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But those differences make up the SW... you could just have one rulebook and have every army be the same minus the minis...

exaggerating yes, but the SW have differences to the SM, why not let them stay different?

Waaaghpower wrote:


Let's be honest. If you want the Space Wolf codex to be incorporated into the Space Marine codex, you really just don't like Space Wolves and want to stick it to them. Merging them with the Space Marine codex is the next closest thing to completely and utterly getting rid of them. (Unless the Space Marine codex had a good twenty or thirty pages (Minimum) dedicated to explaining the differences and rules for Space Wolves.) So many unique things would be dropped, they would for all intents and purposes cease to exist.

No, that's not it all. I don't have a thing against Space Wolves (besides the absurd wolf names everywhere), it just never made sense to me to have an entirely separate codex for an army that was functionally the same as several others, just with minor rule changes, name changes, and better point costing.

You don't need things like Frost weapons, or skyclaws, or Iron priests listed out exactly. They all have nearly indentical entries in the vanilla book, you'd just have to model them more wolfy.

The bigger part of capturing an armies 'theme' or 'feel' isn't in the minute rules. Its in the list creation, and visual appearance. A sea of grey marines called 'Space Wolves' looks no different than a sea of grey marines called 'Blood Angels'. But a painted Imperial Fist army looks incredibly different (and plays differently based on unit selection) than a painted Salamanders, using the same codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Weasel wrote:
But those differences make up the SW... you could just have one rulebook and have every army be the same minus the minis...

exaggerating yes, but the SW have differences to the SM, why not let them stay different?

They have very minor differences. I'm fine letting them stay the way they are, and I realize that's the way its going to be, but in a thread asking me why I think the way I do, I'll gladly tell you that I think there's no reason for SW to be separate.

 Blacksails wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
They could be rolled in to the Space Marines, it doesn't really make sense though. I don't want them to be rolled in to a single book though, to keep their current feel they'd have far too many exceptions and end up taking a large chunk of the codex just to explain all the exceptions and special rules.

That's the thing though, they don't need all those exceptions and special rules. You could build a perfectly thematic Space Wolves army using C:SM by using appropriate units, modelling and painting them like Space Wolves, and calling them by their fluff names if you so desire.

You don't need a hundred minute different to have a special marine chapter. A CT, a few SCs and maybe a unique unit is all you've ever needed to capture a chapter. The rest comes down to list construction and painting/modelling.

"Could", but that's not really what I want.

40k needs to have the fat trimmed, rolling codices in to one is not where that fat needs to be trimmed though, at least IMO.

Like I said, you could have ALL the rules for ALL armies rolled in to a single book. The way GW writes it's codices is moronic from a rules perspective... they have a fluff section, a section with fluff and some rules, a section with special rules, a section with equipment rules and some more special rules, a picture section with more fluff, another section which restates all the rules and assigns point values and options. If they actually wrote them in a half decent way, the rules for most armies could be reduced to 10 pages or less and compiled in to one big arse book.

BUT, given we don't have that, we have long convoluted codices with fluff and pictures and rules spread out needlessly thin, I'm happy with different chapters having their own codices and different craftworlds having their own codices and all that.

I just wish the damned things were cheaper so I could actually collect the different codices instead of just buying the ones I need.

 Blacksails wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:


Let's be honest. If you want the Space Wolf codex to be incorporated into the Space Marine codex, you really just don't like Space Wolves and want to stick it to them. Merging them with the Space Marine codex is the next closest thing to completely and utterly getting rid of them. (Unless the Space Marine codex had a good twenty or thirty pages (Minimum) dedicated to explaining the differences and rules for Space Wolves.) So many unique things would be dropped, they would for all intents and purposes cease to exist.

No, that's not it all. I don't have a thing against Space Wolves (besides the absurd wolf names everywhere), it just never made sense to me to have an entirely separate codex for an army that was functionally the same as several others, just with minor rule changes, name changes, and better point costing.

You don't need things like Frost weapons, or skyclaws, or Iron priests listed out exactly. They all have nearly indentical entries in the vanilla book, you'd just have to model them more wolfy.

The bigger part of capturing an armies 'theme' or 'feel' isn't in the minute rules. Its in the list creation, and visual appearance. A sea of grey marines called 'Space Wolves' looks no different than a sea of grey marines called 'Blood Angels'. But a painted Imperial Fist army looks incredibly different (and plays differently based on unit selection) than a painted Salamanders, using the same codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Weasel wrote:
But those differences make up the SW... you could just have one rulebook and have every army be the same minus the minis...

exaggerating yes, but the SW have differences to the SM, why not let them stay different?

They have very minor differences. I'm fine letting them stay the way they are, and I realize that's the way its going to be, but in a thread asking me why I think the way I do, I'll gladly tell you that I think there's no reason for SW to be separate.

I can appritiate the line of thought.

I don't agree in general. I see enough differences in the non codex:sm marines to fill the codex. I see that you could limit them back to being pretty much grey space marines. I think there is enough other stuff (mostly made up for the last dex, probably to try and warrent them (and BA) having thier own codex.

I'll be interested in what both the BA and SW codex actualy does... will it make them farther divergent from SM? keep them where they are now? bring them closer to the sm?

Why not incorporate the Chaos marine codex too!

 Blacksails wrote:

No, that's not it all. I don't have a thing against Space Wolves (besides the absurd wolf names everywhere), it just never made sense to me to have an entirely separate codex for an army that was functionally the same as several others, just with minor rule changes, name changes, and better point costing.
They have very minor differences. I'm fine letting them stay the way they are, and I realize that's the way its going to be, but in a thread asking me why I think the way I do, I'll gladly tell you that I think there's no reason for SW to be separate.

Wrong, I have tried to make Space Wolves using Codex: Space Marines, back in third, 4th and 5th.

Yes you can put the models together, but they just become Grey Space Marines.
They don’t feel the same, work the same or even behave the same. nothing about them become Space Wolves, even taking the new one, nothing would feel right.

I won't individually quote all the responses, so I'll just respond in summary.

@AllSeeingSkink
It may not be what you want, but what I want is pretty much not at all likely. My argument doesn't rest on what I, or other people want, its based around a gameplay/mechanical perspective. Granted, part of that is my own idea of how the game should work, and part of that is not having several dozen codices each trying to represent every single sub faction from every core race.

It'd be nice in a perfect world to have a separate codex for each craftworld, clan, kabal, chapter, warband, tomb world, and hive fleet (and others), but it'd be so overwhelming ridiculous to balance, update and general keep track of, that it would too burdensome to implement. To that end, I see no reason why a properly done C:SM with added options couldn't represent every single marine chapter just as the current Eldar book can be used to represent every craftworld, or how Imperial Guard can be used to represent every single regiment (who are far more diverse and varied anyways).

I do agree that the codex system is archaic anyways, and a much better, cleaner solution could be used. I also agree that much of the game's fat could be trimmed, but I disagree that the Wolves would be exempt. If anything, that's exactly the kind of redundant bloat that would be first to go.

And yes, I wish they were cheaper too. I believe very firmly a rules only downloadable 'codex' should be free, and a nice book with fluff would be worth ~$30. But that's a different subject for another topic.

@Brother Weasel
I'm glad you can understand my point of view, regardless of whether you agree or not. Its the start of a healthy discussion.

I'm fairly certain any new editions of marine books will add increasingly more divergent units to make them seem more unique, like the Nephilim Jetfighter and variant for DA. There's no real rhyme or reason rules wise to have them distinct, when that unit could very well be made available to every marine player, increasing overall unit diversity and availability for everyone. It also helps justify the distinct codex, but I still see no reason they couldn't just be given to a grand book of power armour.

However, I'm totally open to three books for marines as Psienesis posted earlier; codex adherent loyalist, non-codex adherent loyalist, and a proper chaos marine book with legion rules and better renegade representative.

@Anpu24
I'm not wrong, I could put together a marine army using C:SM, paint them space wolf grey with wolf stuff everywhere, and feel exactly like I'm playing Space Wolves. I do it every time I play my Mordian IG, and I'm sure everyone does the same thing when they play a DIY chapter, or a successor chapter, or really any faction that doesn't have a distinct book.

The presence of a unit called 'Sky Claws', or 'Blood Claws' isn't what makes Space Wolves unique. Nor is it the difference between Rune Priests and Librarians, or how frost weapons are just better power weapons. The feel of a marine chapter isn't dependent on a dozen special rules, characters and units. Ask any marine player who uses vanilla marines to represent a myriad of different chapters, some more divergent than others. Most chapters only need a CT, an SC or two, and maybe a unique unit. The other factors are far more important than having an exact stat line for thunderwolf cavalry. They could easily be different models for basic marine bikers (size issues aside, but that's because of their rules), likewise Long Fangs are fundamentally no different than Devastators.

I also understand that you'd be very protective in a discussion like this, seeing as they're your army, and given your inclinations in your signature block, I know I won't be able to sway you. While I know I'm not right, neither am I wrong, and I do accept that it'll stay the way it is. Really though, it'll take a lot to convince me that Wolves need a distinct codex to play like the fluff.

Here's another thing: The reason I chose to play Space Wolves over all the other codex options wasn't the fluff, it was the rules. (I like the Space Wolf fluff, but I use my own paint scheme and homebrew fluff anyways.) Not because they were any stronger than Marines, (I firmly stand with my opinion that Space Wolves are no more powerful than vanilla Marines), but because I preferred how their rules worked, how their units were organized, and how uniquely they functioned. A Space Wolf army might look similar to vanilla at first glance, but they are VERY VERY different in terms of actual gameplay. If you actually play with Space Wolves, you realize that. Space Wolves and Space Marines are only as similar as, say, Dark Eldar and Eldar, if not less so. The way they play is far more dissimilar than Dark Angels, (I can't speak for BA since I don't play with or against them very often).

DOOMONYOU wrote:
Why not incorporate the Chaos marine codex too!

I can't complain. We would actually have legion tactics and they shall know no gear

I think it depends on how broad a definition of rolled in you go with.

That being said, I do think GW should have put out SM as the first book of the edition, then developed BA, BT, DA, GK and SW as supplements to that book rather than placing them in that book itself.

 Blacksails wrote:
Ask any marine player who uses vanilla marines to represent a myriad of different chapters, some more divergent than others. Most chapters only need a CT, an SC or two, and maybe a unique unit. The other factors are far more important than having an exact stat line for thunderwolf cavalry. They could easily be different models for basic marine bikers (size issues aside, but that's because of their rules), likewise Long Fangs are fundamentally no different than Devastators.

One issue with this though is that SW, BA and BT are much more melee-centric than Vanilla Marines. As evidenced by the folding of BT into the Vanilla Codex, a few special rules don't turn a shooting army into a melee army.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


One issue with this though is that SW, BA and BT are much more melee-centric than Vanilla Marines. As evidenced by the folding of BT into the Vanilla Codex, a few special rules don't turn a shooting army into a melee army.

Sure, and so are several dozen successor chapters. I'm speaking purely in hypotheticals, but I'm also working under the assumption this Big Book of Marine would have a semblance of balance, which would allow equal parts shooting and assaulting.

But again, 6th isn't really helping the issue as an edition. Such is 40k at the moment, unfortunately. Trust me, I miss my old power blobs for IG.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Ask any marine player who uses vanilla marines to represent a myriad of different chapters, some more divergent than others. Most chapters only need a CT, an SC or two, and maybe a unique unit. The other factors are far more important than having an exact stat line for thunderwolf cavalry. They could easily be different models for basic marine bikers (size issues aside, but that's because of their rules), likewise Long Fangs are fundamentally no different than Devastators.

One issue with this though is that SW, BA and BT are much more melee-centric than Vanilla Marines. As evidenced by the folding of BT into the Vanilla Codex, a few special rules don't turn a shooting army into a melee army.

My friend still tries to fight the way of the power blob. It hurts to watch sometimes ;-;

It would be inefficient to put them all in one book like that. the cost will just be stupid. The current codex is almost fine as is. If they make another it just needs access to Flakk missiles and Storm Ravens.

So what you're saying is...its inefficient to trim out the redundancy of the Wolves and put them in the same book with everyone else...but efficient to make a separate book with all the redundancy reprinted?

Kay.

Omicron-Fenrir wrote:
It would be inefficient to put them all in one book like that. the cost will just be stupid. The current codex is almost fine as is. If they make another it just needs access to Flakk missiles and Storm Ravens.

Why get Storm Ravens for a chapter that does not fly ... They have a fear of technology, that is why the Termies can not teleport. Flakk missle I will go with, but they should not get any fliers.

They should be "rolled in" through a Supplement. The whole concept of Supplements seems like it was purely intended to work with Space Marines. They just need to learn how to make Supplements that are actually worth a damn instead of "here's a special rule, a bit of fluff you already knew, and a Chapter Relic. That'll be £30 please".

EDIT: Oh, and a Warlord Trait. Let's not forget those, the most important elements of the game! Hooray for random tables!

SW should definitely have their own Codex. There's just too much background information from the HH era that would be lost and too much attention given to the UM to properly give the other First Foundings their day in the sun. Too many of them are already relegated to the sidelines.

Not to mention that the original SW Codex predates the Ultramarines one, so tradition alone would suffice as a reason for the Wolves to have their own Codex.

 OIIIIIIO wrote:

Omicron-Fenrir wrote:
It would be inefficient to put them all in one book like that. the cost will just be stupid. The current codex is almost fine as is. If they make another it just needs access to Flakk missiles and Storm Ravens.

Why get Storm Ravens for a chapter that does not fly ... They have a fear of technology, that is why the Termies can not teleport. Flakk missle I will go with, but they should not get any fliers.

They don't have a fear of flyers. They have their own fleet of spaceships and they have Thunderhawk Gunships just like every other chapter.

The only reason I'm looking into space wolves is the uniqueness of them.

If they just rolled them in with the space marines there would be no point to play them.

Exactly. A compilation of them all in one book would make a large book (even with condensing the armory) and although it would be doable (about the size of the BRB or less), the cost would be huge.

It would also require a "hold" on marine rules releases and such as it would require ALL of them to be updated and playtested and ready at the same time.

If they changed their minds. If they decided against it in the future, you would then have wasted your $ buying the huge book if they just released them again a year later in a seperate dex again. Thus making it a risky investment for he player.

Meh, fluffs be damned... just add a bunch of special rules at the back of the book and assign them to different chapters' units. Do as the IG codex would, let chapter HQs represent different chapter special rules and add chapter-specific combat doctrines and we will be done. Put those HQ units that has no particular plot significance into squad upgrades, or just remove then. People will just use them as normal sergeant or whatever.

But thinking about something doesn't seem to bring about the desired results, sign.

I feel I have beat this to death in the other thread but

In the way some people are reasoning here, we could roll all codices in C:SM because everything is just marines with different stats and different wargear.
Grey Hunters? Tac marines with different stats and wargear.
Grey Knights? Just marines with different stats and wargear.
Tau Fire Warriors? Tac Marines with different stats and wargear.
Really, that is no way to be reasoning. If it has a different name, different stats and different wargear, it is a unique unit, and not a C:SM unit with different stats and wargear.

But they don't have different stats. Virtually every tac marine squad is the same, 1 Wound, 8 Leadership, 3+ armor, 4s for everything else, Bolters, Grenades, and a Sergeant. There is no point in repeating this statline four times in four different books. Just give the Marines the rule "chapter tactics", which grants different benefits depending on chapter and suddenly you have identical entries for the different subfactions.

Your example of a Tau Fire Warrior is absurd, it shares exactly 1 stat with Tac mairnes (1 Wound), and no equipment, upgrades or special rules. It could not be condensed as described above.

Phanixis wrote:
But they don't have different stats. Virtually every tac marine squad is the same, 1 Wound, 8 Leadership, 3+ armor, 4s for everything else, Bolters, Grenades, and a Sergeant. There is no point in repeating this statline four times in four different books. Just give the Marines the rule "chapter tactics", which grants different benefits depending on chapter and suddenly you have identical entries for the different subfactions.

Grey Hunters have the same stats but different options. No combat squads or heavy weapons, even since their first codex in 2nd edition they haven't had the same options. They also have different base equipment.

Blood claws are -1Ws, -1Bs, they could be Assault Marines, but by default they are troops on foot, not Assault Marines, so you'd have to create another entry for them. Also the berserk charge/headstrong.

Wolf Scouts are different because the Chapter structure is different. You could make them the same as SM scouts, but you won't be making any SW players happy.

Long Fangs are +1Ld.

Fenrisian Wolves are a unique unit.

TWC are a unique unit. You could call them bikers but that would be stupid, they are cavalry.

Bikers and Assault marines would need -1 Ws and Bs, also berserk charge/headstrong.

Wolf Guard behave differently to the SM equivalents. You could make them the same, but you won't be making any SW players happy.

Space Wolves currently have 8 special characters all of which have models.

Could you fit all that in a Space Marine codex? Sure... but I think it's enough differences to warrant their own codex.

Could you simplify them to be regular Space Marines? Sure... but you'll not be making Space Wolf players happy, so it's hardly worth doing just to consolidate some rules IMO.

If SW have had their own Codex for the past 20 years, I might see the advantage of not splitting them off to have their own Codex. But they are already a unique codex and have been for a very long time.

Space Wolves are actually the army I'd least expect to be rolled into the SM book; Blood Angels have a stat change to their vehicles that could easily be made into a wargear upgrade and all of two specialist units that can be stuck onto the book just like Crusader Squads were, Dark Angels would just simulate Deathwing and Ravenwing through Chapter Tactics and add some wargear options to the Storm Talon and the Land Speeder (maybe with a unique Knight unit). Space Wolves are very differently organized, they share almost no units in terms of organization and weapon options with Codex Marines.

If you rolled SW, BA, and DA into the marine codex, this is what would take. Specifically, this is the bare minimum that would need to added.

2 pages of fluff for BA
2 pages of fluff for DA
2 pages of fluff for SW
3 pages of photos of the miniatures from each of these chapters
1 page for Dante
1 page for Mephiston
1 page for the sanguinor
1 page for Astorath
1 page for Tycho
1 page for Corbulo
1 page for the furioso dreadnought
1 page for the death company
1 page for Azrael
1 page for Ezekiel
1 page for Belial
1 page for Asmodai
1 page for Deathwing Terminators
1 page for Ravenwing bikes
1 page for Logan Grimnar
1 page for Njal
1 page for Canis
1 page for Ragnar
1 page for Ulrik
1 page for TWC
about 6 pages for the added unit profiles.

Added up, this 35 more pages. The price for adding 72 pages to the $8.50. So if a giant space marine codex actually came out, it would probably be around $62.50.

However, this is after deleting out a host of units that have models for them and removing some of the variety from 40k.

My personal opinion is that the more codices we have, the better. Variety is what makes this game fun, and any time you lose options is a bad thing.

I personally don't mind a lot of codices. I don't like having a lot of sources of rules that are digital only or the rules for a given army being spread over lots of locations.

 ironhammer2194 wrote:
If you rolled SW, BA, and DA into the marine codex, this is what would take. Specifically, this is the bare minimum that would need to added.

2 pages of fluff for BA
2 pages of fluff for DA
2 pages of fluff for SW
3 pages of photos of the miniatures from each of these chapters
1 page for Dante
1 page for Mephiston
1 page for the sanguinor
1 page for Astorath
1 page for Tycho
1 page for Corbulo
1 page for the furioso dreadnought
1 page for the death company
1 page for Azrael
1 page for Ezekiel
1 page for Belial
1 page for Asmodai
1 page for Deathwing Terminators
1 page for Ravenwing bikes
1 page for Logan Grimnar
1 page for Njal
1 page for Canis
1 page for Ragnar
1 page for Ulrik
1 page for TWC
about 6 pages for the added unit profiles.

Added up, this 35 more pages. The price for adding 72 pages to the $8.50. So if a giant space marine codex actually came out, it would probably be around $62.50.

However, this is after deleting out a host of units that have models for them and removing some of the variety from 40k.

My personal opinion is that the more codices we have, the better. Variety is what makes this game fun, and any time you lose options is a bad thing.

Which is why it shouldn't be done that way.

Codex: SM covers generic marines.
Codex Expansion: Blood Angels - Blood Angels Fluff, Specific Characters, Specific rules, specific units and notes on which Codex: SM units are also in the BA army and what mods they would have.
Codex Expansion: Black Templars, Dark Angels, Grey Knights and Space Wolves could be done the same way.

I wouldn't mind Soace Wolves being considered a 'Suppliment' if they actually put some effort into the Supplement and kept each Wolf unit feeling unique. As opposed to the Raukanaan supplement, which was 'Here's six pieces of wargear, a new Walord Traits chart, and the ability to take far more Dreadnoughts and Techmarines than concievably useful. That'll be 35 Bucks.'
(I just recently looked through it. Really? Not even a special character or unique unit?)

Frozen Ocean wrote:They should be "rolled in" through a Supplement. The whole concept of Supplements seems like it was purely intended to work with Space Marines. They just need to learn how to make Supplements that are actually worth a damn instead of "here's a special rule, a bit of fluff you already knew, and a Chapter Relic. That'll be £30 please".

EDIT: Oh, and a Warlord Trait. Let's not forget those, the most important elements of the game! Hooray for random tables!

Waaaghpower wrote:I wouldn't mind Soace Wolves being considered a 'Suppliment' if they actually put some effort into the Supplement and kept each Wolf unit feeling unique. As opposed to the Raukanaan supplement, which was 'Here's six pieces of wargear, a new Walord Traits chart, and the ability to take far more Dreadnoughts and Techmarines than concievably useful. That'll be 35 Bucks.'
(I just recently looked through it. Really? Not even a special character or unique unit?)

Could have just hit "Quote".