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 Seaward wrote:
I think it's quite troubling that American citizens could consider the display of the American flag to be antagonistic.

It happened during the revolution - loyalists (technically American) were quite antagonised


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the logic of the ruling, would it be illegal to wear a redcoat on the 4th of July?

 Seaward wrote:
I think it's quite troubling that American citizens could consider the display of the American flag to be antagonistic.

Who said anything about American citizens?

SAN FRANCISCO (AP) — A federal appeals court says high school officials in Northern California acted appropriately when they ordered students wearing American flag T-shirts to turn the garments inside out during the Mexican heritage celebration Cinco de Mayo.

Sounds like....



Reverse Racism.

It sounds like the problem is in the community and the school officials are trying to limit the effects within the confines of the school. You don't usually end up with a problem as extreme as this without it being part of a larger, systemic problem.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Seaward wrote:
I think it's quite troubling that American citizens could consider the display of the American flag to be antagonistic.

It happened during the revolution - loyalists (technically American) were quite antagonised


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the logic of the ruling, would it be illegal to wear a redcoat on the 4th of July?

I always wear a red coat on we-didn't-want-it-anyway day

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Wasnt it proven the boys where doing it to antagonize those celebrating Cinco De mayo

Hey you know whats awesome, Cinqo de Mayo is a barely known holiday in Mexico. Its not a US holiday. It has nothing to do with the US except as an excuse to drink booze. Its not even Mexican independence day.

The school administrators need to be fired then driven out of town with torches and pitchforks. Seriously. This country is falling to pieces with people forgetting this is the Freaking US of A and not Mexico.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Do they realize that Cinco de Mayo isn't just celebrated by "illegal aliens"?

Do they realize its NOT A US HOLIDAY.

 AduroT wrote:
I'm gonna wear a Kkk hoodie into Harlem and if they have a problem with it it's their fault.

I'm not sure the American flag and a Klan hood are entirely comparable.

 Frazzled wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Wasnt it proven the boys where doing it to antagonize those celebrating Cinco De mayo

Hey you know whats awesome, Cinqo de Mayo is a barely known holiday in Mexico. Its not a US holiday. It has nothing to do with the US except as an excuse to drink booze. Its not even Mexican independence day.

The school administrators need to be fired then driven out of town with torches and pitchforks. Seriously. This country is falling to pieces with people forgetting this is the Freaking US of A and not Mexico.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Do they realize that Cinco de Mayo isn't just celebrated by "illegal aliens"?

Do they realize its NOT A US HOLIDAY.

Mothers day is a bigger holiday in Mexico than Cico de Mayo, and they do it up big. Groups go around the neighborhood, seranading each other's mothers, there are huge gatherings for dinners, music and dancing, with gift being given. My neighborhood is largly Hispanic and it's the same here.

 ZultanQ wrote:

The reason somebody wears something doesn't matter at all, at the end of the day it's a shirt and if somebody else gets mad about a shirt they need to reevaluate their priorities. That said, I'm all for strict uniforms at schools so maybe that's how we could handle stupid problems like this.

I'm pretty sure that the reason's people do things matter a great deal for alot of things.

Also, on one hand you are talking about everybody being able to express themselves however you want but in the next breath you say that you're ok with school uniforms. I'm not sure I understand your stance, unless you intend for the school uniforms to be American flags as well I guess.

 Seaward wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
I'm gonna wear a Kkk hoodie into Harlem and if they have a problem with it it's their fault.

I'm not sure the American flag and a Klan hood are entirely comparable.

Hey, Freedom of expression.

 Seaward wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
I'm gonna wear a Kkk hoodie into Harlem and if they have a problem with it it's their fault.

I'm not sure the American flag and a Klan hood are entirely comparable.

I guess it depends on where you go...

 ZultanQ wrote:

The reason somebody wears something doesn't matter at all, at the end of the day it's a shirt and if somebody else gets mad about a shirt they need to reevaluate their priorities. That said, I'm all for strict uniforms at schools so maybe that's how we could handle stupid problems like this.

As for Americans being "unhealthily patriotic", actually, modern Americans are becoming less patriotic. Most foreigners just think we're too patriotic because they aren't patriotic at all and don't even know what patriotism is.

Sweden is a great country in many ways, my point was that it is also a cesspool of far left ideology and such a model would be harmful to the US. If you don't understand this by now, a few examples would be radical feminism, the Islamification of public interests, and their entire country basically being a doormat that says "Immigrants please walk all over me, if anybody has a problem with this they are a racist bigot". It's beyond the scope of this thread and if you think this isn't the case in Sweden then we can agree to disagree.

If modern americans are becoming less patriotic, that's a good thing. I know what patriotism is, thanks, I just think it's a negative trait.

Your use of the term "cesspool" to describe the "far left" ideology of Sweden is enough for me to know we're not going to see eye to eye on that. I think you are over exaggerating and over simplifying, though. I could just as easily describe the US as a cesspool of neo-liberal wealth worship where the rich are idolised to the massive detriment of the majority, and it'd be just about as accurate.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Do they realize that Cinco de Mayo isn't just celebrated by "illegal aliens"?

Do they realize its NOT A US HOLIDAY.

Neither is St. Patrick's day; make sure you screech that at everyone you see wearing green in a few weeks.

 Da Boss wrote:
If modern americans are becoming less patriotic, that's a good thing. I know what patriotism is, thanks, I just think it's a negative trait.

I know you said you know what it is, but just to clarify, we're not conflating "patriotism" with "jingoism", are we?

'Merica

Ouze: Jingoism is an even more negative extension of the already negative trait of patriotism.

I am generally against dividing the world up into countries. Let me give you an example from my lessons.

I was teaching Global Warming (contentious already, but let's leave that debate for another day) and was talking about global carbon output. I was also talking about the current explosion in population and how the increasing population of the world would result in escalating outputs, and how this presented a real problem with regard to controlling it.

One of the kids said "Well, why don't we just nuke India and China. They've got the most people and the fastest expanding population."

I said "Hang on, why pick those areas?"
He said "Those are the countries with the largest populations!"
I said "Why should it matter what country the people live in?"
The kids were really thrown sideways when we started to discuss the idea that deciding things like that based on "countries" made no particular sense (aside from the fact that nuking anywhere to kill off a couple of billion people is a terrible idea anyhow, but he was being a controversial teenager.)
I then pointed out that the most efficient thing to do, if we're killing people to lower carbon output, would be to destroy the US and Western Europe, as we use far more per head of population than people in "those countries".

But the entire idea of countries puts the world into an "Us vs. Them" paradigm, and I think that is inherently harmful. I think we have to start thinking globally or we're never going to solve some of the problems we will face in the coming decades.

Edit: And I understand the various counter arguments about countries being important as administrative units/cultural blocs/ tradition etc etc etc.

My school had a very lax dress code. The De Facto uniform was pajama pants, a T-shirt and Jordan slip-on sandals. I wouldn't even wear that to take out the trash.

Isn't there an article that states that wearing a flag on an article of clothing is an unauthorized display, or something? The first thought I had when reading that was the American Flag Boxers they sell in walmart and many other stores. Something about the Colors being worn on the filthiest part of the body is just offensive.

This is California. I'd bet the high schoolers causing a problem are not citizens.

 Seaward wrote:
Why did you need to add several other symbols to make your example work?

Because you seemed to be struggling with just the one.

Make it just the St George's Cross, make it in during a race riot. There's your symbol, and your context giving it a totally different meaning than that cross would have it it were, say, carried by a bunch of English tourists travelling across Australia during an Ashes tour.


And note, once again, that I'm not saying I'm in favour of the school's policy, as I don't know the circumstances well enough. But the suggestion that the flag is the flag and people might be 'troubled' that it was ever seen as antagonistic is silly, and needs to be called as such.

 Da Boss wrote:
Ouze: Jingoism is an even more negative extension of the already negative trait of patriotism.

I am generally against dividing the world up into countries. Let me give you an example from my lessons.

I was teaching Global Warming (contentious already, but let's leave that debate for another day) and was talking about global carbon output. I was also talking about the current explosion in population and how the increasing population of the world would result in escalating outputs, and how this presented a real problem with regard to controlling it.

One of the kids said "Well, why don't we just nuke India and China. They've got the most people and the fastest expanding population."

I said "Hang on, why pick those areas?"
He said "Those are the countries with the largest populations!"
I said "Why should it matter what country the people live in?"
The kids were really thrown sideways when we started to discuss the idea that deciding things like that based on "countries" made no particular sense (aside from the fact that nuking anywhere to kill off a couple of billion people is a terrible idea anyhow, but he was being a controversial teenager.)
I then pointed out that the most efficient thing to do, if we're killing people to lower carbon output, would be to destroy the US and Western Europe, as we use far more per head of population than people in "those countries".

But the entire idea of countries puts the world into an "Us vs. Them" paradigm, and I think that is inherently harmful. I think we have to start thinking globally or we're never going to solve some of the problems we will face in the coming decades.

Edit: And I understand the various counter arguments about countries being important as administrative units/cultural blocs/ tradition etc etc etc.

Just to give my idea of a patriotism/nationalism which is a positive one let me just tell you my own way of thinking of what it is.

It's principles are:

All people should have a right to a homecountry

All people should have the right to a culture and a own language

All people should respect these rights

Of course these principles are often mixed with other ideologies which give various results. By the way are you Da boss German?

On the note on sweden there are quite many examples on how the overly liberal government has some bad effects. For example they often take too many refugees and do not fuse them to the society very well. This has caused the ghetto effect in malmo and in some cases ambulances have to have police escorts because ambulances are often attacked. Also they sometimes just love to do "positive" racism for the sake of it: http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/beviset-s-lovar-att-samarbeta-med-smr/ ,I recommend using google translator.

I'm Irish. My attitude towards patriotism is linked strongly to growing up in a republican area of Ireland and seeing how every problem was blamed on the British, and how patriotism allowed an idealised imaginary version of Ireland to be constructed, allowing us to all feel better about what a clusterfeth the country is in some ways.

I know they have issues with ghettos in Sweden, but they have those problems in every wealthy nation - Germany for example has issues with Turkish immigrants not integrating well. They also have some of the happiest people in the world and by and large a very healthy, functioning country.

Though, coming from a country cursed with widespread emigration, I always grin bitterly at people complaining about immigration. Immigration means you have it good- otherwise people would stay put.

Edit: And on the subject of language, it is something I think about a lot. My ability to speak Irish is degrading away due to living away from home for so long. Despite the language being effectively useless due to being spoken by so few people, it makes me sad. By not being patriotic, I don't mean to say that I wish to do away with cultural identity or homogenise all people, but more to stop seeing things in an us vs. them competition based on national borders. We all share the same planet with the same resources. We need to co-operate and encourage understanding and dialogue.

 Da Boss wrote:
I'm Irish. My attitude towards patriotism is linked strongly to growing up in a republican area of Ireland and seeing how every problem was blamed on the British, and how patriotism allowed an idealised imaginary version of Ireland to be constructed, allowing us to all feel better about what a clusterfeth the country is in some ways.

I know they have issues with ghettos in Sweden, but they have those problems in every wealthy nation - Germany for example has issues with Turkish immigrants not integrating well. They also have some of the happiest people in the world and by and large a very healthy, functioning country.

Though, coming from a country cursed with widespread emigration, I always grin bitterly at people complaining about immigration. Immigration means you have it good- otherwise people would stay put.

Edit: And on the subject of language, it is something I think about a lot. My ability to speak Irish is degrading away due to living away from home for so long. Despite the language being effectively useless due to being spoken by so few people, it makes me sad. By not being patriotic, I don't mean to say that I wish to do away with cultural identity or homogenise all people, but more to stop seeing things in an us vs. them competition based on national borders. We all share the same planet with the same resources. We need to co-operate and encourage understanding and dialogue.

For the other bits I agree with except the bit that ghettos are inevitable. Where I come from (Finnland) we are rather wealthy, but the closest thing to a ghetto that we have is Vuosaari and it is quite normal and safe still.

 Da Boss wrote:
I'm Irish. My attitude towards patriotism is linked strongly to growing up in a republican area of Ireland and seeing how every problem was blamed on the British, and how patriotism allowed an idealised imaginary version of Ireland to be constructed, allowing us to all feel better about what a clusterfeth the country is in some ways.

And I grew up in the North, in a very Republican area. But I was brought up in a manner that was not sectarian. Each person should be permitted to celebrate their own culture. This ruling does not do that in my opinion. If someone is wearing a patriotic article of clothing that should be fine. If that person's conduct is provocative however then we should look at addressing that where necessary.

 Da Boss wrote:
Though, coming from a country cursed with widespread emigration, I always grin bitterly at people complaining about immigration. Immigration means you have it good- otherwise people would stay put.

Edit: And on the subject of language, it is something I think about a lot. My ability to speak Irish is degrading away due to living away from home for so long. Despite the language being effectively useless due to being spoken by so few people, it makes me sad. By not being patriotic, I don't mean to say that I wish to do away with cultural identity or homogenise all people, but more to stop seeing things in an us vs. them competition based on national borders. We all share the same planet with the same resources. We need to co-operate and encourage understanding and dialogue.

This is a misrepresentation for the most part. People in the US complain about illegal immigration. Pro-amnesty groups muddy the water by refusing to distinguish between legal and illegal immigration, thus painting a false picture.

 Jacobshepard wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Wasnt it proven the boys where doing it to antagonize those celebrating Cinco De mayo

Probably part of the "past problems gave school officials sufficient and justifiable reasons for their actions" that is mentioned in the article, though it would be nice if they said more about what those past problems were.

I looked up the story online, there's a lot more to it than just the article above talks about. I've already seen one post on this thread that immediately lays the responsibility on the students wearing the shirts, and indeed the article at first sounded to me like it was a bunch of students just seeking attention. However it's much more interesting that that. There had been problems in the past where students who wore U.S. flag shirts were threatened by Hispanic students and that this policy was enacted in order to protect the flag wearing students from before mentioned Hispanic students. It's what's called a "Heckler's Veto." The authority in this case is curtailing the rights of an acting party (students) to protect them from the response of the reacting party (the Hispanic students who made threats possibly carrying out their threats, or at the very least causing emotional harm through their threats).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/02/27/not-safe-to-display-american-flag-in-american-high-school/

I've searched around through a few other articles and found nothing to contradict this one. I'm no authority on this case, so if somebody else has differing information I would gladly tell them to add their voice to the discussion.

Huh, So victim blaming. But I can see where they are coming from. You cant protect students all the time, so try to get them to stop the behavior that causes them t get their asses kicked. That doesnt make it right

Good notes.
I agree that the school had the authority to do so.

I also firmly believe everyone in charge of making the decision should be fired.

Read the case and welcome to California.

This whole case is very foreign to me - I don't understand the thought process of being upset by someone wearing the flag of the country both parties live in.

Anyone who feels antagonized by their own county's flag has the devine right to "GTFO". That way it will no longer be their country's flag and they can feel antogonized all they want.

 gossipmeng wrote:
This whole case is very foreign to me - I don't understand the thought process of being upset by someone wearing the flag of the country both parties live in.

Anyone who feels antagonized by their own county's flag has the devine right to "GTFO". That way it will no longer be their country's flag and they can feel antogonized all they want.

It sounds like they are starting to equate the U.S. flag with the Confederate flag over there. A good question to ask here is how many students in that school are allowed to wear clothing sporting the Mexican flag.

All that being said, there are approved ways to display the flag, and I don't think casual wear is one of them.

They should instead wear a shirt MADE from an American flag sewn in such a way that the act of turning the shirt inside out results in inverting the flag.


What?

 daedalus wrote:
They should instead wear a shirt MADE from an American flag sewn in such a way that the act of turning the shirt inside out results in inverting the flag.


What?

 Ouze wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Do they realize that Cinco de Mayo isn't just celebrated by "illegal aliens"?

Do they realize its NOT A US HOLIDAY.

Neither is St. Patrick's day; make sure you screech that at everyone you see wearing green in a few weeks.

Not sure you can equate the two...

If you wore your red, white and blue shirt on St. Paddy's day, no one gives a gak.

I will say, that this does put the school officials in an awkward position.

I'd rather, you know... teach these kids that it's okay to wear the red, white and blues on cinco de mayo. Just like it's okay for latinos (or anyone else for that matter) to where mexican colors during the 4th of July.

If you simply wore an American flag shirt on St. Patricks day then nobody would care. If you were making a point of wearing an American flag shirt on St. Patricks day to imply that the Irish aren't American then people would care.

 whembly wrote:

 Ouze wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Do they realize that Cinco de Mayo isn't just celebrated by "illegal aliens"?

Do they realize its NOT A US HOLIDAY.

Neither is St. Patrick's day; make sure you screech that at everyone you see wearing green in a few weeks.

Not sure you can equate the two...

If you wore your red, white and blue shirt on St. Paddy's day, no one gives a gak.

I will say, that this does put the school officials in an awkward position.

Generally speaking, no one gives a gak if you wear a flag on Cinco De Mayo either. This isn't some broad banning of the flag or sweeping change, this is a fairly isolated incident in a specific area dealing with a problem in their community. It also isn't a banning of the shirt at all times, but that one day, and only to avoid having to call ambulances and police to the school. I can't imagine that the school is happy about this, and as I stated earlier it sounds like this is indicative of a larger problem the entire community is dealing with. I would venture that the vast majority of the students couldn't care less and just want to go to be students, but a handful of donkey-caves on both sides are creating issues. You have one set purposefully being antagonistic to the other and the other side being idiots about something that isn't even celebrated in the heritage they speak of. Is it stupid? Yes, but people often are.

It would probably be more like an Orangeman trying to provoke people on St. Patrick's Day, I would think.