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I just want to see the face of horror when someone gets taken down in a major turny by a list of the lost and damned that did not even bother getting anything special

Just the "we have reserves" thing, and an absurd spam of big squads dedicated sole for board control.

I have yet to run the numbers, but I believe its possible in a 1850 point list to field over 400 models, even with mere 1/3 chance to return I don't think many top-tier lists have the theoretical kill potential to stop them from holding half or more of the objectives by sheer swarming even if the mutants themselves fail to kill anything (and with these absurd numbers, SOMETHING will die of pure buckets of dice)


Heck, fielding 5 enforcered squads is already 355 models, and its just in the 1000 point area, you got 850 points to play with...(some goes to the command suqad naturally, so lets say 750 points to play with?)




Diablix-you are doing it wrong.

You got BS2, so why take scatter lasers? take flamers or the missile thingy, and bomb away with zero care in the world that you cant aim, you simply DON'T aim.

20 will be left over from my mutant squad when it reaches you? so you hit about 36 times, assuming ALL your guns are S6 or higher, as 1 fails to wound anyway, a few more if you didnt use S6 so I got my FnP, or if you are lower than S5 and dont wound on 2, that means (with bs4) you shot at them about 48 times.
If the enemy spent 48 S6 BS4 shots on a squad I paid about 200 points for, I'd say it did her job. at the 80 on-charge attacks are bound to kill something.
The are not good because they are lethal, they are good for being dirt cheap, and throwing silly number of dice.

Okay, I see that it's pointless and we're not going anywhere. We've a different way of seeing it.
I do really hope that time will prove me wrong.

By the way do you see any possibility to build a mechanized list or at least something whose strategy is not "flood the enemy with 200 models"?

Even ignoring my opinion about their effectiveness, it is a way of playing I don't like at all. I was hoping to play something more elite or at least some tanks with the bad guys...
And I'm pretty sad right now, since it's likely we won't see it in a long long time.

From what I've gathered right now I can't see how, the lack of orders/relics totally disrupts the concept of using lots of veterans with chimeras.
While the tank commander makes an armoured company too weak, in my opinion.
Anything that I missed? Ideas?

You can kill 12-13 in a single round of bolter fire?

Amazing. because mathematically speaking, 19 bolter shots (most the tactical squad can get) should be about 7 kills on the mutants.

Your marines must be hell of a shot.


EDIT: I'm going to stop, as its obvious no matter how many mathematical examples, combo showings or examples of things they get and IG can only dream about we will post, you are going to ignore them.
Anyone else want to talk something about the list?

 BoomWolf wrote:
You can kill 12-13 in a single round of bolter fire?

Amazing. because mathematically speaking, 19 bolter shots (most the tactical squad can get) should be about 7 kills on the mutants.

Your marines must be hell of a shot.


EDIT: I'm going to stop, as its obvious no matter how many mathematical examples, combo showings or examples of things they get and IG can only dream about we will post, you are going to ignore them.
Anyone else want to talk something about the list?

It was an error I was going to correct, before I gave up with the pointless argument. I just didn't edit in time. By the way I stupidly forgot to roll to hit...
However, if you're still in the mood, in the previous post I switched to what I hope you'll consider a more constructive approach

Its is possible and viable to run a mechanised list with this codex, hell with the abundance of cheap units you can easily populate a nice variety of lists and still be able to pick and choose.

Leman Russ Squadrons - Usually I'd slap militia training on them since the tanks would be nice with the ability to shoot straight, but with the cheapest clocking in at just 110 for a front av 14 fast russ (conqueror) able to be fielded in squadrons of 3 it seems like a good win

Artillery Squadrons - Basilisks and Medusa, again cheap and cheerful even at low BS they can wreck face

Strike Squadrons - Dirt cheap griffons and wyverns, new guard tank filtered to the evil doers and so cheap its awesome.

Sentinel Squadrons - Upto 6 Sentinels in a single squad? Starting at just 20 points a piece slap on a heavy flamer.

Veteran Squads - Chimera Access, BS 3 Base, can get carapace (and bionics with hereteks). Covenant of Tzeentch means snapshooting on BS2 aswell which is lovely.

Hellhound Squadrons, Salamander Scout Squadrons, Valkerie Squadrons.

Artillery Batteries, Light Artillery Batteries, Heavy Weapon Squads (6 dirt cheap teams to hide in terrain?)

This list has a tonne of variety in it, your HQ choice letting you shape your lord of war selection but also armywide rules (My Magos giving me Decimator Access for example), adding in the flexibility of Covenants of various gods its a fantastically varied list

Arvis lighters. What to put in them? Havoks? Plaguemarines?

I think a chaos air list would be dumb as all hell, but pretty damn effective. Ulike pretty much every other army in the game, chaos has a whackload of options to play with. Hellblades/talons are some pretty baller air superiority fighters now (though the bombing rules for the talon are sort of weird. It needs some kind of multiple drop rule), fire raptors are nuts with balefire missiles and autocannons. Plague drones are extreamly durable little gunships (2+ jink). Cheap as chips arvis lighters lets you carry any troops around. And then the normal heldrakes/flying DP/GDs for good measure.

Let me start by saying I also am still waiting on my copy so please excuse me if I get something wrong.

First I would like to point out that the inclusion of the sicarn alone give CSM hope in DE and CWE match ups where their utter lack of ability to catch or kill at range the 3+ cover skimmers usually meant a very up hill game.

The biggest addition to this book is rule updates for several models and the Legacies of Ruin which has some great stuff like reroll warp dice equal to remaining HP of any malefic power cast near the vehicle...awesome.

I would also like to point out that except for against Tau I have almost never lost Be'Lakor before turn 4. You start him out of LoS behind terrain, jump him forward out of LoS behind a vehicle or central LoS blocking terrain, and then either fly him off the board or assault something turn 3. Be'Lakor only dies to greed and bad planning (and SMS...ugh), though due to these limitations he is often not worth the effort. It could be interesting to conga line massive RH units back to him and let him buff a bunch of units with a single shrouding and a leading zombie unit with invisibility, therefore a big unit of 3+/5+ cover, invisible, FnP 4+...annoying enough?, this of course making every other unit have 3+ cover saves.

I already see a number of synergistic elements to this army that are huge.

The ability to ally a bunch of artillery units to CSM and CD without having to deal with bad alliance levels is huge. This makes it much easier to play reserve based lists as artillery units are nearly extremely tough to kill turn 1. The rapier is also some of the best anti tank and AA available to Chaos, attaching a character with covenant of Tz makes this doubly true. The medusa and earthshaker are both so cheap that it is mind boggling, what a change for most chaos lists, being able to throw more firepower down range than even IG. BS is not a huge deal btw on large blast and thud guns as the initial scatter has a 1/3 chance to hit anyways. Getting more guns is always better for a blast or template weapon. Also being able to get cheap 6+ FnP on a T7 unit is pretty awesome.

T5 spawn are okay, not great, not bad. Spawn that are ObjSec and can be taken as small, fast, scoring units that can run around claiming objectives so they have to be killed are pretty awesome. They will definitely be an annoyance that is for sure. They are a lot better forward scoring option than IG gets.

The infantry platoons seem like a decent source of MSU ObjSec for most lists with the ability to make them contribute a little by getting a flamer for the unit (BS2 doesn't matter when you have a flamer and your Ld will probably never be used for a 5 model T3 unit, much more likely to just get wiped out). If you double down on them and take big units you start getting extremely good values for the upgrades and you can use different special rule to buff them up enormously, such as huron infiltrating D3 of them or if you play IC can infiltrate units then Cypher would be pretty awesome.

Veterans can get tank hunter. This can actually be a very useful addition to put on a quad gun inside a bunker. Who needs an order when you can purchase it?

I really like the plague zombies in this list. With some infiltration shenanigans and a decent CC character in the unit it could seriously hinder your opponent's movement and very possibly win you the positioning portion of the game.

Blood Slaughterers, I may be the only person who like them but I find them to be tough and more than capable of locking down the center of the board leaving you in control of the game. In an army with screening infantry to keel DSers from their rear and long range anti tank, AA, and infantry. Great.

BTW there is supposedly one special character Arkos the Faithless. Personally I am far happier with highly customizable generic characters who I can make my own special character out of.

No, I don't see a way to build a list that isn't based around "flood the table with abnormal number of models"

What's the problem? that's the ARMY.
There is no need for it to adhere to the IG mech tactics.

Even when going mech, its about spamming cheaper tanks, or lots of cheap units in lots of cheap transports.
And they got tanks, lots of tanks. every blast-based or template-based tank is even better than its IG counterpart

And you can throw some silly assault units in the mix just for kicks. you said T5 spawns are bad, but do you know how much they COST? wait till you see the list with your eyes, you will be shocked.

And you can meatshield with zombies, do the said sentinal spam (they are also VERY cheap, they come stock for less than an IG priest)

The lost and damned army is about numbers, not quality. and it's perfectly fine that it is.

CSM covers the "elite" guys, daemons are the daemons, LaD are the "hordes of chaos"
It may not be your flavor of an army, but it is an army, it is THIS army, and its a unique, stand-alone army.
And an army that is good at doing it's thing. because it can spam cheap annoying buggers in a way that makes IG, orks and nids drop jaws.

Hilariously, you could stick horrors+heralds in chimeras for witchfire dakkabus shinnanigins.

Also, the elite human approach is -sort- of viable, with Bloody Handed Reaver demagogue giving you cheap Storm-Trooper equivalents (10 of them is 100pts), which can be further upgraded with deepstrike, scout, tankhunters, and the usual chaos-covnenant goodies (fleet, 6+fnp). Objectivly, theyre much more versatile than scions, aside from the orders.

I think we need to see a 1850 list with CSM allies to appreciate all these comments ...

 McGibs wrote:
Hilariously, you could stick horrors+heralds in chimeras for witchfire dakkabus shinnanigins.

Also, the elite human approach is -sort- of viable, with Bloody Handed Reaver demagogue giving you cheap Storm-Trooper equivalents (10 of them is 100pts), which can be further upgraded with deepstrike, scout, tankhunters, and the usual chaos-covnenant goodies (fleet, 6+fnp). Objectivly, theyre much more versatile than scions, aside from the orders.

120 Points for the 10 of them, since you'll want carapace and the grenadier upgrade to be the Storm-trooper Equivalent
In taking carapace you now can no longer take deepstrike, scout, or tank hunters etc.

Its still a good unit, but costs more than stated and has less options.

I'm also curious as to why Furious Charge costs so much on a veteran squad, a single attack guardsmen really benefits more from carapace, scout, deepstrike etc all of which are cheaper. Especially in a unit where the only power weapon is on the champion

 McGibs wrote:
Hilariously, you could stick horrors+heralds in chimeras for witchfire dakkabus shinnanigins.

Also, the elite human approach is -sort- of viable, with Bloody Handed Reaver demagogue giving you cheap Storm-Trooper equivalents (10 of them is 100pts), which can be further upgraded with deepstrike, scout, tankhunters, and the usual chaos-covnenant goodies (fleet, 6+fnp). Objectivly, theyre much more versatile than scions, aside from the orders.

I was thinking about Noise Marines with full sonics riding round in that Chimera. Expensive way to ruin someone's day.

My bad, I misread that carapace came with the upgrade. sucks they cant take carapace and another doctrine.

The furious charge cost is weirdly high, though the vets come with WS4 stock, and 2 attacks (pistol/ccw). I guess theoretically, a squad of 10 could be made into an assault squad with furious charge, two flamers, and khorne covenant. It's not efficient, but, hey... its an option.

Carapace is under "may take one of the following" section which includes the tank hunter etc options

^durr, I herped again.

So I took some time to math out the probability of getting certain Ld with the tools renegades have at their disposal since kept hearing people complaining about their random Ld and figured I'd post it here too.

Just the Vox-caster reroll is easy as its the same probability for rerolling to hit and such. so Ld10 is 30.5%, 9 or higher Ld is 55.56%, 8 or higher 75% meaning that this 5pt upgrade gives a 75% of having LD at least as good as an IG sergeant. The odds of having 5-6 LD is only 11%.

Just the Fanatic rule alone has the same odds as well but it also doesn't put you in quandries of having to decide if you want to reroll a 3 or 4 to get a higher Ld so is inherently better. Is also is a fairly accessible rule because you can get a Demagogue in each platoon and you have your arch-demagogue too.

If you add them together then it compounds your success. So Ld10 is a 51.7% probability, 9+Ld is 80.2% and 8+Ld is 91.67%.

If you went on and added an Enforcer who gives +1Ld to his unit it bumps up each probability bracket by 1. So with just Vox or Fanatic by itself you have 55.56% for Ld10, 75% for Ld9 and so on. This means that with both you have a 80.2% chance at having Ld10 and 91.% at Ld9+. That is awesome. Plus Enforcer lets you reroll failed morale too (in the same way a commissar does of course).

Not to mention the chaos sigil's autopass once a turn. Basically with the sigil and one of the tools from above you should easily expect to have a Ld good enough to pass a morale check from shooting and then you can just use the sigil for if you get in combat.

Ld really seems quite manageable.

The guyz have less problems with ld than orks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
From what i read here, the army could be decent with lots of cheapo infantry and vehicles. Some nice tricks and a freaking mass of bodies.

The guy complains about conscripts with ccw?.. Man, my grots cost the same and are s2 t2, ini2, have no ccw and armor but are still worh fielding.

Ld is not "manageable", its erratic, but if you focus on it enough you get nearly fearless stats with all the bonuses, rerolls and autopasses you can stack on each other.

An 80% to score an LD10 mutant rabble that can reroll for an execution and autopass once per turn is not running away anytime soon.

Do we have any info on renegade ogryns? I have ordered my copy but still waiting. Post office in greece rocks... I ve heard about some upgrades they can have such as 4+ save, fnp from nurgle. I guess the power drill is a power weapon? Ap? What is the unit size? And the hounds are they as in the vraks version? I was trying to think them as allies for my CD or CSM with the mutant overlord plus a big unit of ogryns. Maybe with cypher for shrouded plus infiltrate goodness. What's your opinion of them?

Ogryn Brutes are expensive to my mine, clocking at 3 renegade sentinels for a single Ogryn

Can get Flak (5+) or Carapace (4+), packmaster can take chaos hounds which are reasonable (2 wounds a piece) and cost half a chaos ogryn each. Access to all 3 dedications for the squad though reasonably Tzeentch aint great for em.

One per unit can get lascutter or breacher drill.

3 Wounds a piece and fearless isnt anything to sniff at really. No ranged weaponry what so ever (frag grenade if you count that)

Issue with carapace upgrade is that its better value the more ogryns you have, but Ogryns cost so much it's unlikely to see much use.

Edit:

My mistake Tzeentch for ogryns gives them another CC weapon and soulblaze on their attacks, quite useful)

And their unit size? 5? Do you know what the breacher drill does?

Unit size can be up to 10, plus 6 dogs, but thats ungodly expensive. (with upgrades, they each cost more than a chimera)

Annoyingly, the breacher-drill and laser cutter arent listed (rules in one of the other books), but I think theyre something dumb like 1 unwieldly str10-ap1 attack at WS1. Not worth it.

Str 9, AP2, Unwieldy, Cumbersome for the Lascutter. (Single attack, WS1)

(Found the rules in forgeworlds Tyrant Legion PDF)

Just saw some of the legacies that you can get for vehicles and the Perdus Rift Anomaly definitely stands out: Preferred Enemy(Tau) and a reroll to seize seems pretty sweet. I'd slap it on a Sicaran for sure. Any CSM characters that give pluses to seize? I can't think of any at the moment to combine this with.

Yea, that one had me a bit bummered, CSM are going to be having PE tau tanks running around starting now....


Not sure if the legac is worth the actual cost though, PE is rather specific and rerolling seize does not in fact matter all that often (It makes a difference in 5/72 games.)

Yeah it just seemed cool if I could fit one in with my Daemons as I reeealllly want to go first against Tau in order to put up all the buffs I need. It's just PE(tau) for the one tank though right? not a huge deal. Although it could also be cool on a Fire Raptor. That's why I was wondering about any way to bump that up to a 5+ but I can't think of any. that would make it a lot more of a viable strategy.

Its still just a 30% to steal. not a strategy to build on.
Just not sure if its worth that 20 points just to counter tau a bit.
(and with tau's focal fire strategies, it will just be the first tank to be nuked)




I wonder how long till we start seeing heretic battle reports?

I've been looking at the book and have a few questions about the renegades make up.

1) Under the devotions descriptions it says "Demagogues" from the "command squad" may take a devotion. Are we to assume Demagogue means Arch-Demagogue? It is somewhat confusing because platoon command squads come with a Demagogue. I think its referring to Arch-Demagogue as that makes the most sense.

2) In the same paragraph it says any demagogue taking the devotion will automatically be the armies warlord. What if you take an allied renegades force? Does this override the general rule that your warlord must be from your primary detachment? On a side note I find it funny that it still references Ld values for determining warlords even though 7th did away with that and surely they knew this book wouldn't be out until after 7th.

3) Renegade Infantry Platoons it is said are made up of 3-5 Infantry Squads. It says they are treated as one force org choice and arrive from reserves on a single roll, but there's no such rule like 'combined squads' that AM have. So there's nothing saying you can blob them together like AM platoons do. It seems like this was the intention to allow blob squads but maybe not and its just to allow you to take more than six squads in a single force org. Can they blob or no?

4) Points costs for adding extra men to a squad seem kinda wonky for some units. I noticed Disciples and Veterans cost 35 for the first 5 (7pts per) but 10 per to add more. Is this to encourage MSU? Its not a huge difference but I don't really see the point.

EDIT:

5) Salamanders are listed as BS3 but they can pay 10 pts "increase BS to 3" should the original be BS2 or the upgrade be BS4? Does this thing have a model or is it just a chimera without lasgun arrays?

I've noticed a few little typos and errors as well, but I think its pretty safe to assume the intentions.

1) Yeah, the Arch-Demagogue
2) I'd say your primary detachment takes precedence. Its like having Abbadon (who MUST be your warlord), but if he's an ally, he's just along for the ride.
3) It means you keep the entire 3-5 squads in reserve, and you make 1 reserve roll to bring them on. Once theyre on the board, theyre treated as different units. Blobbing them up definitly wasnt the intention, as the old IG codex had a simmilar rule for platoons (in reserves, theyre essentially one unit)
4) Forgeworld has a (good) habit of playing with point costs, which GWproper could learn a thing or two from. Some units have higher or lower base costs than individual models to reflect some sort of general strategy. In this case, its probably to incentivize players to max out thier FOC before building up squads.

5)I'd assume Salamander BS is a copy-paste typo. They should be stock 2, like everything else with militia training. Though theyre also listed as BS3 in the reference at the back. In either case, militia training only gives BS3 (not +1BS), so they wouldnt get BS4.

So I think I might pick up this book, been wanting to make a renegade army force witha bunch of troops and a ton of artillery for a loooong time. Quick question, do the renegade army guys still come with a lasgun as well as a pistol and cc weapon?

I have 30 guardsmen that were going to be part of my imperial army for when FW finally get round to doing it for the horus heresy and was going to get some more with alternative gas mask heads but if they don't come with lasguns in this list they'll drive me insane all carrying them, WYSIWYG has corrupted me and I can no longer use my imagination...