Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

In the way some people are reasoning here, we could roll all codices in C:SM because everything is just marines with different stats and different wargear.
Grey Hunters? Tac marines with different stats and wargear.
Grey Knights? Just marines with different stats and wargear.
Tau Fire Warriors? Tac Marines with different stats and wargear.
Really, that is no way to be reasoning. If it has a different name, different stats and different wargear, it is a unique unit, and not a C:SM unit with different stats and wargear.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
11] Rune Priest: Multiple Unique Pieces of Wargear and adding the ability to take the Saga’s.
12] Wolf Priest: Multiple Unique Pieces of Wargear and adding the ability to take the Saga’s.
13] Iron Priest: Multiple Unique Pieces of Wargear and adding the ability to take the Saga’s.
14] Wolf Lord: Multiple Unique Pieces of Wargear and adding the ability to take the Saga’s.
15] Wolf Guard Battle Leader: Multiple Unique Pieces of Wargear and adding the ability to take the Saga’s.

I'm going to have to call you out on these. They are still basically the Librarian, Chaplain, Tech Priest, etc. A few minor variations isn't surprising. It's just what codices do to differentiate themselves but even then. It's sjust a few wargear choices and then some saga chart.

The rest I concur although I almost would like to see the Fenresian wolves and TWC combined.


I'm simply arguing a point. Personal opinion, if GW knew how to merge codices or their supplements weren't so expensive and so just not worth it, I would say yeah! Roll them in! Buuuuuut GW is idiotic and ruined BT, releases supplements for companies, and is about to release a supplement for some no-name recent warband of renegades that has almost no fluff despite chaos constantly complaining about getting supplements to either represent the legions (+ Corsairs) or to represent the 4 gods.

Runic Armor
Wolf Tooth Necklace
Wolf Tail Talisman
Rune Priest: Chooser of Slain, Rune Staff
Iron Priest: TWC, Cyberwolves
Wolf Lord/Wolf Guard Battle Leader: TWC, Fenrisial Wolves, Belt of Rus, Wolf Claws, MotW

First of all, this implies you get to keep everything. Even in my optimal beliefs if GW was perfect, SW would lose a few excess details. To be honest I have no clue what runic armor does. Left my codices at home The 5+ invuln from the talisman is just a 5+ deny the witch that many armies basically get anyways, the neclace is a bit unique always hitting on a 3+ although a really minor factor. Rune Staff is likely going to become a very standard staff soon, no clue about the chooser of slain, iron priests twc and wolves are very reminescent of biker option, etc. These are etc items that honestly every founding chapter should have access to.

In terms of pricing, yet again, it really depends. In terms of GW, adding 3 more armies really isn't that drastic of a thing. Heck, Chaos already has to deal with being one codex and always has been. Admittedly, GW will buff the price but they love to price gouge anyways. I'm against it simply because GW WILL ruin it and mess up.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
In the way some people are reasoning here, we could roll all codices in C:SM because everything is just marines with different stats and different wargear.
Grey Hunters? Tac marines with different stats and wargear.
Grey Knights? Just marines with different stats and wargear.
Tau Fire Warriors? Tac Marines with different stats and wargear.
Really, that is no way to be reasoning. If it has a different name, different stats and different wargear, it is a unique unit, and not a C:SM unit with different stats and wargear.

Actually, Grey Hunters are exactly like Tac Marines with a Chapter Tactics worth of extra special rules (Counter-Attack and Acute Senses) and a bonus CCW that could be a Tac Squad option CSM style.

I am very much opposed to rolling any marine variant codices into the main book for one reason: The way Games Workshop prices supplements.

Basically, Games Workshop charges Codex prices for their supplements. This would mean that a Codex+Supplement system would charge Space Wolf players double for the same amount of book. In addition, the poor wolf players would be paying for a lot of crap they don't even use.

In other words, Codex: Space Wolves is basically a supplement to Codex: Space Marines. Its just that you dont have to pay for the other book.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I am very much opposed to rolling any marine variant codices into the main book for one reason: The way Games Workshop prices supplements.

Basically, Games Workshop charges Codex prices for their supplements. This would mean that a Codex+Supplement system would charge Space Wolf players double for the same amount of book. In addition, the poor wolf players would be paying for a lot of crap they don't even use.

In other words, Codex: Space Wolves is basically a supplement to Codex: Space Marines. Its just that you dont have to pay for the other book.

Basically this

 StarTrotter wrote:
In terms of pricing, yet again, it really depends. In terms of GW, adding 3 more armies really isn't that drastic of a thing. Heck, Chaos already has to deal with being one codex and always has been. Admittedly, GW will buff the price but they love to price gouge anyways. I'm against it simply because GW WILL ruin it and mess up.

That and yes it would Ruin the Space Wolves like the Black Templar Players say.

If the Ultramarines are the poster-boys for what it means to be a Codex-Adherent Space Marine, then only Chapters that are similar to them (to a greater or lesser extent) should go into C:SM. If you are the opposites of the UM, you should not.

 Psienesis wrote:
If the Ultramarines are the poster-boys for what it means to be a Codex-Adherent Space Marine, then only Chapters that are similar to them (to a greater or lesser extent) should go into C:SM. If you are the opposites of the UM, you should not.

So...everyone but SW then?

That's pretty much telling everyone but SW they should go back in but you get to keep your unique book 'because'.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
If the Ultramarines are the poster-boys for what it means to be a Codex-Adherent Space Marine, then only Chapters that are similar to them (to a greater or lesser extent) should go into C:SM. If you are the opposites of the UM, you should not.

So...everyone but SW then?

And Templars, but the cat's out of the bag for that one.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
In the way some people are reasoning here, we could roll all codices in C:SM because everything is just marines with different stats and different wargear.
Grey Hunters? Tac marines with different stats and wargear.
Grey Knights? Just marines with different stats and wargear.
Tau Fire Warriors? Tac Marines with different stats and wargear.
Really, that is no way to be reasoning. If it has a different name, different stats and different wargear, it is a unique unit, and not a C:SM unit with different stats and wargear.

If any of sm codex that is outside of codex:SM gets rolled into codex SM, they will lose a lot of the flavor... do a lot of the people who don't ply the codex (SW, BA, DA) care? no, a marine is a marine to them... just like it matters who is imperial and who isn't...

armies are armies, the ones that have their own codex, more power to em, I hope hey get to keep em, and i hope there are more in time.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
If the Ultramarines are the poster-boys for what it means to be a Codex-Adherent Space Marine, then only Chapters that are similar to them (to a greater or lesser extent) should go into C:SM. If you are the opposites of the UM, you should not.

So...everyone but SW then?

That's pretty much telling everyone but SW they should go back in but you get to keep your unique book 'because'.

BT should never have been rolled in and there should never be any thought of rolling in BA or DA either

Yes.

As per BA, much of the allegedly 'irreconcilably different' units are once more just slight variations of existing units. People also mistake having a slew of slightly different units with different names as being 'unique' or having different playstyle, when in reality, the unit choices you make in army selection and your paint job/modelling will have a far greater impact in having a unique looking and playing army that matches the theme.

Loyalist marines in one book, traitors in another with fleshed out legion rules.

Now, of course it won't happen because GW enjoys money.

 Blacksails wrote:


Now, of course it won't happen because GW enjoys money.

who doesn't?

Brother Weasel wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:


Now, of course it won't happen because GW enjoys money.

who doesn't?

Yeah, and really, how easy is it to copy paste most of the units from one book and wargear options to another, add wolf to a bunch of the names, and charge people $60+ to play an entirely different and unique codex like every other marine chapter.

Really, its like printing money.

so it's settled, GW won't roll them in, because there is no reason for them to do so.

Brother Weasel wrote:
so it's settled, GW won't roll them in, because there is no reason for them to do so.

Well yeah, but this thread is hypothetical, and isn't concerned with what GW would do to pad its bottom line. Its a discussion from a gameplay/mechanical perspective.

If variant Marine Codices is effectively a license to print money, why did GW fold C:BT? It doesn't seem to hold up.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
If variant Marine Codices is effectively a license to print money, why did GW fold C:BT? It doesn't seem to hold up.

Eh, could have something to do with less dedicated models, or maybe a lack of a desire to make more specific BT only models.

GW confuses me too.

Yeah, if anything they should have released a whole new codex with made up units to make people buy more models.

Codex Salamanders! Mark of the Dragon. Special models riding dragons and salamanders!

The reason Templars where rolled, was the things that made them unique when the codex was printed, where given to nearly everyone.

Sure wolves can be rolled in, but I think it would be better to have them on their own. Plus the price for the "Codex: All the Space Marines" would be ridiculous as Anpu42 said

 Blacksails wrote:

Brother Weasel wrote:
so it's settled, GW won't roll them in, because there is no reason for them to do so.

Well yeah, but this thread is hypothetical, and isn't concerned with what GW would do to pad its bottom line. Its a discussion from a gameplay/mechanical perspective.

Oh yea...

simply put if you keep every unit as is diffrent, adding those to the SM dex will cause the main codex to be cluttered with foot notes and options and restrictions...

that or they remove the things that make them diffrent, in which case the argument isn't that sw (ba) should be rolled, but pretty much eliminated in all but color.

 FirePainter wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
1] Wolf Guard Veteran +1
2] Grey Hunters Tactical marines +1
3] Blood claws assault marines (more numbers less skill) 0
4] Swift Claws bikers -1
5] Wolf Scouts scouts +1 (DA used to have this as well but without the weapon selection)
6] Swiftclaws Repeat
7] Skyclaws assault marines -1
8] TWC bikers +1
9] Fenresian Wolves Unique
10] Lone Wolves unique version of veterans
11] Long Fangs Devs +1
12] Rune Priest Librarian +1
13] Wolf Priest are these even used?
14] Iron Priest tech marine (again are these even used?)
15] Wolf Lord captain +1
16] Wolf Guard Battle Leader Sergeant +1
17] Space Wolf Contemptnor Dread [IA] don't all chapters have these?

So I would give you 2 truely unique units and a bunch of vanilla marines +1

I don't have a dog in this hunt. I prefer more variation than less. I like the Space Wolves having their own codex.

However, if I am being completely objective here, Fire Painter is spot on.

They'd be turbo easy, again, a couple pages of rules could manage them. Hell that's exactly what they did in 3E.

They've got exactly 2 truly unique units, the Wolf cavalry and fenrisian wolves, everything else is wargear/USR differences.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
If the Ultramarines are the poster-boys for what it means to be a Codex-Adherent Space Marine, then only Chapters that are similar to them (to a greater or lesser extent) should go into C:SM. If you are the opposites of the UM, you should not.

So...everyone but SW then?

That's pretty much telling everyone but SW they should go back in but you get to keep your unique book 'because'.

There are lots of Chapters currently appearing in their own Codices that are not Codex-adherent. There should be 2 books: Codex Adherent and Not.

I don't think these SW players realise that it would be as easy if not easier into C:SM. A lot of their stuff is just renamed and moved around (see things like swiftclaws or scouts). Alot of the things theyare debating couldnt be rolled in are just marines+1 I.e. wolf guard are just terminator squads and veterans rolled into one. As for being able to join other squads like a pseudo sergeant, just give the sergeant of a marine squad acces to more wargear with the SW CT. Long Fangs? Basically Devs with split fire. Rune Priest? A libby with fancy wargear. I think the Belt of Russ was mentioned as fancy wargear? Its just a iron halo renamed. As for Sagas they can be dropped like vows for BT to avoid more cramming. The only real unique things are TWC and Fenrisian Wolves if special characters aren't included.

One of the main arguments (aside from the super special, irreplaceable units everywhere) is that even if they were rolled in, it would take dozens and dozens of pages which would make the book too big.

Then again, I don't see a reason they need any more fluff in a combined codex than any of the other 1st founding legions. Maybe I'm just heartless, but the codex doesn't need to cover every single battle and the deeds of every single member in great detail.

Once more, plenty of other well established chapters function just fine in C:SM, and I see no reason why SW (or DA, or BA) wouldn't work just fine as well.

They could be rolled in to the Space Marines, it doesn't really make sense though. I don't want them to be rolled in to a single book though, to keep their current feel they'd have far too many exceptions and end up taking a large chunk of the codex just to explain all the exceptions and special rules.

I also don't like an exception based system. I don't want "grey hunters are blah except" "wolf guard are blah except" "wolf priests are blah except". I'd rather just have unit entries for the different units instead.

Honestly, all armies could be rolled in to a single big book. At this stage most codices are just copy/paste jobs of previous codices with a bit of new content. I think you could explain all the rules for all armies in ~100 pages.

 A GumyBear wrote:
I don't think these SW players realise that it would be as easy if not easier into C:SM. A lot of their stuff is just renamed and moved around (see things like swiftclaws or scouts). Alot of the things theyare debating couldnt be rolled in are just marines+1 I.e. wolf guard are just terminator squads and veterans rolled into one. As for being able to join other squads like a pseudo sergeant, just give the sergeant of a marine squad acces to more wargear with the SW CT. Long Fangs? Basically Devs with split fire. Rune Priest? A libby with fancy wargear. I think the Belt of Russ was mentioned as fancy wargear? Its just a iron halo renamed. As for Sagas they can be dropped like vows for BT to avoid more cramming. The only real unique things are TWC and Fenrisian Wolves if special characters aren't included.

Let's just go over the things you mentioned...
Scouts are completely different. Aside from the fluff differences, or scouts have different stats, wargear options, and points cost. Swiftclaws (And, really, anything with -claws in the name) also have completely different points costs, unit sizes (You can't take Assault Marines in 15 man squads), and stats.
Wolf Guard and your Veterans solution is terrible. Wolf Guard aren't 'Just Terminators and Veterans rolled into one.' They can take gear that neither Veterans nor Terminators can take, have different points costs, a minimum squad size of three instead of 5, they can take Drop Pods, they *can't* deep strike in Terminator Armor, etc. As for just giving the sergeant more wargear options... Would you give EVERY Veteran the ability to take CMLs, or completely get rid of that? Same with Assault Cannons. Not to mention, when you buy a Wolf Guard to attach to a squad currently, it changes the Grey Hunter's squad composition. They can't get their second Special Weapon and a Transport if they want a Veteran.
Long Fangs are exactly like Devestators! Except for Split Fire, squad sizes, their Captain's wargear options, the amount of Heavy Weapons that they can take, the cost of their Heavy Weapons, and the fact that they can't take additional bodies. Other than that, completely identical! (Yes, that was sarcasm.)
Rune Priests are not 'Libbys with fancy wargear.' They have different psychic powers, access to different charts, different stats, and different wargear. Oh, and different fluff, but that applies to all of the SW units.
(The Belt of Russ is pretty much an Iron Halo, I'll give you that.)


Let's be honest. If you want the Space Wolf codex to be incorporated into the Space Marine codex, you really just don't like Space Wolves and want to stick it to them. Merging them with the Space Marine codex is the next closest thing to completely and utterly getting rid of them. (Unless the Space Marine codex had a good twenty or thirty pages (Minimum) dedicated to explaining the differences and rules for Space Wolves.) So many unique things would be dropped, they would for all intents and purposes cease to exist.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
They could be rolled in to the Space Marines, it doesn't really make sense though. I don't want them to be rolled in to a single book though, to keep their current feel they'd have far too many exceptions and end up taking a large chunk of the codex just to explain all the exceptions and special rules.

That's the thing though, they don't need all those exceptions and special rules. You could build a perfectly thematic Space Wolves army using C:SM by using appropriate units, modelling and painting them like Space Wolves, and calling them by their fluff names if you so desire.

You don't need a hundred minute different to have a special marine chapter. A CT, a few SCs and maybe a unique unit is all you've ever needed to capture a chapter. The rest comes down to list construction and painting/modelling.