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Yeah, I'm thinking the term.Codex Expansion may be better than supplement for what we are after. The idea that it provides something that can't be played in the standard codex rather than just flavour and style tweaks to the codex is something that's somewhat tricky to get through.

I think something similar in size to the current supplements, but with that alternate missions section and such devoted to rules and units instead. Not quite as much rule material as a normal codex because 75% plus of that is already in the main Codex, but plent of detail on the army specific rules, characters, units and wargear.

Do it, roll em all. 1 maybe 2 special characters per 1st Founding that do the unlocks.

Make 'timeless' supplements that modify the basic statline and equiptment of codex units and add special rules from BRB (wanna change the rules next edition? Keep the names the same and all of your supplements are usable) for all those special snowflake companies.

Short answer:
No

Long answer:
NoOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoo!

Waaaghpower wrote:
(I just recently looked through it. Really? Not even a special character or unique unit?)

Considering that all the 6th ed supplements have been that disappointing, why do we still get surprised by the fact that they're not worth buying?

Not a chance. When you compare them side by side, even after removing the units that are just "marine equivalent in disguise" like the SW libby and chaplain, BA and SW both still have a lot of unique things that would have to be addressed.

Also BA have more codex SC's just barely. 8.5 considering tycho has a "DC tycho" option, compared to the wolves' 8. In response to someone's counting error back on page 1.

Nitpicking aside, both would require mountains of footnotes and asterisks on each option due to special gear options or other rules. In the end, newer players would need a mini codex just to understand what the hell they can actually take from the codex, because it would be a jumbled horrifying mess.

So in the end, absolutely not.

Now if you were to make "space marines compilation codex" with everything organized correctly, each big chapter having its own section for unique rules and wargear and points, etc etc, and had a 300+ page book, then sure.

But in all honesty, I can't say I'd want to pay GW price for that book....it may be....commonly acquired...by other means if you catch my drift.

niv-mizzet wrote:
Also BA have more codex SC's just barely. 8.5 considering tycho has a "DC tycho" option, compared to the wolves' 8. In response to someone's counting error back on page 1.

To be fair, SCs disappear all the time. Wolves could lose Canis (and maybe Lukas) without anyone shedding a tear, and BA could lose Astorath, Gabriel Seth and especially Space Jesus without severely affecting anything... or they could just put their equipment in as relics to allow people to run Gabriel-Seth-in-all-but-name.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
Also BA have more codex SC's just barely. 8.5 considering tycho has a "DC tycho" option, compared to the wolves' 8. In response to someone's counting error back on page 1.

To be fair, SCs disappear all the time. Wolves could lose Canis (and maybe Lukas) without anyone shedding a tear, and BA could lose Astorath, Gabriel Seth and especially Space Jesus without severely affecting anything... or they could just put their equipment in as relics to allow people to run Gabriel-Seth-in-all-but-name.

Name just one Special Character who's been lost in the past five years, who has an official GW model.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
Also BA have more codex SC's just barely. 8.5 considering tycho has a "DC tycho" option, compared to the wolves' 8. In response to someone's counting error back on page 1.

To be fair, SCs disappear all the time. Wolves could lose Canis (and maybe Lukas) without anyone shedding a tear, and BA could lose Astorath, Gabriel Seth and especially Space Jesus without severely affecting anything... or they could just put their equipment in as relics to allow people to run Gabriel-Seth-in-all-but-name.

But muh Astorath red thirst army D:

Many of the players I've known love running seth. And Astorath WOULD be good if DC with jump packs didn't cost 8000 points per model. He still makes for a pretty cool battlefield-wide effect in normal jump squads, IE half are fearless/furious charge, plus the one Asto is in. It's an alternative to running jump priests. It could also work on infiltrating ccw/pistol scout armies.

Aside from seth, imo, they could use some help though, yeah. Or the trash can and allow people to make them a la carte with wargear and rules.

Space wolves third ed codex worked quite well as a stand alone wee book with all the unique space wolf stuff (leman Russ -back in the day, we had these! Grey hunters, blood claws, etc), but referenced, and was linked to the parent space marine codex for all the stuff they shared (rhinos, tanks, etc)

It worked quite well.

Does it make sense to roll them into the parent codex altogether? No, don't think so. But just like blood angels, I think they should use the sm codex as a 'parent codex' and run all the unique stuff in the sw booklet, like in third. Then again, In third, even with this format, a huge amount of the space wolf options, roster, equipment, weapons, special rule and characters were unique to them, and unlike the dark angels and to a slightly lesser extent the blood angels, a 'see codex space marine for unit x profile' was the exception, rather than the rule for the space wolves.

And to be fair, while a lot of sw stuff is a reimagining of options already there in codex sm, it's rebranded, and repackaged. Some things are just in completely different places. Wolf priests are chaplain/apothecary hybrids for example - I'd not like to see the mess it would take in terms of writing it into the sm codex to get that right- it's a real pain in the bum. I think the sw options are sufficiently different enough that it would just be too bloody awkward to try and write in a couple of lines of options in every relevant unit profile to turn generic sm options into sw options (you'd double the length of the unit profile section of the book, and make it a pain in the backside for everyone else, as well as clutter up the whole thing - no, better to have their own stuff in stand alone form, even just for the sheer bloody practicality of it.

I don't really see the point in making SW a supplement to C:SM. If you're going to the effort of making them their own book, you might as well just put all the rules in there you need, since the only carry over units will be tanks and land speeders.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
Also BA have more codex SC's just barely. 8.5 considering tycho has a "DC tycho" option, compared to the wolves' 8. In response to someone's counting error back on page 1.

To be fair, SCs disappear all the time. Wolves could lose Canis (and maybe Lukas) without anyone shedding a tear, and BA could lose Astorath, Gabriel Seth and especially Space Jesus without severely affecting anything... or they could just put their equipment in as relics to allow people to run Gabriel-Seth-in-all-but-name.

Name just one Special Character who's been lost in the past five years, who has an official GW model.

Had to throw in that "official GW model" bit, cuz that covers the lost Tyranid characters. Plus more than 5 years out, BA lost Moriar the Chosen. Oh, and there's Doomrider too. The Red Terror was gone for 2 editions before being shoehorned into the newest Nid book (and being made useless I might add). So yeah, maybe not "all the time" special characters disappear, but it's not unprecedented. With the listed SCs I mentioned as expendable, the models can easily be used to represent other units anyway.

Grey Hunters have the same stats but different options. No combat squads or heavy weapons, even since their first codex in 2nd edition they haven't had the same options. They also have different base equipment.

Blood claws are -1Ws, -1Bs, they could be Assault Marines, but by default they are troops on foot, not Assault Marines, so you'd have to create another entry for them. Also the berserk charge/headstrong.

Wolf Scouts are different because the Chapter structure is different. You could make them the same as SM scouts, but you won't be making any SW players happy.

Long Fangs are +1Ld.

Fenrisian Wolves are a unique unit.

TWC are a unique unit. You could call them bikers but that would be stupid, they are cavalry.

Bikers and Assault marines would need -1 Ws and Bs, also berserk charge/headstrong.

Wolf Guard behave differently to the SM equivalents. You could make them the same, but you won't be making any SW players happy.

Space Wolves currently have 8 special characters all of which have models.

Could you fit all that in a Space Marine codex? Sure... but I think it's enough differences to warrant their own codex.

Could you simplify them to be regular Space Marines? Sure... but you'll not be making Space Wolf players happy, so it's hardly worth doing just to consolidate some rules IMO.

If SW have had their own Codex for the past 20 years, I might see the advantage of not splitting them off to have their own Codex. But they are already a unique codex and have been for a very long time.

This is admittedly a bit tricker than BA in that some units have actual statline modifications, and the wolves and wolf riders are actually separate models. The later probably need to be their own entry (rule of thumb, if it is a separate model, than a separate entry is justified, if it is just an existing model with rules modifications, then it can probably be reduced to an upgrade option). Still, much of this is doable: chapter structure modifications are just force org modifications, and those are already done in many codices. Special characters can be condensed down. Foot versus jet pack assault marines can be made into the same entry by just making the jetback and upgrade, and some modifications, like the Longfand Ld change, probably have minimal effect on how the unit plays.

If you rolled SW, BA, and DA into the marine codex, this is what would take. Specifically, this is the bare minimum that would need to added.

2 pages of fluff for BA
2 pages of fluff for DA
2 pages of fluff for SW
3 pages of photos of the miniatures from each of these chapters
1 page for Dante
1 page for Mephiston
1 page for the sanguinor
1 page for Astorath
1 page for Tycho
1 page for Corbulo
1 page for the furioso dreadnought
1 page for the death company
1 page for Azrael
1 page for Ezekiel
1 page for Belial
1 page for Asmodai
1 page for Deathwing Terminators
1 page for Ravenwing bikes
1 page for Logan Grimnar
1 page for Njal
1 page for Canis
1 page for Ragnar
1 page for Ulrik
1 page for TWC
about 6 pages for the added unit profiles.

Added up, this 35 more pages. The price for adding 72 pages to the $8.50. So if a giant space marine codex actually came out, it would probably be around $62.50.

I couple of observations here. For starters, you have 15 pages of special characters. This is making up nearly half your page count. My opinion on a lot of these special characters is that they exist to justify the existing of the specialist codices, rather than being something that is truly needed for the subfactions. Even if we do insist every special character must be retained, it is quite possible to fit 4 of them to a page (and probably do the same with some C:SM special characters to make more room), as is done with The Eight in the Farsight supplement. Pick 1-2 of these character from each chapter to be an iconic character with a full page devoted to it, and then condensed or eliminate the rest.

Unit like Deathwing Terminators and Ravenwing Bikes can are just modifications to Terminators and Bikes respectively, and can be condensed into those entries.

You also have 3 pages of painting per faction and 2 of fluff per faction. 3 pages devoted to each faction seems like a lot, from what I can recall subfactions in other army books only get a page, maybe two, devoted to painting. Similarly, fluff could probably be reduced to a page each.

You could probably reduce the page count as follows: 5 pages to special characters (3 full pages entries, 3 pages of condensed entries), 3 pages to fluff, 5 pages to painting(give each faction a page and a half), condense the furioso dread, death company, terminators and bikes, which might add a single page, and add 4 pages for unique unit entries (wolves, wolf riders, the DA flyer, the oversized DA speeder), and one more for condensing other unit options that weren't mentioned. That brings us up to 19. Pull the character condensing trick on some C:SM special characters, say at least 4 of them, which will save us three pages, and the page count is now down to a modest 16 (with the front and the back of the page being counted as two separate pages, thus only 8 additional sheet of paper). This seems reasonable and doable.

All the Space Wolf special characters have models. These models all cost a fair bit more than their generic counterparts. I own most of them.
If all of my expensive IC models were axed down to a one-line blurb or removed entirely, I would be mad as hell.

Waaaghpower wrote:
All the Space Wolf special characters have models. These models all cost a fair bit more than their generic counterparts. I own most of them.
If all of my expensive IC models were axed down to a one-line blurb or removed entirely, I would be mad as hell.

I have similar thought with my BA.

niv-mizzet wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
All the Space Wolf special characters have models. These models all cost a fair bit more than their generic counterparts. I own most of them.
If all of my expensive IC models were axed down to a one-line blurb or removed entirely, I would be mad as hell.

I have similar thought with my BA.

I own all of the Space Wolf characters (including both versions of Njal) and I'd probably be annoyed if any were cut... hell, I was annoyed that the Leman Russ Exterminator was removed from the 5th ed book, and I didn't even own one. But I'm just saying that if they were going to condense the books into one Codex, then they would probably trim the fat in the form of some of our less-useful characters, and that the models wouldn't be "garbage" after such a move.

Roll all space marines into the same codex and be done with it. Personally, this "they had their own codex" excuse doesn't make any sense to me. Even the whole "different units" excuse doesn't make any sense. Any special rules/variants can be addressed the same way chapter tactics were implemented.

"Any unit with the Space wolves chapter tactics may throw the word 'wolf' in front or behind of it's title to gain a +1 on weapon Str."

Example: Tactical >WOLF< Marines

See. Totally doable.

Inkubas wrote:
Roll all space marines into the same codex and be done with it. Personally, this "they had their own codex" excuse doesn't make any sense to me. Even the whole "different units" excuse doesn't make any sense. Any special rules/variants can be addressed the same way chapter tactics were implemented.

"Any unit with the Space wolves chapter tactics may throw the word 'wolf' in front or behind of it's title to gain a +1 on weapon Str."

Example: Tactical >WOLF< Marines

See. Totally doable.

Doable. Stupid, but doable.

 Anpu42 wrote:

11] Rune Priest: Multiple Unique Pieces of Wargear and adding the ability to take the Saga’s.
12] Wolf Priest: Multiple Unique Pieces of Wargear and adding the ability to take the Saga’s.
13] Iron Priest: Multiple Unique Pieces of Wargear and adding the ability to take the Saga’s.
14] Wolf Lord: Multiple Unique Pieces of Wargear and adding the ability to take the Saga’s.
15] Wolf Guard Battle Leader: Multiple Unique Pieces of Wargear and adding the ability to take the Saga’s.

BA Captain can take Infernus pistols. Let's give them a new weapon that is basicly a rending Chainsword and give it some boring name like "Bloodblade".
Let's rename the Captain as Blood Lord.

"No way, it's a completely unique unit! We can't be rolled into C:SM!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Inkubas wrote:
Roll all space marines into the same codex and be done with it. Personally, this "they had their own codex" excuse doesn't make any sense to me. Even the whole "different units" excuse doesn't make any sense. Any special rules/variants can be addressed the same way chapter tactics were implemented.

"Any unit with the Space wolves chapter tactics may throw the word 'wolf' in front or behind of it's title to gain a +1 on weapon Str."

Example: Tactical >WOLF< Marines

See. Totally doable.

Doable. Stupid, but doable.

This.

Everyone who says that Space Wolves could easily be rolled into the Space Marine codex without losing anything important or taking up a ton of space has clearly never read the Space Wolf codex. You would have to get rid of half a dozen unique characters and vaporise a dozen or more at least semi-unique (Different stats and/or wargear) units just to get it down to a reasonable size, and even then the Space Wolves would take up more room than most of the other chapters combined.
Assuming that our 'Chapter Tactics' are what gives Acute Senses and Counter-Attack, (Which is about the same power level as the other Chapter Tactics), we've still got 3 or 4 differences in every single unit, minimum, barring vehicles.
Our 'Captains' have 13 unique pieces of wargear and options available to them. (Not counting anything which has an identical SM counterpart.)
Our Psykers have seven unique powers, different stats, access to Biomancy, different force weapons, and different special rules.
Our scouts have very different stats. Same with our assault, jump pack, and biker units.
Our basic troops are one of the most similar units available, and even they have several unique pieces of wargear, different base equipment, no captains, and different upgrade weapons.

I could go on with nearly every unit available. You'd either have to axe a half dozen or more options PER UNIT and change almost every model's stat-line in order to get them to fit in any kind of Space Marine book.

IMO the best thing GW could do with codices is simplify their format so all the rules are in 1 or 2 places.

I think it's absolutely moronic that they've gone back to having a wargear list separate to the army list (that's the way they did it in 2nd edition). It further spreads rules out.

We have the army list in the back of the book which tells you how to construct an army, oh but that just has points values and options, need to flip back to the entry earlier in the book to see the special rules. Oh but now you want to see what the weapons do, better flip to another section of the book. Oh, now you want to give the unit an upgrade weapon, better flip to another section of the book to find out how many points that costs. But wait, what was that army wide special rule this unit has? Better flip to another section of the book to find out. Oh and this unit can take some special non-weapon upgrades, better flip to another section of the book to find out what those do.

Once GW figures out how to write rules that aren't so convoluted and aren't strewn through half a dozen places in the army book, then maybe we can start talking about consolidating actual codices together.

Honestly, I'd be more than happy if all armies were in a single book. Maybe divide it in to a couple of books. Then give us separate fluff books.

But as it is now, no, Space Wolves don't even follow the astartes structure, they can have their own book.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Everyone who says that Space Wolves could easily be rolled into the Space Marine codex without losing anything important or taking up a ton of space has clearly never read the Space Wolf codex.

Anyone making such a statement clearly hasn't read the thread, which is illustrated by the person in question then going on to rehash arguments that we've already had in the thread.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Everyone who says that Space Wolves could easily be rolled into the Space Marine codex without losing anything important or taking up a ton of space has clearly never read the Space Wolf codex.

Anyone making such a statement clearly hasn't read the thread, which is illustrated by the person in question then going on to rehash arguments that we've already had in the thread.

Once people stop insisting that 20+ units can be axed and dozens of uniaue wargear options too wuthout losing the feel and style of the army, I'll stop pointung out how obviously wrong that is.

Waaaghpower wrote:

Once people stop insisting that 20+ units can be axed and dozens of uniaue wargear options too wuthout losing the feel and style of the army, I'll stop pointung out how obviously wrong that is.

Its not wrong, nor is it obvious.

I could throw around baseless accusations and point out alleged facts, like how all the people defending Space Wolves are super fan boys incapable of a rational discussion, but I wouldn't do that.

Instead, we can discuss how every other faction still plays uniquely and according to fluff without a dedicated codex for each and every member of that faction. Every Imperial Guard player can play themed regiments without a specific codex; other marine players can have a great Salamander army without Codex: Salamanders; Orks can run a Speed Freaks force without a dozen special characters and incredibly minor tweaks to wargear options.

None of those factions need a codex with a dozen slightly different (and often better) wargear options or a slew of characters that could be represented through a generic HQ with appropriate wargear.

The same goes for Space Wolves. If they never had a codex to begin with, we wouldn't be having this discussion, but because they were randomly selected to have one, we're stuck with a bunch of units created only to justify their separate codex.

Again why does it matter.
1] There is One extra Codex out there that people will not buy.
2] There is One extra Codex out there that people will not buy.
3] If you are not going to buy it, it will not cost you a dime.
4] If you are going to buy it, it becomes one less Pack of Grey Hunter or Long Fangs for people to not complain about.

As I think that giant dudes in power armour riding giant wolves are slowed as hell and the snowflake character of the wolves can be conveyed by
a) chapter tactics
b) a couple of unique units
and both of this has been done in the C:SM codex, i think that wolves can very well be rolled into the C:SM dex. I bet 3/4 of the differences in the loadout options and squad design have been made to justify another codex in the first place.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Name just one Special Character who's been lost in the past five years, who has an official GW model.

Uriah Jacobus. He came back, though.
Kyrinov. This one came back, and then disappeared again.
Also every other SC for Sisters of Battle except Celestine, but they did not had models.


I am pretty sure Space Wolves cannot be rolled into C:SM because they have too many unique units. For instance, they have the unicorn wolf troop carrier. It is very unique. Well, it has the very same rule as a rhino, except for this very important rule that says only space wolves can enter in it . Its fluff is also totally different : they are exactly like rhino, but hairy (because the space wolves like to put wolves pelts on them) and have pointy teeth (because the space wolves like to hang teeth collar around them. And visually, it is also very different, because it is painted gray. That makes the wolves very different from other chapters.
Also psychic power. Let us not forget psychic powers. Yes, they change at every edition of the rule, yes they are also based on the warp, but they must be different. Because.

 Blacksails wrote:

Instead, we can discuss how every other faction still plays uniquely and according to fluff without a dedicated codex for each and every member of that faction. Every Imperial Guard player can play themed regiments without a specific codex; other marine players can have a great Salamander army without Codex: Salamanders; Orks can run a Speed Freaks force without a dozen special characters and incredibly minor tweaks to wargear options.

None of those factions need a codex with a dozen slightly different (and often better) wargear options or a slew of characters that could be represented through a generic HQ with appropriate wargear.

Except Black Templars, the faction that best illustrates what happens if/when you get folded, doesn't.

Yes and no. I don't think any Space Marine chapter is distinct enough to warrant its own codex, but at the same time there is a significant difference in force structure and army composition in the non-Codex chapters. A combined Space Marine Codex would be sprawling and would result in a massive release anytime it was updated. Ideally, I think a Codex Chapters Codex augmented by minidexes for non Codex chapters would be be the best set up.

Oxayotl: Yes, hyperbole and intentionally wrong comparisons are the best way convey accurate information and opinions.


I agree with Almighty Walrus here We've got a historical example of a codex being folded in, (One which was ancient, had fairly little unique gear, and was hurting for an update.) That Codex was completely shat upon, lost most its best and unique things, and the general consensus is that it was worse than not being updated at all.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/583414.page#6606741