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 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Or maybe you can.learn to use one army to its strengths rather than cheesily plugging holes with other books?

I think this is a really unfair statement. I don't understand how people can call allies cheesy when they are as much apart of the game as other 'overpowered' units such as nightscythes of vendettas. To me this just sounds like you haven't adapted to the new rules and are taking it out on everyone else.

ya, those should be fixed too.
allies is easier to get rid of. why should people want to adapt to broken rules?

Well, frankly based on what you (the OP) said, your chances would seem pretty good regardless of what you play. So, if worried about anti-air, why not just play the Orks? They might not be top-tier anymore, but locally here they used to beat most armies except CronAir and pre-6th Daemons, can't say about DA/Tau/Eldar though, since I've only seen DA play against CronAir and the other two not at all with their new codices.

Plus if the others are new/bad, you don't really need a top tier army since you're by your own admission almost always winning anyway.

kb305 wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Or maybe you can.learn to use one army to its strengths rather than cheesily plugging holes with other books?

I think this is a really unfair statement. I don't understand how people can call allies cheesy when they are as much apart of the game as other 'overpowered' units such as nightscythes of vendettas. To me this just sounds like you haven't adapted to the new rules and are taking it out on everyone else.

ya, those should be fixed too.
allies is easier to get rid of. why should people want to adapt to broken rules?

Because they ARE the rules. Its blatantly biased to cherry pick which rules you like and want to play with, especially in a tourney unless its fixing a RAW/I problem. Its like saying that someone can refuse to play you just because you play a vendetta, of course they can, its a game. Buts its still childish and its not him being the bad sportsmen, its the person who wont play him. Its about what is part of the game, making the most out of the rules? Part of the game. Choosing which rules you like and don't like, then enforcing your opinion on everyone else? Not part of the game, and childish from my point of view. Its a game, play the rules or play something else.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Its a game, play the rules or play something else.

Yep, that's why if you don't like a tournament's rules, you just don't attend.

 marv335 wrote:
No allies?
I'd be all over a tournament like that.
To me, that's what I want to see in a tournament.

+1

No allies, no fliers, =/<1000pts and forgeworld permitted is my ideal combo.

I think this is a really unfair statement. I don't understand how people can call allies cheesy when they are as much apart of the game as other 'overpowered' units such as nightscythes of vendettas. To me this just sounds like you haven't adapted to the new rules and are taking it out on everyone else.

Most fliers are cheesy too. Your point?

Because they ARE the rules. Its blatantly biased to cherry pick which rules you like and want to play with, especially in a tourney unless its fixing a RAW/I problem. Its like saying that someone can refuse to play you just because you play a vendetta, of course they can, its a game. Buts its still childish and its not him being the bad sportsmen, its the person who wont play him. Its about what is part of the game, making the most out of the rules? Part of the game. Choosing which rules you like and don't like, then enforcing your opinion on everyone else? Not part of the game, and childish from my point of view. Its a game, play the rules or play something else.

Which is all nice and true in a normal tournament . This one had 6 people out of which one had more then one army to pick from and half of the 6 people were total noobs or had bad armies . Ally would not be fun to for those people to play against . It would be the same if one dude came with a scyth army against 5 other people with no AA and limited collection . The TO can do anything . He can do no FW, no Flyer, ton of them do max 1999 tournaments which sucks for nids etc.

I've refused to play people who fielded certain stuff that makes the game unenjoyable for me. Just because I play 40k, and that dude does as well, doesn't oblige me in any way to play against him - I'm there to have fun, and if I don't find Helldrakes, Vendettas, or most of the Tau gak fun, tough titties for anyone who has a problem with that.

 Dakkamite wrote:

 marv335 wrote:
No allies?
I'd be all over a tournament like that.
To me, that's what I want to see in a tournament.

+1

No allies, no fliers, =/<1000pts and forgeworld permitted is my ideal combo.

I think this is a really unfair statement. I don't understand how people can call allies cheesy when they are as much apart of the game as other 'overpowered' units such as nightscythes of vendettas. To me this just sounds like you haven't adapted to the new rules and are taking it out on everyone else.

Most fliers are cheesy too. Your point?

Well, unless you're not Chaos, the Guard, or the Necrons in which case your fliers run from great (but pricey/fragile) like the Barracudda, to "holy hell why does this exist, dear lord it's terrible" like the Nephilim.

Ork fliers tend to be in the good but frail department.

Honestly I would get the TO's reasoning behind banning allies see if it makes any sort of sence, then mention that there will also be oodles of other cheese armies that new players won't be able to handle and you feel that you should have a fighting chance against these lists, then explain that allies and fortifications are the only practical way for you to be able to handle those lists. If he comes up with some lame excuse that you can see right through I would not bother going to the tournament or try and make a friendly deal with him, if you play by his rules, and you get facerolled, he then plays by normal rules next tournament because clearly he can't try and balance a tournaments rules based on what he sees from a few new players and a person who knows what he is doing

The GW store near me is new and they like to run games/ tourneys that bring out the most people. They will limit the foc and points to fit the widest section of players. Its business, it makes sense. If he let me come in there and roflstomp all the new players, they likely wouldn't come back.

It stinks, but I just play elsewhere. There is no point of even getting into the politics of it all.

OP: The thing I'm having issue seeing is WHY it's an issue. From what you've said, it sounds like you already win pretty handily, and from there are mad you won't win even easier? To play devil's advocate, I'd imagine you may have came off as WAAC to the TO.

Regardless, as others have said go talk to him about it, or don't go. And this thread is not for the discussion of allies as a game mechanic, but this particular instance of banning. If you really want to go down that route, ALEXisAWESOMEMade, you have to remember the game is also subject to modification by the group playing or the TO. That is a simple and straightforward part of the game, that can manifest in interesting ways.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

kb305 wrote:


Because they ARE the rules. Its blatantly biased to cherry pick which rules you like and want to play with, especially in a tourney unless its fixing a RAW/I problem. Its like saying that someone can refuse to play you just because you play a vendetta, of course they can, its a game. Buts its still childish and its not him being the bad sportsmen, its the person who wont play him. Its about what is part of the game, making the most out of the rules? Part of the game. Choosing which rules you like and don't like, then enforcing your opinion on everyone else? Not part of the game, and childish from my point of view. Its a game, play the rules or play something else.

Most of Forge World is 40k approved. There's a stamp of approval and everything. People still refuse to acknowledge that it's in the rules and fully playable.



Sorry on a phone.

To clarify: Other people show up at the tournaments that aren't normally there when I am. At the last tournament, there were two Necron players and an Eldar player I haven't seen before or since. I'm not worried about local competitors, I'm worried about them.

To bad about the allies ruling but I see absolutely nothing wrong with his ruling on the Firestorm Redoubt. The original model for it has 1 fire point on it and even though for some idiotic reason GW set the firing points number at "as modeled" adding extra fire-points is pretty much textbook modeling for advantage in my opinion. For example take two of the models and then glue on hacked off chunks of sprue and glue them onto the front firing point vertically suddenly one model has as many firing points as it wants! Now one is far better than the other due to a completely idiotic RAW argument and starts falling into only something a WAAC player would argue for.

The tournaments I attend do not allow allies and go up to 1999 points for the same reason: simplicity. It is much simpler to run an army out of one book rather than two, then there are fewer arguments as to what effects one army may have on the other, etc. Running under 2000 also speeds things up as no one is grinding through a double FOC list.

Allies, though, are the worst. People take their army and, instead of playing to advantages, look and see what holes can be plugged by other armies. I tire of hearing "oh, you play Dark Angels? Have you tried using Vendettas?"

Waaaghpower wrote:
I don't mind house rules per-say or even the ones he chose, it's that they were chosen in a direct attempt to weaken my army, not to balance the game.
Is this something worth skipping out over, though? I don't want to overreact.

Solofalcon: I don't normally use Allies, but at a Pay-to-Play tournament where there'll be prizes, I want to give myself a fighting chance against some of the more ridiculous armies that I know will be there.

Do you have specific evidence that it was done directly to weaken your army? If not then you are making a big assumption there. It also keeps EVERY one from using allies and it isn't like your ork/space wolves allied force was such a mega powered combination to begin with that it needed to be nerfed directly. Aside from Necron flyer spam what more ridiculous armies will there be? Most of the more heinous offenders lately rely on stacking in eldar allies which will not happen now. So you pick a codex and play your army to your codex and go from there.

If the TO said that *you* can't use allies, but that everyone else can then yes that would be a direct attempt to separate you out. Since everyone is affected it isn't that big a deal. Just make your army and play.

Skriker

Waaaghpower wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
So you say the TO conspired to have you lose a tournament because your army can't stand alone?

No, I'm saying he conspired against me because I beat a few people a whole lot, but it will be much harder to beat other better players without using allies. Nice subtle insult though, I like it.

If I were you I would quit gaming there. Then everyone is happy.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
I think this is a really unfair statement. I don't understand how people can call allies cheesy when they are as much apart of the game as other 'overpowered' units such as nightscythes of vendettas.

What is cheesy about allies is that they were done poorly. There is no balance, no logic, no rhyme or reason. It looks like someone just through darts at a board and some armies got tons of options, and others got few or none. For allies to be really fair, everyone should have access to the same number and level of allied forces, even Tyranids. Given that the rest of the allied table isn't based on fluff in the least, it is silly to punish tyranid players for their fluff, even letting them ally with themselves would give them access to the extra free slot of the various unit types.

I could have handled two options for the allies table: 1 completely fluff based. It would unbalance things toward the Imperial army variaties, but would at least make sense. Failing that a set formula where army X gets 1 or 2 allies at the best level, 2 or 3 at the 2nd best level and then up to 3 options on the lowest level or allow every army to be used as allies of convenience. Instead we get some that are based on fluff. Some that are random and some that make no sense. Why would Space Wolves and Dark Angels willingly ally more closely with a xenos species than with each other, despite the "feud" they have in their flulff.

As it stands the ally table gives advantages to some, but not to thers and that is why it is a fail. No allies was a pretty common 2nd edition Tournement rule as well so it is hardly surprising to see a tourney doing it.

Skriker

 Dakkamite wrote:
I've refused to play people who fielded certain stuff that makes the game unenjoyable for me. Just because I play 40k, and that dude does as well, doesn't oblige me in any way to play against him - I'm there to have fun, and if I don't find Helldrakes, Vendettas, or most of the Tau gak fun, tough titties for anyone who has a problem with that.

That's fine.
But it becomes unreasonable when a group of people refuse to play against something because they are too bad at this game to deal with it in any way other than: "I WON'T PLAY AGAINST IT!"

So what do you do when one of your friends buys a Tau-army because his current army sucks?

Kangodo wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
I've refused to play people who fielded certain stuff that makes the game unenjoyable for me. Just because I play 40k, and that dude does as well, doesn't oblige me in any way to play against him - I'm there to have fun, and if I don't find Helldrakes, Vendettas, or most of the Tau gak fun, tough titties for anyone who has a problem with that.

That's fine.
But it becomes unreasonable when a group of people refuse to play against something because they are too bad at this game to deal with it in any way other than: "I WON'T PLAY AGAINST IT!"

So what do you do when one of your friends buys a Tau-army because his current army sucks?

We viciously torment him for being a whiny WAAC player who can't handle his old army.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
We viciously torment him for being a whiny WAAC player who can't handle his old army.

You must have a lot of friends..

And with 'sucks' I really mean it sucks for him; if he's not enjoying it at all.

You're not required to play in tournaments you don't want to play in.

Kangodo wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
We viciously torment him for being a whiny WAAC player who can't handle his old army.

You must have a lot of friends..

And with 'sucks' I really mean it sucks for him; if he's not enjoying it at all.

Actually, I have a lot of friends. What we don't do is go out and buy the new flavor-of-the-month so we have a winning army. We adapt and improve our game.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
I've refused to play people who fielded certain stuff that makes the game unenjoyable for me. Just because I play 40k, and that dude does as well, doesn't oblige me in any way to play against him - I'm there to have fun, and if I don't find Helldrakes, Vendettas, or most of the Tau gak fun, tough titties for anyone who has a problem with that.

That's fine.
But it becomes unreasonable when a group of people refuse to play against something because they are too bad at this game to deal with it in any way other than: "I WON'T PLAY AGAINST IT!"

So what do you do when one of your friends buys a Tau-army because his current army sucks?

We viciously torment him for being a whiny WAAC player who can't handle his old army.

Sounds like the real problem boils down to WAAC crybabies who can't handle his new army.

I would say don't go if the rules are targeting you, that or talk to the TO about his decision. There are always other venues to participate in, and with out the support of locals the TO will have to change rules to make it work or face declines in attendance.

It sounds to me as if the store has a community of mostly newer inexperienced players. It also sounds like you have no trouble beating them in any competitive match. Let me offer this as an alternative that the TO might allow, something you might enjoy, and something that might gain the goodwill of the others in that community. Them vs you.

Ask the TO if he's up for it, then put 2500-5000 pts of your armies up against the rest of the players. Let them try to smash you, and as the game progresses, if they are indeed new, offer tips on how to improve their play.

Might be fun for you, might help engage the community there, and everybody wins, including the TO who gets to run a fun event? Thoughts?

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Actually, I have a lot of friends. What we don't do is go out and buy the new flavor-of-the-month so we have a winning army. We adapt and improve our game.

It's not about changing to the flavour of the month each time.
It's about people who bought or changed to a new codex, that just happens to be Tau Empire or Necron.

Are you really not going to play against them out of some misplaced feeling of "overpoweredness!"?

Kangodo wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Actually, I have a lot of friends. What we don't do is go out and buy the new flavor-of-the-month so we have a winning army. We adapt and improve our game.

It's not about changing to the flavour of the month each time.
It's about people who bought or changed to a new codex, that just happens to be Tau Empire or Necron.

Are you really not going to play against them out of some misplaced feeling of "overpoweredness!"?

Nope. We would just play aganst them til we figure out how to beat them. However, none of us are FotM players.

Now, back on topic..

This is the topic.
People are preferring to ban stuff instead of learning how to deal with it.
It's a crappy attitude and it will never learn people to play better.

Kangodo wrote:
This is the topic.
People are preferring to ban stuff instead of learning how to deal with it.
It's a crappy attitude and it will never learn people to play better.

Seconded.