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Ummm...no its not. Believe me I just took out a squad of 30 boyz and measured, assuming your squad is about 12" away from mine to ensure that I didn't charge you the last turn, it would take 24" just to get on the other side of the squad and then another 2d6 move which on avg. would be an extra 7". So you would only be 7" away from them by the end of your movement and btw that was measuring from the guy in your squad who would be closest to them at the start of your movement, so realistically your squad wouldn't be able to jump over them at all because the majority of your squad would land on top of mine at the end of your movement.

Teschio wrote:

I'm not sure the farsight list is over powered compared to a lot of things, especially considering you run it with a 4+ cover save and no infiltrate. So you deploy in cover and just take the dangerous terrain tests?

Sure i do (or i move just outside a terrain and JSJ into it afterwards, if range is an issue, but if possible i tend to not rely on those 2D6 to be safe). I lose one or two drones, but my unit will have a 2+ cover save. 24" movement is enough to hop from terrain to terrain. I usually have to do it for the first 2 turns though, after that anything that can threaten me is gone.

How is it you manage to only ever lose drones to DT tests? With 10 non-drone models and a 1/18 chance to take a wound from DT (1/6 Fail * 1/3 Fail Armor Save), it seems like your suits should sometimes be failing those as well. Admittedly it's not a huge issue, but it could certainly leave you out to dry with some poor luck.

flaming tadpole wrote: Ummm...no its not. Believe me I just took out a squad of 30 boyz and measured, assuming your squad is about 12" away from mine to ensure that I didn't charge you the last turn, it would take 24" just to get on the other side of the squad and then another 2d6 move which on avg. would be an extra 7". So you would only be 7" away from them by the end of your movement and btw that was measuring from the guy in your squad who would be closest to them at the start of your movement, so realistically your squad wouldn't be able to jump over them at all because the majority of your squad would land on top of mine at the end of your movement.

The 12" starting distance is the problem... if you are at 12" from me, i don't even try to run, i shoot you. Removing the first models will ensure you won't be able to assault me, since you seem to keep your models at almost maximum coherency. I don't even need to shoot with every weapon there, the drones should be more than enough. You need to get closer if you want to have a chance to assault me, but if you do, i jump on the other side.

TehCheator wrote:How is it you manage to only ever lose drones to DT tests? With 10 non-drone models and a 1/18 chance to take a wound from DT (1/6 Fail * 1/3 Fail Armor Save), it seems like your suits should sometimes be failing those as well. Admittedly it's not a huge issue, but it could certainly leave you out to dry with some poor luck.

Yes, sometimes i take a wound on suits as well (i don't count ICs, because they have 3 or 4 wounds and there is no other way to allocate wounds to them, so i will gladly fail a test with an IC than with a suit). But the important suit is just one, and that suit dies every 36 Terrain tests on average. I can live with that

Teschio wrote:
Yes, sometimes i take a wound on suits as well (i don't count ICs, because they have 3 or 4 wounds and there is no other way to allocate wounds to them, so i will gladly fail a test with an IC than with a suit). But the important suit is just one, and that suit dies every 36 Terrain tests on average. I can live with that

Yeah, I figured that was the case, just wanted to be sure.

My only other concern with a list like this (that I actually like and kinda want to try, just for the fun factor) is character MCs. I probably think about this a lot because my friend plays a flying circus Daemons list, but if you're up against a character MC (or any character with the ability to be S10), one precision strike melee attack can ruin your whole plan by removing the HnR suit and keeping you locked in combat until the squad is gone.

I suppose you could challenge, but you really don't want to lose Farsight or Shadowsun either, and both have the potential to be readily doubled out by MCs going Smash.

TehCheator wrote:
My only other concern with a list like this (that I actually like and kinda want to try, just for the fun factor) is character MCs. I probably think about this a lot because my friend plays a flying circus Daemons list, but if you're up against a character MC (or any character with the ability to be S10), one precision strike melee attack can ruin your whole plan by removing the HnR suit and keeping you locked in combat until the squad is gone.

I suppose you could challenge, but you really don't want to lose Farsight or Shadowsun either, and both have the potential to be readily doubled out by MCs going Smash.

Against FMCs, i will try to kill one each turn with the Bomb, while moving far away from the others so i won't get assaulted (to assault, they need to be Gliding, that's a 12"+2D6" assault distance). Skyrays do wonders against them even when swooping, 12 BS4 (most likely BS5 or higher, actually, thanks to networked MLs), S8 AP3 missiles HURT. If those FMC don't have 3+ AS, missilesides can do some real damage as well (at least forcing a Grounding test). Since that list has very few models, i can easily sacrifice my troops to shoot (again forcing Grounding tests, or even as meat shield, directly in front of the unit so you can't assault it. I just have to survive a few turns after all, by turn 3 you shouldn't have any more FMCs (they cost a lot, at 1750 points you won't have so many), and if the bomb is still alive i have plenty of time to win by wipe-out. Unless i absolutely need GoI to avoid being assaulted, my Librarian will cast Null Zone as well (i never said it, but it's obviously his second power). Even if you get to assault me, unless it's with two or more FMCs in the same turn, i am not worried: Overwatch can do A LOT of damage, and worst case scenario i will challenge with Farsight (that has 4+ IS, and can reroll it in challenges thanks to Moral Support). Farsight is not that important versus that army anyway.
As a last note, i remind you that you can disengage with GoI as well, you don't need H&R...

Teschio just remember that if you get in combat with a FMC and lose they have a really good chance to sweep you off the board and then there goes your 1000 point deathstar even if you challenge.

-Fire-

The Engram chip can give you Stubborn which significantly reduces the chances of a failed test. But yes if you fail a test against for instance a Daemon Prince you are almost auto caught....

iGuy91 wrote:x2 Necron death and despair squads would annihilate that deathstar in a shooting phase for a fraction of the points with that lovely ap1 flamer wounding on 2's


Yes, if i am an idiot. That is, if i get out of my deployment zone against them. I will just wait until they enter from Reserve, they won't be in range with the flamers to hit my unit, and the next turn i will murder them. Problem solved. Most people that think that a certain unit counters this list heavily don't realize they have an opponent with a brain in front of them, which can often counter those units effectively. Same goes with MLs + Riptides, easy to counter if you use your head a little, but they annihilate you if you don't. As i said before, this list needs a little thinking: advancing against D&D squads is one of those mistakes that lose you the game.

Well, standard delivery for them is in a night scythe. So you stay back against my army, and I chip away at you at range until they come in, and drop in the right spots, or you're out of range to do anything of consequence.

I think this unit is overrated, and I mean no disrespect to you as a player, or your tactics, you clearly threw a monkey wrench in some tournament lists, and thats great, but I don't believe its as devastating as people lead you to believe.

Teschio wrote:
Against FMCs, i will try to kill one each turn with the Bomb, while moving far away from the others so i won't get assaulted (to assault, they need to be Gliding, that's a 12"+2D6" assault distance). Skyrays do wonders against them even when swooping, 12 BS4 (most likely BS5 or higher, actually, thanks to networked MLs), S8 AP3 missiles HURT. If those FMC don't have 3+ AS, missilesides can do some real damage as well (at least forcing a Grounding test). Since that list has very few models, i can easily sacrifice my troops to shoot (again forcing Grounding tests, or even as meat shield, directly in front of the unit so you can't assault it. I just have to survive a few turns after all, by turn 3 you shouldn't have any more FMCs (they cost a lot, at 1750 points you won't have so many), and if the bomb is still alive i have plenty of time to win by wipe-out. Unless i absolutely need GoI to avoid being assaulted, my Librarian will cast Null Zone as well (i never said it, but it's obviously his second power). Even if you get to assault me, unless it's with two or more FMCs in the same turn, i am not worried: Overwatch can do A LOT of damage, and worst case scenario i will challenge with Farsight (that has 4+ IS, and can reroll it in challenges thanks to Moral Support). Farsight is not that important versus that army anyway.
As a last note, i remind you that you can disengage with GoI as well, you don't need H&R...

Ah, yes, I forgot about being able to disengage with GoI too, that certainly helps. Against the list my buddy runs, it's still somewhat tricky though. 3+ AS with Reroll 1's and often FNP / IWND on top of that make it hard for high AP weapons to do anything. The plasma / fusion definitely will do a lot, but even with rerolls to hit it's no guarantee you'll get that many hits to stick. Fateweaver makes it a pain in the ass to get them to actually fail a grounding test.

Skyrays do seem amazing against them, force them to use their invul save and Skyfire is pretty good. I might have to try this out against him tonight, just to see how it goes.

FirePainter wrote:Teschio just remember that if you get in combat with a FMC and lose they have a really good chance to sweep you off the board and then there goes your 1000 point deathstar even if you challenge.

-Fire-

The Librarian gives me ADSKNF....

Teschio wrote:

jy2 wrote:You do realize that the farseer will be in the bomb unit, right? Not so easy to kill him with potentially 2+ cover and Look-Out-Sirs. Besides, the sources for markerlights (i.e. pathfinders, markerdrones) can normally be killed much easier than the farseer unless you invest a considerable amount of points to take them en masse.

Inside the Bomb the Farseer definitely makes more sense. But i don't like to rely on random powers (except for Guide, which you will always have). And honestly, without GoI you end up suffering a lot some armies (like hordes, that will eventually catch up with you because you run out of space to flee from them, or any army that splits its forces, you won't be mobile enough to take care of them with the Bomb). Plus, your effectiveness on the first turn is severely limited (no hit from drones or FBs and single hits from plasmas)

Powers aren't really random. Farseer is actually there to buff the other units like the riptides, since the bomb is already twin-linked and ignores cover from the commander. The farseer has got a number of potential powers that are really useful, depending on the situation and type of armies you face. Not counting the Primaris (Guide, Prescience), any number of these powers can be extremely useful - Doom, Fortune, Misfortune, Terrify, Puppet Master, Foreboding, Hallucination, Mental Fortitude, Death Mission (Haha , )

Now I'm not saying that a Space Marine GoI librarian isn't good. He is, and your list is definitely viable (as long as the TO's rule in favor of your intepretation for how GoI works). What I'm saying is eldar is definitely just as good an ally.

Teschio wrote:

HBC riptides are better as AA support because 1) they're cheaper with skyfire+interceptor than missile-sides, 2) they can cover a wider range of the board because they're much more mobile than missile-sides and 3) they are more flexible overall, being able to handle anything from infantry to land raiders.

They are more mobile, they are cheaper, but they also shoot a lot less, and they rely on a 3+ roll to be very effective (and a psychic power devoted to them as well). If it were a 2+ roll we can talk about it, but too much randomness ends up hurting a list, imo. The less risks i have to take, the better i feel. As for their effectiveness versus LRs, an average of one glancing hit and one penetrating hit (with no bonus on the penetrating hit table) every TWO Riptides, both with something that allows the to reroll to hit, is not exactly optimal....

I guess the 3+ is not a big deal to me, but then again, I'm a daemon player. I'm used to a lot more randomness than this.

Psychic powers are meant for them. Who else is the farseer going to cast Guide/Prescience on? His own unit, the bomb, doesn't need it. The trade off for the riptides vs the broadsides is flexibility. Yes, the broadsides will outshoot them vs infantry and light vehicles. However, the riptides are much more mobile (i.e. can get away from assault units), will outshoot broadsides against TEQ's and heavy vehicles (assuming Nova goes off), have better AA capability due to skyfire+interceptor (+Prescience) and are more durable overall.....and all at a cheaper cost. I guess we will never really see eye-to-eye on this. Some are just fans of riptides while others are of missile-sides.

Teschio wrote:

The game is about taking risks. If you want to play it safe all the time, you can forget about winning some games. With 10-15 wounds (depending on taking 2 or 3 riptides), you will survive failed Nova-charges. Also, 8 S6 shots is still respectable, especially with Prescience.

The game is not about taking risks, it's about taking calculated risks. If i need a LR to pop in one turn, i can't rely on Riptides to do it. I will need 4 TL-FBs with Tank Hunter. Even versus flyers, they are too random: assuming you pass your nova-charge test (and it's a big assumption...), you still have to roll 6s to penetrate them (i am talking about heavy flyers, AV12, expecially the much feared Heldrakes). Too random, not reliable enough if i have to base my victory on it.

I just don't see the calculated risk here. You also can't rely on missile-sides or skyrays to pop a raider as well. So what? At least with riptides, you have another option other than the bomb to pop AV14, whereas with some of the other units, you don't even have that option. That is what the riptide bring to the list - flexibility.

I've ran a triple-heldrake list against a triple-riptide list before. My opponent had no problems taking down my heldrakes with his riptides. Over the course of the game, he took down 2 and weapon-destroyed the last one....and this was with average rolling, a farseer ally in his list and average failed Nova-charges.

Teschio wrote:

ML do make them better....but so does psychic powers. You want saturation? Then you've got it. They are cheaper than broadsides, thus giving you more points to get skyrays if you want. They also don't compete against the skyrays in terms of FOC slots. Don't get me wrong. Broadsides are good. However, taking broadsides (assuming units of 3) actually take away from your target saturation just by the simple fact that they are a more costly unit. Thus, you take them, you have less points for other units.

Yes, but they are also much more powerful (and reliable) than Riptides... on a per-point basis, considering you rely on a 3+ roll AND a psychic power for maximum effectiveness, they saturate more than Riptides.

Yes, they shoot better than riptides. However, they are also much more susceptible to fast assault armies and insta-killing firepower. There's your trade-off there. BTW, I think we have different intepretations of target saturation. My intepretation is multiple threats, all of about relatively equal priority. The broadsides are the opposite of target saturation, as they are a high-priority target and due to their costs, will make for less targets in the army.

Teschio wrote:

Yes, I don't need more firepower. I don't need mobility that can match the farsight bomb and can get away from assault units. I don't need more AA capability. I don't need a rugged unit that can't be 1-shotted by a lascannon or drop-podding meltas. I don't a unit that is flexible enough to handle all threats and not just infantry. I don't need a unit that is "expensive" at 200-pts, and yet would be wiser to take a unit that is less flexible and cost more than 250pts?!? Is there anything else the riptides bring that I don't need?

You need mobility, and you prefer a Farseer to a Librarian? What beats 24" + 2D6" movement each turn? What the list needs is saturation (and Broadsides are MUCH better at that), protection for troops on the backfield objectives (this is why they have EWOs, among other uses), and AA (a single Skyray is better at that than Riptides). Riptides can be good in Tau lists, but not in this one.

My comment about mobility was with regards to the riptides, not the farsight bomb. The librarian definitely gives the bomb better mobility, I will give you that. As for your definition of saturation, I think we are talking about apples and oranges here.

As for riptides not being good in this one, I just simply disagree. IMO, riptides complement the farsight bomb very well.

Teschio wrote:

And if you cannot see the synergy in this list, then I seriously wonder about your tactical acumen. Sorry, don't mean to be rude, but your advice sounds like theoryhammer without practical experience insofar as riptides are concerned.

Oh no, i used them. A lot. I still think they are a bit overpriced for what they do, that can be done better by other units in the codex, but this is in a "regular" Tau list. In this one, they don't give you what you need. you know, not every unit considerd strong is actually good in every single list... Heldrakes are probably the best flyers out there, but in a in-your-face list, 18 Nurgle Spawns with a couple of ICs with them are just better... this doesn't mean Heldrakes are bad, any person can tell you what makes them strong, but they are not strong in that list.

It's probably harder for you to see them doing as well since you run SM allies. But try running eldar allies + riptides and you will see that they don't really need Markerlights to be effective. Yes, markerlights help (and not just the riptides but the entire army), but riptides IMO are good enough to complement almost any Tau army list due to their flexibility. The farsight bomb is no exception. As a matter of fact, I like them more with the farsight bomb because now you can build a totally mobile army with no static units.

Teschio wrote:

There's actualy enough points leftover in my list to take 1, maybe even 2 skyrays if you feel the need. But the point is, the riptide has the flexibility to deal with land raiders if needed. Some of the other units, including the missile-sides and skyrays, can't. Against LR's, you only have the bomb to fall back on. With riptides, who BTW are a threat to AV14 just by the simple fact that they are MC's, now you've got multiple units that can handle certain builds like LR-spam.

Yes, i "only" have the Bomb for LRs. Don't you think it's enough? And BTW, being MCs is not enough to be a threat to LRs... with their crappy Attacks and WS, they can kill the vehicle, but its delicious filling of Termies will rape the Riptide in return...

I actually have no problems with this. If you can kill the LR with the riptide, then next turn you will also kill the unit inside with the bomb. So LR + terminators + character = 600+ pts. I don't mind sacrificing a 200pt unit to take out a 600+ pt unit. It's a very cost-effective trade-off. And if it isn't a terminator unit, then 5-man MSU units aren't going to do much to a T6 2+ monstrous creature.

Teschio wrote:

Think again if you think S6 plasmas or S7 missiles will easily "murder" transports, even with Target Locks. The strength of Tau is to focus-fire to whittle down any unit, transports included. If you have to diversify your firepower, you are doing the exact opposite of that. Yeah, you may kill multiple vehicles if you're lucky, but more realistically, you'll just be taking 1-2 HP's off of various vehicles. And Tau does deal with multiple units better than other deathstars, but make no mistake, it is still a deathstar. The only difference is that other deathstars take on multiple units in the Assault phase whereas the Farsight-bomb takes on multiple units in the shooting phase.

When i say i can kill multiple vehicles, it's because i have done it... and you don't need to be very lucky to do it. Against an AV11 vehicle, a single MP suits with Tank Hunter has a good chance of destroying it, or at least immobilize it. Same goes for Plasma suits, 2 of them are 8 shots, 6 hits, on a 5+ it's an HP, and i reroll that dice too... it's an average of 3.333 HPs JUST with two suits (and this is WITHOUT rolling on the Penetrating Hit table, in which they have a +1 as well). the FB suits murders another one with a certain reliability. I have played this list long enough that i know when to focus and when to split fire, depending on what i need.
Please, can you tell me which other Deathstar has the same mobility, firepower, resistance and flexibility? Because i'm curious now...

I believe you. Tank Hunter + re-rolls to hit makes them very nasty.....against rhino-spam. Against other types of mech - necron AV13-spam, mechdar, IG mechguards, not so much.

BTW, you can find my Deathstar experiments here:


Battle of the Deathstars (Battle Report Links on p.1)