it is situationly good.