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ALEXisAWESOME wrote: You think you have plot armour on your side? HA! The Phoenix Lords *cannot* die, be destroyed or lost until the literal end of the universe. Eldrad has such good plot armour he has been brought back from the grave! What have the Marines got? A guy who looked up the hive minds skirt, a delusional angel and some guys in terminator armour Our Fluff beats yours
Not really. They can be killed, but the personality and skills live on, but they need to be inherited. It is not one guy with god mode on.
Drazhar has god mode on. No one is even sure if there is a man their.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: The Phoenix Lords. Have you read there fluff? They accomplish things Chapter Masters have wet dreams over, usually by themselves. Fuegan personally banished 24 (!!!) greater daemons, 12 in close combat. Maugan Ra was waltzing around the warp before Draigo made it cool, as well as being eaten by a trygon, and slicing his way out!
I'm with araenion, P.Lords are on Primarch scales, chapter masters and captains are left in the dust. Even though the Space marines have psykic superiority (Irilic sucks, Eldrad should be in this!) in theory, you have to remember each and every eldar are at least Iota level psykers. Each P.Lord embodies thousands of powerful (Exarchs are used to power wraithlord, so they are powerful indeed) eldar souls, so we should in no way count them out in psykic defense fluff wise. For the space marines, 3 of those guys have unwieldy weapons, and since fluff wise P.Lord move faster then the eye can follow, you cannot expect even a single one of those to hit. The rest can't even Penetrate armour.
Not to sound fanboyish, but the P.Lord fluff is SO much better then their table top rules. I don't like how they are WS 7 with millions of years experience, while a Dark Eldar Succubus gets WS 8. Or they are matched for Imperial assassins. P.Lords deserve WS/BS 8 and adamantium will, but that's just me.
Phoniex lords all the way. They cannot be killed and are just badass.
Primarch level
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/10/08 02:10:46
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
This is a really hard question, because frankly, it's an impass. Fluffwise, the Phoenix Lords are more skilled and in any normal situation they would win. However, space marine plot armor is so thick that a chapter master would never die to an Eldar Phoenix Lord, being that the fanboys over at GW are having them slay Avatars and similar singlehandedly....
Ravenous D wrote: 40K is like a beloved grandparent that is slowly falling into dementia and the rest of the family is in denial about how bad it is.
squidhills wrote: GW is scared of girls. Why do you think they have so much trouble sculpting attractive female models? Because girls have cooties and the staff at GW don't like looking at them for too long because it makes them feel funny in their naughty place.
SYKOJAK wrote: Marines would take it. They would hit them while they were out of their armor and then take the Phoenix Lord armor as trophies.
3/10 for trolling, at least do what some others do an pretend to of done some homework. you get the 3 points for it being amusingly bad.
Having Drazhar would be awesome, the phoenix lords fluff wise are some of the best martial entities in real space, the whole gang of them would take on the universe (Which incidentally, is there job...)
Araenion wrote: Crimson, exactly my thoughts. Honestly, Phoenix Lords aren't Chapter Master equivalents, they are Primarch equivalents. First, they are eternal. Second, have you read any Maugan Ra fluff? He's more badass than Draigo and he actually does it with style.
I like Space Marine heroes. But in fluff, Phoenix Lords are known for such feats as single-handedly killing a Tyranid Splinter fleet(granted, Ra didn't kill every single Tyranid, just assassinated every big bug to eliminate their synapse), or intercepting a supersonic flier mid air and planting a grenade on its hull. How do you even see something like that, much less hit it in close combat or at range?
You know Primarchs are literally referred to by the Emperor's techies as the energy of a large star in flesh. They challenge entire legions, overpower titans, survive volcano cannons intact, crush mountains with thier minds, and turn oceans to acid.
The Phoenix Lords ARE chapter masters equivalents.
Finally found my quote from a gym buddy born and raised in South Korea:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
"It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."
Daba wrote: The Emperor's techies were never that smart though.
Ehh the creation of the primarchs and marines still looks good on job applications
Finally found my quote from a gym buddy born and raised in South Korea:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
"It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."
Araenion wrote: Crimson, exactly my thoughts. Honestly, Phoenix Lords aren't Chapter Master equivalents, they are Primarch equivalents. First, they are eternal. Second, have you read any Maugan Ra fluff? He's more badass than Draigo and he actually does it with style.
I like Space Marine heroes. But in fluff, Phoenix Lords are known for such feats as single-handedly killing a Tyranid Splinter fleet(granted, Ra didn't kill every single Tyranid, just assassinated every big bug to eliminate their synapse), or intercepting a supersonic flier mid air and planting a grenade on its hull. How do you even see something like that, much less hit it in close combat or at range?
You know Primarchs are literally referred to by the Emperor's techies as the energy of a large star in flesh. They challenge entire legions, overpower titans, survive volcano cannons intact, crush mountains with thier minds, and turn oceans to acid.
The Phoenix Lords ARE chapter masters equivalents.
Have we not stated the fluff that marks them out as Primarch equivalents? How about Fuegan banishing 24(!) greater daemons, 12 in close combat. That is a Primarch feat, no chapter master could accomplish that, but i'd love for you to provide sources to prove me wrong. How about Maugan Ra cutting a Bio Titian in half (Arguably a **Very** large Trygon, I read it as a Bio Titian) simply by standing still while it ate him. More Primarch stuff. Gallivanting in the warp and getting sh*t done there? High level character stuff (With Draigo's lore being terrible anyway...). Also, for the record, when stating things that Primarches do in general, its a good idea to take achievement from different ones, rather then simply Magnus (Although I don't recall any primarch surviving a volcano cannon unprotected, source?), who we ALL know your feelings on his power level.
Challenging Legions? Destroying Splinter fleets, Titians? Daemon Lords. Volcano cannons? Every other kind of death you can think of. Oh, and each phoenix lord is practically a mini infinity circuit, containing thousands of powerful eldar souls within the armour. So the 'Energy' inside them is comparable. Phoenix Lords ARE Primarch scale, in my opinion. In YOUR opinion they might not be, but if you don't think so, don't tell everyone else they are wrong without backing up your claims or at least state it as opinion rather then fact. Its not good debating.
Alex.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/08 23:00:19
Araenion wrote: Crimson, exactly my thoughts. Honestly, Phoenix Lords aren't Chapter Master equivalents, they are Primarch equivalents. First, they are eternal. Second, have you read any Maugan Ra fluff? He's more badass than Draigo and he actually does it with style.
I like Space Marine heroes. But in fluff, Phoenix Lords are known for such feats as single-handedly killing a Tyranid Splinter fleet(granted, Ra didn't kill every single Tyranid, just assassinated every big bug to eliminate their synapse), or intercepting a supersonic flier mid air and planting a grenade on its hull. How do you even see something like that, much less hit it in close combat or at range?
You know Primarchs are literally referred to by the Emperor's techies as the energy of a large star in flesh. They challenge entire legions, overpower titans, survive volcano cannons intact, crush mountains with thier minds, and turn oceans to acid.
The Phoenix Lords ARE chapter masters equivalents.
Have we not stated the fluff that marks them out as Primarch equivalents? How about Fuegan banishing 24(!) greater daemons, 12 in close combat. That is a Primarch feat, no chapter master could accomplish that, but i'd love for you to provide sources to prove me wrong. How about Maugan Ra cutting a Bio Titian in half (Arguably a **Very** large Trygon, I read it as a Bio Titian) simply by standing still while it ate him. More Primarch stuff. Gallivanting in the warp and getting sh*t done there? High level character stuff (With Draigo's lore being terrible anyway...). Also, for the record, when stating things that Primarches do in general, its a good idea to take achievement from different ones, rather then simply Magnus (Although I don't recall any primarch surviving a volcano cannon unprotected, source?), who we ALL know your feelings on his power level.
Challenging Legions? Destroying Splinter fleets, Titians? Daemon Lords. Volcano cannons? Every other kind of death you can think of. Oh, and each phoenix lord is practically a mini infinity circuit, containing thousands of powerful eldar souls within the armour. So the 'Energy' inside them is comparable. Phoenix Lords ARE Primarch scale, in my opinion. In YOUR opinion they might not be, but if you don't think so, don't tell everyone else they are wrong without backing up your claims or at least state it as opinion rather then fact. Its not good debating.
Alex.
The phoenix lords die from those though.
Was the daemon killing all at once? If it was one at a time a CM of Dante's calibre with luck could do the same.
Regardless let's compare the statlines of Horus and Ra
Horus: 8/5/7/6/6/6/5/10 S:10 AP:1 weapon, 4+ It Will Not Die, 2+/3++
Ra: 7/7/4/4/3/7/4/10 S:6 AP:3 weapon, 2+
Finally found my quote from a gym buddy born and raised in South Korea:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
"It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."
The Phoenix Lords didn't die from them though, otherwise it would state that they died from it, which it didn't, so we can assume they didn't die from it. The daemon killing (Which I was wrong about, he in fact banished 32, as it said a score with his fire pike, and a dozen more with his fire axe) was all in the final battle of the World of Blood and tears. Still not Primarch for you?
Regardless, you of all people must understand that fluff=/=statline. When Forgeworld create Magnus, I doubt you would be happy unless he is mastery level 12 with apoc blasts coming out of his ears because that's what his fluff was like, but he wont be, because balance. Compare an Ironarmed swarmlord with Lash whip guard to a Primarch and most of the time the Swarmlord wins, but would he win in the fluff? I doubt it. This is primarily a fluff debate anyway, and we have already agreed that the P>lords statline didn't justify the fluff.
**Edit** Also something I think you will find interesting from a popular fan fic warhammer 60k, Age of Dusk. Leman Russ and Corax Vs Maugan Ra, great fight.
Spoiler:
“Let us see if the sagas of your deeds are as justified as mine,” Russ stated simply, before charging towards Maugan Ra.
Maugan Ra shot him. Dozens of perfectly placed shuriken, that struck him in every one of his yet to be healed wounds from fighting the Avatar. Russ dropped as if winded, falling to his knees across the steps leading to the Shrine. Corax closed the distance more quickly than Russ, but Ra caught him with a volley from Maugetar, which caught his shoulder wound, which caused him to flinch and narrowly miss Maugan Ra when his charge reached the Phoenix Lord. Ra stepped aside, and deflected the Raven’s power lash with a flick of his scythe. With a thunderclap of discharge, the two weapons recoiled from one another. At point blank range, Maugetar fired directly into Corax a hundred times. This was enough to stagger even the Lord of the Raven Guard, who fell back slightly.
“I like him,” Russ laughed, as he pounded his fist into the craftworld’s hull with the force of a vengeful titan. The force of the shockwave unsteadied Ra for a moment, and that was all he needed. He rushed the Phoenix Lord, and slammed his shoulder into him as he swept his blade around to finish the fight.
Ra rode the shoulder barge, and swayed aside to avoid the frostblade’s chilling touch. His own blade hooked behind Russ’ knee, and slashed away the tendons there. Russ backhanded Ra around the face, and the Lord was sent sprawling. Maugan rolled to his feet, his legs setting as he stood. Ignoring the immobility a normal man would ahve experienced, Russ too rose to his feet.
Russ raised his sword to point at Ra. Ra in turn, had his weapon aimed squarely at Russ’ neck. Russ knew if he lunged, he would be instantly killed; decapitated by a volley of screaming shuriken. But Ra did not shoot, for Corax stood at his side, his own sidearm pressed against the Lord’s Temple. Corax had outmanoeuvred him, as the raven was perfectly suited to do.
A stand-off.
Leman Russ raised his hands in a placating manner.
“This gets us nowhere. You know why we have come, Reaper,” Russ explained, and Ra knew then that Russ spoke the truth. He did know why they had come to Altansat, just to gain an audience with him.
Ra lowered his cannon, and Corax soon followed suit. Maugan Ra walked away from the Shrine’s steps, gesturing for the Primarchs to follow him. It was only then that Corax noticed that his sidearm had a shuriken lodged in its firing mechanism. Maugan Ra had already disarmed him, before he had even drew the pistol. Russ quelled his brother’s wrath, and bid him to follow him after the eldar warrior.
Alex
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/10/08 23:33:07
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: The Phoenix Lords didn't die from them though, otherwise it would state that they died from it, which it didn't, so we can assume they didn't die from it. The daemon killing (Which I was wrong about, he in fact banished 32, as it said a score with his fire pike, and a dozen more with his fire axe) was all in the final battle of the World of Blood and tears. Still not Primarch for you?
Regardless, you of all people must understand that fluff=/=statline. When Forgeworld create Magnus, I doubt you would be happy unless he is mastery level 12 with apoc blasts coming out of his ears because that's what his fluff was like, but he wont be, because balance. Compare an Ironarmed swarmlord with Lash whip guard to a Primarch and most of the time the Swarmlord wins, but would he win in the fluff? I doubt it. This is primarily a fluff debate anyway, and we have already agreed that the P>lords statline didn't justify the fluff.
**Edit** Also something I think you will find interesting from a popular fan fic warhammer 60k, Age of Dusk. Leman Russ and Corax Vs Maugan Ra, great fight.
Spoiler:
“Let us see if the sagas of your deeds are as justified as mine,” Russ stated simply, before charging towards Maugan Ra.
Maugan Ra shot him. Dozens of perfectly placed shuriken, that struck him in every one of his yet to be healed wounds from fighting the Avatar. Russ dropped as if winded, falling to his knees across the steps leading to the Shrine. Corax closed the distance more quickly than Russ, but Ra caught him with a volley from Maugetar, which caught his shoulder wound, which caused him to flinch and narrowly miss Maugan Ra when his charge reached the Phoenix Lord. Ra stepped aside, and deflected the Raven’s power lash with a flick of his scythe. With a thunderclap of discharge, the two weapons recoiled from one another. At point blank range, Maugetar fired directly into Corax a hundred times. This was enough to stagger even the Lord of the Raven Guard, who fell back slightly.
“I like him,” Russ laughed, as he pounded his fist into the craftworld’s hull with the force of a vengeful titan. The force of the shockwave unsteadied Ra for a moment, and that was all he needed. He rushed the Phoenix Lord, and slammed his shoulder into him as he swept his blade around to finish the fight.
Ra rode the shoulder barge, and swayed aside to avoid the frostblade’s chilling touch. His own blade hooked behind Russ’ knee, and slashed away the tendons there. Russ backhanded Ra around the face, and the Lord was sent sprawling. Maugan rolled to his feet, his legs setting as he stood. Ignoring the immobility a normal man would ahve experienced, Russ too rose to his feet.
Russ raised his sword to point at Ra. Ra in turn, had his weapon aimed squarely at Russ’ neck. Russ knew if he lunged, he would be instantly killed; decapitated by a volley of screaming shuriken. But Ra did not shoot, for Corax stood at his side, his own sidearm pressed against the Lord’s Temple. Corax had outmanoeuvred him, as the raven was perfectly suited to do.
A stand-off.
Leman Russ raised his hands in a placating manner.
“This gets us nowhere. You know why we have come, Reaper,” Russ explained, and Ra knew then that Russ spoke the truth. He did know why they had come to Altansat, just to gain an audience with him.
Ra lowered his cannon, and Corax soon followed suit. Maugan Ra walked away from the Shrine’s steps, gesturing for the Primarchs to follow him. It was only then that Corax noticed that his sidearm had a shuriken lodged in its firing mechanism. Maugan Ra had already disarmed him, before he had even drew the pistol. Russ quelled his brother’s wrath, and bid him to follow him after the eldar warrior.
Alex
Because it wasn't stated you think it didnt kill him? And here we get to to the source, that's not proper logic. The primarchs are monsters and the Phoenix lords are just strong eldar.
Look at the stats difference, Horus is about 3 times more durable, and hits twice as hard.
From a fluff standpoint there's always Magnus fighting the entire space wolves legion, thousands of custodes, the sisters of silence and WINNING until Russ gets lucky.
That was a decent read but an eldar got the jump on Corax? That ain't gonna happen. He has eyes on every edifice.
Finally found my quote from a gym buddy born and raised in South Korea:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
"It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."
Da Epic Pegasus wrote: Well if you consider that Maugan Ra pulled his craftworld out of the warp...BY HIMSELF then I think Eldar would kick the Marines booties!!!
That's so stupid, and a clear example of a codex making its army "the best". Is Ra even a psyker?
Finally found my quote from a gym buddy born and raised in South Korea:
"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press.
"It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech.
"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate.
"It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."
All phoenix lords have tremendous latend psykic power, due to them being a mini infinity circuit, we know this from the old codex that says when Ra entered the warp he did so on 'Wings of soul fire'. I would also say that think he isn't 'dead' because it didn't say he died is the only logic I can use without being Biased. Saying he in fact did die is making up he did die is making our own fluff. So no, Maugan Ra did destroy a splinterfleet by himself and he didn't die. Fuegan did beat down 32 greater daemons in a single battle.
From a fluff stabd point, that's Ra taking on millions of Gants, thousands of synapse beasts and a butt load of big beasties.
Also take a read of the first page (?, not exactly sure) of the Horus Heresy Legion books. It says that warhammer 30k isn't made to be in line with 40k stats, so they stats and unit costs aren't comparable. There, now each and every argument about statlines is invalid, because the Heresy book itself told you they aren't made to be intractable.
For the fluff, I thought you'd enjoy it. Yes a PHOENIX LORD (Their not even elder any more, just an amalgamation of souls) snuck up on Corax and considering Ra is synonymous with death and the reaper, I could assume he stands at everyones shoulder.
Ravenous D wrote: 40K is like a beloved grandparent that is slowly falling into dementia and the rest of the family is in denial about how bad it is.
squidhills wrote: GW is scared of girls. Why do you think they have so much trouble sculpting attractive female models? Because girls have cooties and the staff at GW don't like looking at them for too long because it makes them feel funny in their naughty place.
Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives.
A Phoenix Lord would be a lot more 'normal' and less powerful back then, as the fall had just happened and they haven't absorbed many (or maybe any) Exarchs yet.
The Phoenix Lords were still the best of the eldar at that time, thats why they trained under Asurmen (who was the actual best)
There's a quote about the dominant personality in the suit somewhere that goes along the lines of
'The first and greatest exarch to wear the suit' - I see that as most of the rest of the exarchs add a few memories and some soul sustenance.
Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives.
Yeah, that's true. I think the skill would be there, but they wouldn't have the psychic might, and be more biological (so less 'power') than they are today.
Either way, I'd love to see them in the heresy books
Although if any do appear, they are liable to get roflstomped by a primarch.
Thats the price of having your gimmick be resurrection - you become kill fodder...
I'd love to see one of the less used phoenix lords - Fuegan/Baharroth or Asurmen.
Who wouldn't want to see Baharroth vs Night Haunter or Corax?
Or Fuegan vs Vulkan in a melt off?
Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: The Phoenix Lords didn't die from them though, otherwise it would state that they died from it, which it didn't, so we can assume they didn't die from it. The daemon killing (Which I was wrong about, he in fact banished 32, as it said a score with his fire pike, and a dozen more with his fire axe) was all in the final battle of the World of Blood and tears. Still not Primarch for you?
Regardless, you of all people must understand that fluff=/=statline. When Forgeworld create Magnus, I doubt you would be happy unless he is mastery level 12 with apoc blasts coming out of his ears because that's what his fluff was like, but he wont be, because balance. Compare an Ironarmed swarmlord with Lash whip guard to a Primarch and most of the time the Swarmlord wins, but would he win in the fluff? I doubt it. This is primarily a fluff debate anyway, and we have already agreed that the P>lords statline didn't justify the fluff.
**Edit** Also something I think you will find interesting from a popular fan fic warhammer 60k, Age of Dusk. Leman Russ and Corax Vs Maugan Ra, great fight.
Spoiler:
“Let us see if the sagas of your deeds are as justified as mine,” Russ stated simply, before charging towards Maugan Ra.
Maugan Ra shot him. Dozens of perfectly placed shuriken, that struck him in every one of his yet to be healed wounds from fighting the Avatar. Russ dropped as if winded, falling to his knees across the steps leading to the Shrine. Corax closed the distance more quickly than Russ, but Ra caught him with a volley from Maugetar, which caught his shoulder wound, which caused him to flinch and narrowly miss Maugan Ra when his charge reached the Phoenix Lord. Ra stepped aside, and deflected the Raven’s power lash with a flick of his scythe. With a thunderclap of discharge, the two weapons recoiled from one another. At point blank range, Maugetar fired directly into Corax a hundred times. This was enough to stagger even the Lord of the Raven Guard, who fell back slightly.
“I like him,” Russ laughed, as he pounded his fist into the craftworld’s hull with the force of a vengeful titan. The force of the shockwave unsteadied Ra for a moment, and that was all he needed. He rushed the Phoenix Lord, and slammed his shoulder into him as he swept his blade around to finish the fight.
Ra rode the shoulder barge, and swayed aside to avoid the frostblade’s chilling touch. His own blade hooked behind Russ’ knee, and slashed away the tendons there. Russ backhanded Ra around the face, and the Lord was sent sprawling. Maugan rolled to his feet, his legs setting as he stood. Ignoring the immobility a normal man would ahve experienced, Russ too rose to his feet.
Russ raised his sword to point at Ra. Ra in turn, had his weapon aimed squarely at Russ’ neck. Russ knew if he lunged, he would be instantly killed; decapitated by a volley of screaming shuriken. But Ra did not shoot, for Corax stood at his side, his own sidearm pressed against the Lord’s Temple. Corax had outmanoeuvred him, as the raven was perfectly suited to do.
A stand-off.
Leman Russ raised his hands in a placating manner.
“This gets us nowhere. You know why we have come, Reaper,” Russ explained, and Ra knew then that Russ spoke the truth. He did know why they had come to Altansat, just to gain an audience with him.
Ra lowered his cannon, and Corax soon followed suit. Maugan Ra walked away from the Shrine’s steps, gesturing for the Primarchs to follow him. It was only then that Corax noticed that his sidearm had a shuriken lodged in its firing mechanism. Maugan Ra had already disarmed him, before he had even drew the pistol. Russ quelled his brother’s wrath, and bid him to follow him after the eldar warrior.
Alex
Because it wasn't stated you think it didnt kill him? And here we get to to the source, that's not proper logic. The primarchs are monsters and the Phoenix lords are just strong eldar.
Look at the stats difference, Horus is about 3 times more durable, and hits twice as hard.
From a fluff standpoint there's always Magnus fighting the entire space wolves legion, thousands of custodes, the sisters of silence and WINNING until Russ gets lucky.
That was a decent read but an eldar got the jump on Corax? That ain't gonna happen. He has eyes on every edifice.
What a silly argument, you are really using stats to justify your argument in a game system where Abaddon the Despoiler - you know, blessed by all four Chaos Gods and perceived as the Harbinger of the Apocalypse - is only a 250ish point character that isn't even the dominant character in the game. 99% of the time in-game profiles do NOT match the fluff, just look at how easily Space Marines die in 6th Edition, or how Ahriman can't take Divination, etc. Abaddon should realistically be way more powerful than he currently is if you read his fluff, the guy is apparently destined to slay the Emperor. You don't have that kind of prophecy about you with the stat-line he has currently. Fluff =/= rules. You really have to consider that all 40K codices are designed with games of 1000-2500 points in mind, any larger tends to be more in the realm of Apocalypse. With that in mind, you need to have characters who aren't too expensive that they will actually see use in your average game, which is why Abaddon, the Phoenix Lords, the Swarmlord and so on are mostly normalized around the 200 to 300 point range. Fateweaver is the most expensive character in the game and even he doesn't really compare fluff wise to those I just mentioned.
If the Primarchs are monsters, then what are the Phoenix Lords? "just strong eldar" are you serious? They were the original eternal warriors, are effectively immortal and are the most peerless warriors in their chosen form of war in the galaxy. That isn't conjecture, that is what they are depicted as in the fluff. They may as well be the different faces of Sun Tzu reborn as a deity. Asurmen is perhaps the most skilled warrior in the galaxy, and taught all of the other Phoenix Lords their trade. Baharroth can spur the Eldar into a frenzy of heroism through his mere appearance, and dominates the skies single-handedly. Maugan Ra is the deadliest assassin in the galaxy, having single-handedly slain every single Synapse creature across a Hive Fleet. Fuegan obliterates everything he touches, and is nearly impossible to bring down. Jain Zar and Drazhar (he is a Phoenix Lord after all) are the most graceful and proficient melee combatants to ever the grace the field of battle. Karandras is on a similar vein, a ghost that is almost impossible to trace. They are each the culmination of thousands, perhaps more, Eldar spirits that all give their voice to war. Combine that with the finest equipment available to one of the two most advanced races in the galaxy, and it is no surprise that they are billed as Primarch equivalents.
You can't seriously deny their accomplishments while bringing up those of the Primarchs. Sure, Magnus did some crazy stuff, but as noted earlier, Maugan Ra and Fuegan alone have him beat - and very easily too.
As to the debate, fluff wise, the Eldar, for all the reasons mentioned above. A fairer comparison would be between the Chapter Masters and the most famous Autarchs and psykers of the Eldar, including Yriel and Eldrad. Rules wise, it is very tight. The thing to note about Space Marine and Eldar characters is that they are almost always support oriented more than anything else.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/10/10 10:34:40
The stats never match the fluff, but they can still be used as a guideline. If character A's stats are better than character B's stats in every single way, then obviously it is meant to portray that character A is a more powerful character both in game and in fluff.
Grey Eldar, or Eldar who have fallen to Chaos are flat out stated as the most powerful servents of Chaos in the universe (this or any other), in the Realms of Chaos books (the original chaos Bible). That's a single Eldar soul, beefed up a bit by Chaos Gods. Pheonix Lords are the combination of thousands of the absolute pinnacle of the Eldar warrior caste. They are not beings of flesh and blood, when their armour is pierced there is nothing but starlight inside. They are psychic beings in exactly the same vein as the Emperor. The Emperor was made up of several thousand human Psychers, and is the ultimate psycher. The Pheonix Lords are made up of several thousand Eldar Warriors, and are the ultimate Warriors.
Orblivion wrote: The stats never match the fluff, but they can still be used as a guideline. If character A's stats are better than character B's stats in every single way, then obviously it is meant to portray that character A is a more powerful character both in game and in fluff.
Helbrecht has Ghazkghull running scared in the fluff, yet Helbrecht is easily the weaker of the two rules wise. Ahriman is supposed to be the most powerful psyker among the Astartes but is outclassed by the far younger and less learned Tigurius in game, hell Ahriman is inferior to Fateweaver and Eldrad as well, even when all four of them should be on a very even keel. Lucius was one of the greatest duelists in any Legion before and during the Heresy, with almost no equal. So why do characters like Pedro Kantor kick his butt in combat?
I'm sorry, but this has been done to death. It is all a balance thing and comes down to what each individual codex author decides is a fitting representation of that character. For example, if Marneus Calgar killed an Avatar of Khaine with his bare hands, but was ripped apart with apparent ease by the Swarmlord, why does the Avatar have the strongest stat-line (not overall profile) of the three? You have to understand that the Phoenix Lords in Codex: Eldar are designed with regular games in mind, as they are classic special characters and a lot of players would be angry if they were reserved to Apocalypse games much like the Primarchs. Despite this, the fluff recognizes that the Phoenix Lords are quite possibly the greatest warriors in the galaxy and are effectively one-man armies to match even the Primarchs.
TLDR: Fluff =/= rules. I want to stop repeating myself.
Araenion wrote: Crimson, exactly my thoughts. Honestly, Phoenix Lords aren't Chapter Master equivalents, they are Primarch equivalents. First, they are eternal. Second, have you read any Maugan Ra fluff? He's more badass than Draigo and he actually does it with style.
I like Space Marine heroes. But in fluff, Phoenix Lords are known for such feats as single-handedly killing a Tyranid Splinter fleet(granted, Ra didn't kill every single Tyranid, just assassinated every big bug to eliminate their synapse), or intercepting a supersonic flier mid air and planting a grenade on its hull. How do you even see something like that, much less hit it in close combat or at range?
You know Primarchs are literally referred to by the Emperor's techies as the energy of a large star in flesh. They challenge entire legions, overpower titans, survive volcano cannons intact, crush mountains with thier minds, and turn oceans to acid.
The Phoenix Lords ARE chapter masters equivalents.
You know how those are legends and myths about the Primarchs and might not have actually happened the way the myths and legends say they did, right?
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Araenion wrote: Crimson, exactly my thoughts. Honestly, Phoenix Lords aren't Chapter Master equivalents, they are Primarch equivalents. First, they are eternal. Second, have you read any Maugan Ra fluff? He's more badass than Draigo and he actually does it with style.
I like Space Marine heroes. But in fluff, Phoenix Lords are known for such feats as single-handedly killing a Tyranid Splinter fleet(granted, Ra didn't kill every single Tyranid, just assassinated every big bug to eliminate their synapse), or intercepting a supersonic flier mid air and planting a grenade on its hull. How do you even see something like that, much less hit it in close combat or at range?
You know Primarchs are literally referred to by the Emperor's techies as the energy of a large star in flesh. They challenge entire legions, overpower titans, survive volcano cannons intact, crush mountains with thier minds, and turn oceans to acid.
The Phoenix Lords ARE chapter masters equivalents.
You know how those are legends and myths about the Primarchs and might not have actually happened the way the myths and legends say they did, right?
Though we have Maugen Ra *actually* taking on a Hive Fleet single-handed and actually winning in the contemporary era of 40K, not re-told as a myth now 10,000 years past.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/10 18:37:41
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
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Blood Ravens (using Ravenguard CT) 1500 l 
