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I'm aware there probably aren't a vast amount of people looking at lists for this army just yet, but I'm already very taken with the concept. So with that in mind I thought it would be great if there was at least some discussion going, as I'm really not very experienced with anything even remotely like guard so maybe I can drag in some good people.

To me the first thing to keep in mind is the total lack of an orders system, so while some units have seen point drops due to lower BS etc this doesn't seem to have been fully taken into account in every units cost. Obviously this is far from the only difference though with the myriad of different options and with even something seemingly core like a renegades (infantry) platoon having been changed quite a bit, the ability to take a special for every 5 makes the veterans in this list seem almost redundant especially when they're so much more expensive per body, and how often do you find yourself rolling a 5+ armour save?

Also very torn on a HQ to get going with, Primaris-Rogue Witch seems to be not much mastery, and I don't know that I'd want to take rogue psykers just to give him more. I'm not seeing why you would actually want the mutants table so that's mutant overlord out for me though as with many things feel free to sway me on this.

Master of the Horde is one of the first seemingly viable ones, though having to take two platoons means a lot of points going into standard mooks, although the chance of them coming back on is rather tasty, seems to me to be the way to run a foot horde, and oh man can you ever run a horde.

Arch-Heretic doesn't make a whole lot of sense unless I'm missing something, woo I save a tiny amount of points on a devotion which is less than his cost, and then I can pay twice that much to get potentially better leadership when the other thing he unlocks is more of the unit that makes leadership matter less.

Heretek Magus is my definite favourite (with perhaps a little bias), your warlord becomes a lot less squishy than the rest of your army, having access to decimators and defilers while I'm sure it's fluffy it's also mostly pointless. Decimators are terrible and defilers are still massively overcosted especially in this army (I'm sure we'll get to their artillery options later). The good thing for me is the meltagun costed FNP 6+, it's not going to save a tonne of them but at least it's as cheap if not cheaper than an actual save on most units and should reduce small arms casualties slightly, as with most upgrades in the list the more guys in the squad the better the value.

Bloody-handed Reaver definitely encourages an elite feel, but it does this in an army of random leadership values and high costs on elite units, someone please convince me otherwise as he sounds a barrel of laughs to play. Thrown in 5++ and access to hot-shot weaponry on veterans and himself is rather fun, however having to buy militia training on everything negates most of the points savings from guard, and whilst access to lots more flak armour is good I don't seem to see many games where a 5+ save even comes into play much.

So fingers crossed for someone else with the book joining in.

Happy to once my book gets here. Somewhat on topic can you take more than one Sicaran or is it a relic 0-1 type situation?

Oh dear questions about the marines and daemons bits already.

All of the vehicles with the Infernal Relic rule much like the Sicaran for example, have a rule where if you take more than one you have to have one of the following as an HQ: Abaddon, a Warpsmith, or... a sorcerer with malefic daemonology. Obviously everyone takes a sorc anyway, so for the cost of one roll on daemonology you can take as many relics as you like within the usual constraints of a FOC. If they're the allied force the compulsory HQ must always be one of the three I listed no matter how many relics you want to take (even if it's only one). Oh and as an added bonus if the HQ in question boards a possessed vehicle you never need to roll to see if someone gets eaten though you can choose to if you're trying to get a hullpoint back and you even get to pick who dies.

I appreciate the unrelated info. Everything about this book is exciting. I'll definitely partake in the discussion once I can give the book a once over.

Hey no problem just teasing honestly anything that gives the thread life can't be a bad thing, didn't even occur to me that you overseas chaps have a longer wait to get things from Nottingham. Spent far too much time this weekend trying to figure out how to build something good with the list and my gap of knowledge in this style of army is really telling hence the thread.

So I guess maybe a bit of talk about the HQ choices beyond customisation might be useful, everyone has to take at least one command squad, this squad is one arch-demagogue and four disciples. Now your arch-demagogue is the one you can choose to upgrade to one of the guys I listed in the first post, it's optional but most people will take that option. He can also take a covenant of chaos, now these are present in several units throughout the list, however it's more important on this chap.

Obviously there's the requisite four gods choices, but the only undivided option is to not take a covenant at all, these are lowly renegades how could they draw the attention of all of the pantheon. Every unit that takes a covenant will receive a bonus related to the god in question, nurgle is 6+ FNP, khorne is re-roll to wounds in round one of CC, slaanesh is fleet, tzeentch is BS2 snapshots. Covenants can be taken in several places through the army but I'm sure they'll be covered later.

So covenants are quite flexible, but on your HQ you're also going to see some FOC changes, taking no covenant grants you access to renegade marauders (hired guns and piratey types), khorne allows a unit of blood slaughterers in elite, nurgle is a unit of blight drones in elite and/or a unit of plague zombies as a troops choice. Slaanesh is a unit of noise marines or a sonic dread as an elite, tzeentch lets you take the rather fabulous renegade spawn as a non-compulsory troops at 0-3. So lot's of customisation comes from your HQ slot and you can really cement the feel of an army from here.

As for the command squad itself, you're not limited to staying at five chaps, you can bring the unit size up to 15 with melta-costed disciples, they're a little better statwise than a lot of the list. However unlike most of the units taking more will not increase your access to weapons, the squad is limited to one special and one heavy team regardless of number. There's also the usual range of banners, voxes (they do different things here), and power weps for your warlord etc. The unit is the only source I can see of the banner of hate, the list seems to feature a range of ways of dealing with random leadership, and this is one of those, 3D6 pick the lowest on the usual oh god oh god we're all going to die and pinning checks within 12" of the banner. Overall the unit itself isn't the most exciting as it's mainly your customised Arch-demagogue providing all the interesting bits here.

Here are some of my early thoughts on the Heretics and Renegades list, in what is overall a great book, and I think pretty much essential for anyone who's into Chaos.

My outlook of it is pretty allied heavy, in the same way that CSM and CD are more or less one big toybox. But now, CSM finally have proper battlebrothers! and not just cranky daemons who dont want to party together.

-The demagogue is very interesting, because he's dirt stinking cheap, and is actually a pretty potent little force multiplyer. The big deal here is that he's an independent character, and isnt stuck with his little weeny squad like the IG commanders are. Grab a covenant, and it effects whatever unit you stick him in, including any CSM allies. BS2 snapshooting havoks, wound-rerolling berserkers or noise marines or terminators, very cheap FNP 6+ on whatever giant hoard you want, etc etc. He's also got cheap powerweapons/fists, and if you pop him in a squad with multiple characters, he's a pretty good face-smasher (just not in challenges). Slap a lascannon on his abandoned disciple squad and let it plink away from ruins, putting that BS4 to work.

-The great thing with this list is that everything starts off extremely bare bones, but can be brought back up to scratch with upgrades. This makes it crazy efficient for list building, as you can save points on useless wargear that units normally have to pay mandatory. Like you said, 5+ armour save is pretty gak, especially for units that are optimally in cover anyways. So, those costs are taken out. Same for WS2, which is 99% of the time, just as good as WS3. So for those giant melee blobs, more points saved. The more you upgrade, the less efficeint they become to say, regular IG, but you can have a nice mix of cheap chaff, and 'elite' veteran units, which is really interesting as far as armies go.
Even the random leadership can be pretty easily accounted for. On MSU units, its probably better, as units have just as good a chance to have above average leadership, and it means you dont have to pay for sergeants for the ld boost (again, point efficient!). But if you need a big unit to have a good ld, then voxes, enforcers, and sigils will pretty much guarantee something very decent. And failing that, grab a CSM character and pop him in for fearless, or ld10. It's just a real shame that Dark Apostles ld bubble rule only effects units specifially from the CSM codex, as this would be the real place for them to shine.

-Marauders, disciples, and veterans are all sort of weirdly similar, and have some overlapping roles (though marauders are only available to undivided lists).
Marauders I think work best as cheap, but effective melee squads. Theyve got abnormally high initiative of 4, 3 attacks apiece, wound-soaking brutes, and non-character power weapons. Plus any of the specialist choices work well with an assualt unit. Theyre squishy, sure, but they wont break the bank and they can dish out some hurt.
Diciples are obviously the ranged specialists, with BS4, but their lack of special weapon slots make them rather lackluster at it. I guess they're okay as Las/Plas fireteams, but they dont hold a candle to IG vets.
Veterans I think would work best as MSU throwaway squads, making use of the cool doctrine upgrades. Grab a meltagun and outflank or deepstrike, and annoy the hell out of your opponent with a few of these sneaky teams.

-Infantry squads are interesting because they can double down on a zillion special weapons. For peanuts, you can FLOOD the table with 10man disruption squads, packing flamers or grenade launchers, just causing a headache. That 700pt enemy deathstar will be having a real rough time as it has to chew through half a dozen 40pt cultists squads.

-mutant rabble are the go-to melee hoard, and if you beef them up a bit, they look to be pretty outstanding in that category. They've got a 2 in 3 chance to get an awesome ability of either scout, or str4 hammer of wrath, and with a few characters joined in, they can get downright silly. A sergeant can give them one coveneant, and a joined demagogue can give them another. Say... fleet and rerolls to wound. Then add in an enforcer with combat drugs, and theyve got rage. Get fancy with Huron or other infiltration traits, and suddenly 50 angry little muties are up in your opponents grill, throwing down more attacks than a bus full of orks. They're not always reliable in HOW they'll be effective in combat, but they should always be able to drown something in clawing, biting, corpses.

-Ogryns seem interesting, but insanely expensive. I guess with some added characters you could make one hell of a footslogging deathstar. With 4+ armour of 5+ FNP they can get pretty durable.

-Renegade sentinel squadrons are like killa-kans, but half the cost. 20 clams for a walker??? That's crazy. A squad of 6 of these with rocket pods or heavy flamers would be hilarious. With AV12, theyre only slightly more expensive.

-Arvus lighters are like rhinos, except they fly. So anything you would stick in a rhino, stick it in an arvus. The idea of CSM aircav is awesome to me.

-The entirely of the heavy-support slot in the renegades lists exists entirely to drown the board in low-accuracy blast templates. hundreds and hundreds of blast templates. You thought DKOK had artillery. You aint seen nothin.
Also, heavy weapon teams running around with BS2 snapshot heavy stubbers brings a tear of joy to my eye. Finally a use for all those rambo catachans.

Can someone give a brief rundown of what the army list looks like and army wide special rules?

Man i'm tired of waiting for my copy of IA13. I ordered last monday with express too.

Looks interesting.

I'm a big fan of non-marine chaos. I've been bulking up Helcults for a while - again, fearless not-quite-guardsmen are very nice indeed.

If they're like the old Renegades & Heretics list, the major weakness is the random leadership - essentially, until the first time your leadership is invoked, you don't know what their leadership is. It used to be D6+4 - so anything from Grots to Lord Commissars was possible.

Yeah see this is why I need to read extra carefully didn't spot the independent character rule at all, that makes it even more interesting. The cheap power weapons are a major plus, especially when for some bonkers reason guard didn't get it.

Completely agree on the weirdly similar marauders, disciples and vets dilemma, overall though none of them seem to be worth the points, there's ways to make them better but they're all so expensive.

Mutant rabble, the problem is whilst scout is nice and all they're so easy to blind with a couple of blasts or templates thrown their way then all 50 of them are suddenly hitting on 5's. Combat drugs is definitely something to expand on, for the cost of a rhino you can add an enforcer to any squad granting it combat drugs to give any unit rage on the charge, on a small squad that's not much of a difference but on the size of blobs available it gets fun quickly.

I was really hoping Ogryns were good on the initial reports but I'm just not seeing it, though if you do take them the armour and FNP are a must, as is a chaos hound, that extra initiative combined with the rule increasing the chances or running things down should mean more splattered units.

Renegade sentinels are cheap but the AV12 isn't just slightly more expensive and they have dropped a point of BS, to put it in context for those without the book to make them equivalent BS and armour to an IG sentinel you'd have to take a full unit of 6 with both upgrades and you just break even with the guard dex in points. Might be worth just camo-cloaking them and sticking them behind tanks.

Yeah the heavy support section, this is where we want to be, imagine if you will every tank in the guard dex but with a point drop equivalent to a melta, not bad. But then the artillery pieces come along, earthshaker batteries at a rhino and two meltas, rapier laser destroyers at two meltas, quad launchers at three meltas. This list most certainly offers a lot in the way of massive quantities of punishing artillery fire.

Like I hit upon random leadership may well be in but there's so many ways to mitigate it now, HQ can take a banner allowing you 3D6 take the lowest bubble, lot's of command units can take a vox allowing other units to use their leadership within 12", vox casters for the same points as guard allow a reroll on the Ld dice when you decide it, fanatic allows you to roll two take the highest for the same check.

Well, the massed artillery isn't a surprise: this army is intended to take over from the Defenders of Vraks list.

Plus it's a good idea - if a lot of units have lower BS, then blast weapons where you don't have to be especially precise to do some damage are a good call.

Are blind weapons really that common where you play?

Ah I can see how you'd misunderstand that, I was referencing the mutants, the same table that gives them acute senses and scout also makes every blast, barrage or heavy weapon fired at them count as having blind. The whole table is basically three results of good thing with corresponding bad thing.

As the initiative test uses the highest in the unit, a CSM lord will pretty much negate any blind effects at init5. Even at init 3, theyl still ignoring it half the time. Once theyre in combat, nothing will be hitting them, and theyre free to grind down their target/s over the next few turns.

For the sentinels, low bs is largely irrelevant for flamers and rocket pods. For a little more than a russ, you can get 6x largeblast str4 templates, and 12 hullpoints. For under 300, theyre all AV12 or stealthy. Any way you cut it, thats a steal.

Hadn't even considered flamers, or rocket pods for that matter, seems a lot of weapon profiles are missing from the book which is the main criticism, shouldn't need several other books to reference as I didn't even know what rocket pods did, so as with all blasts in this list the point saving is perfect. Though I'd be more inclined to take wyverns if heavy support isn't completely full if they're a 1-5 per slot choice, one 5" blast for three meltas cost or four twin linked ignores cover shred small blasts for 25 more. Saying that though you at least seem more familiar with these sorts of lists and it's all new ground for me.

That and I really wasn't coming from it as an allied force point of view, though since I do have a large chaos marines catalogue to pick from it would make sense. Where would you go in terms of troops, I see you favour a mutant horde for one choice but how about the other? Oh and would a mechanised force be a good choice or is it footguard all the way.

I don't think mechanizing is this army's strong point. Disciples are no IG veterans, and nothing else really sticks out to me as needing a chimera. Keep em cheap, keep em numerous.

For basic troops, I'd run oodles of single infantry squads. 3-5 in a single troops choice, and they work as excellent speedbump and chaff units. 6 or 7 squads, and then fill the rest of the list with hard-hitting armour (or allied CSM/CD beasties). I used to do the same thing with IG and it always worked nicely for me. Except renegades do it even better.
-Theyre a lot cheaper
-They get two special weapons per 10, so theyre always a thorn. The enemy can't just let them crawl around the entire game without them getting some licks in, which forces them to at least dedicate some forces to them.
-Theyve got ccw and pistols, which makes them at least not total rubbish in combat. As bs2, you arent hitting with lasguns anways.
-random leadership has just as much chance at being higher than normal guardsmen. Killing those last two ld10 renegades just to get them out of the way is a pain for your opponent.
-Theyre MSU to the extream, so they go everwhere and grab objectives, and generally get in the way. Sometimes they might kill a few models, but theyre mostly to just throw wrenches in anything your opponent is trying to do. Let your tanks and artillery do all the heavy lifting.

I don't have the book by myself yet, but from what I read here and there it seems pretty awful, to be honest.

The vehicles list has the Sicaran, which is good, the hellblade/helltalon (always confuse them, the cheapest one) which is a bargain but occupies the single most crowded slot for both CSM and daemons, so it is quite difficult to use.
A part from that there's a bunch of overpriced mediocre vehicles: the contemptor which costs as much as a land raider to shoot 8 str 8 vp 4 shots, the nerfed drop pod which costs thrice as much, the sonic dreadnought that must be stationary to shoot 2 blastmasters and costs 20 points more than an heldrake.... pitiful.

The renegade list also seems pretty weak from what I've read:
No named special character... otherwise it risked to be a funny and spicy list.
Most HQ don't seem that good to me... even master of the horde... maybe they'll come back, but seems to me that they'll die so easily that they'll barely last one turn more.
Leman Russes without Pask or even a tank commander are nothing exception, not to mention that they compete with the wyvern for that lone heavy slot if you take them as allies.
2 special weapons per 10 veterans is useless, while 2 special weapons in a platoon of BS2 is pretty much useless, most of the time you won't land a shot, let alone wound something.
T5 Spawns are pretty much useless, they need T6 to be viable...
The only interesting thing seems to be the cheaper Wyvern, being twin-linked and often firing at BS1 make BS2 not that bad.

Please, show me that I'm utterly wrong because I hoped for really much more.
And don't tell me that "it's great because now chaos has a lot of exciting options!".
The options were there before, just 80% of them were dispersed in multiple books. And the codex already offers lot of exciting option, the only problem is that only a couple of them is good even for casual fluffy lists..

Does Chaos get access to all artillery in the AM book through this FW book?

As far as I know, this is the renegade HS list:

Heavy Support
Renegade Tank Squadron (All Russ variants, BS2, 1-3, can upgrade to BS3)
Renegade Artillery Squadron (Basilisk and Medusa, BS2, 1-3, can upgrade to BS3)
Renegade Strike Battery (Griffons and Wyverns, 1-5, BS2, can upgrade to BS3)
Renegade Hydra Battery (BS2, upgrades to BS3, 1-3)
Renegade Bombard Battery (1-3 Colossus, BS2 upgradeable to BS3)
Renegade Heavy Ordnance Battery (immobile Earthshakers, can upgrade to Medusa Siege Guns, 1-3, usual BS stuff)
Renegade Support Squad (Weapons Teams, 3-6)
Renegade Rapier Laser Destroyer Battery (1-3)
Renegade Field Artillery Battery (1-4 Heavy Quad Launchers or Heavy Mortars, usual BS stuff)

I'm not entirely sure what you wanted? A book full of broken units that put the old heldrake to shame?
Of course its not that, and thank god.

To sum up the list: cheap, unreliable troops and inexpensive armor. Neither of these things are bad, all things considered.

If I had to run this list, it would probably be as an armored column or as an ally to a CSM force where the renegades simply replace cultists as meatshields and bring cheap ordnance.

 McGibs wrote:
I'm not entirely sure what you wanted? A book full of broken units that put the old heldrake to shame?
Of course its not that, and thank god.

Something on par with AM/SM/Orks would have been a good start.
Take the renegades and heretics:

CONS:
- no named HQs (ok, Pask may be overpowered, but at least an heretic version of yarrick would have been fun)
- no orders (and don't even try to say they don't matter)
- no priest (if the enforcers are close to what they were before, they are a nerfed version of a commissar)
- no primaris psyker (really, that random list is so ugly i don't even consider it.. malediction blocked by fearless/resisted by stubborn and ATSKNF means that no unit ever will be affected, single blast on a 12" range means you'll cast your only psychic power once in the game, the blessing is useless)
- no tank commander
- can't take LR squadron as HQ choice
- if you take them as allies you either take a LR squadron or a Wyvern, can't take both... but you can with standard AM

PROS:
- BS2 wyvern is 10 points cheaper.

I can't understand your excitement. Why should I want to play this crappy list?
There's no reason in using this list over the AM list. Not even for fun... you've the same base units, with much less options, much less tactics and on average much less effective. You want to play an horde army?
Take 50 conscripts with a priest and a primaris pskyer....
The sad thing is that the whole book is on the same level. What does it give to you?

1) Spartan, we already had it. Did they give it the dozer blade at the very least? Without that I hardly see any reason to take it. Maybe it's me, but my LR WITH dozer blade has the bad habit to be immobilzed on turn 1 or 2...
2) Daemon Lords, already had it and for biggest game only.
3) Sicaran, no complain about that.
4) Hellblade/Helltalon, as I said before, the cheapest one is good.
5) The dreadclaw is fun. But at 100 pts and AV12 doesn't make any sense. You either use it for something very good (Kharn), knowing it won't reach turn 2, or you use it for something cheap, meaning you're spending too much on a transport.

Apart from that everything else is either completely useless/huge overpriced.

I think the main problem is that you try to make a direct comparison to IG, and they do not translate directly.

They are about flooding the field with cheap fodder in ways even IG would find wasteful.
They are not "unlock IG as allies for CSM", they are their own army that is to IG as CSM are to codex marines.

Orders? these are rebels, heretics and bands of mutants, not an organized bunch.
Characters? none of them is individually noteworthy.

Is a mass of random rabble of mutants and heretics that use stolen equipment in their pitiful "revolution" against the imperium with hopes that the powers of chaos will assist them, and they play as such.

I love the list. it works, its has its own style and I might actually branch out to this army and start my journey to chaos.

Sooo... what you wanted was IG. They have a book for that.

BoomWolf wrote:I think the main problem is that you try to make a direct comparison to IG, and they do not translate directly.

They are about flooding the field with cheap fodder in ways even IG would find wasteful.
They are not "unlock IG as allies for CSM", they are their own army that is to IG as CSM are to codex marines.

Orders? these are rebels, heretics and bands of mutants, not an organized bunch.
Characters? none of them is individually noteworthy.

McGibs wrote:Sooo... what you wanted was IG. They have a book for that.

You misunderstood me, I was saying something different.
Basically they took conscripts, swapped the lasgun for pistol/cc and removed a tremendous amount of benefits (no cheap zealot+reroll wounds, no 4++ invuln save, no reroll to hit, no orders, worse artillery to backup, less complimentary options, less ally choices, etc... ).
This is ok, because it's a different list. It HAD to be that way. 100% agree with you on that.

But since they still cost as much as the conscripts, you have to give something more. Otherwise you have a crappy Imperial Guard list that every time you compete with another Imperial Guard player on the same level will 100% defeat you.
What did they give?
FNP 6+ on a T3 model?
A chance to recover a 12" ranged random-yet-low-on-average discipline that moves 6"? So even if I recover it, chances are that it won't reach the objective anyway, while it's almost sure it won't do any damage due to being out of range.

The fact is that this list will work just in your showcase or against a vastly inferior player.

And that is not the correct way to design a list. Or are you saying that just because they are rebels they must suck?
Just tell it to the French king or to the Russian Zar...

Characters? none of them is individually noteworthy.

This does not make sense at all.
Every rebellion in human history had its leader.
Warhammer fluff is full of charismatic/powerfull renegades that turn entire star systems upside down for decades if not centuries.

Diablix you seem to be missing large parts of the pro's list, sure a 10 point cheaper Wyvern is indeed nice, but then there's also the 20 point cheaper earthshaker, medusa, heavy quad and heavy mortar gun carriages and rapier laser destroyers in a game where artillery pieces are almost universally superior to the vehicle equivalents.

Named HQ's are hardly a major element of a lot of lists and many of them throughout the various codexes are considered overcosted trash, yeah there's a couple of decent ones in the AM codex but this isn't meant to be the AM codex. There are however a large number of choices for your warlord to customise army theme, it's about time we had something like a Heretek in an actual list as a proper warlord.

Why are you trying to compare priests and enforcers they're not supposed to do the same thing, though a commisar that can provide rage to a 50 man blob for only 35 points as well as his other abilities is nothing to sniff at.

In fact almost all of your complaints seem to be that it isn't an AM list, it isn't meant to be, yes some units are costed higher when compared to an AM list but others are costed lower, you're still trying to build an AM list with it rather than focusing on the different strengths it can bring. A lot of your pro's you mention are also from allying in space marines or other imperials. How about scenarios allying in chaos marines or daemons, maybe you'd like to bring be'lakor for guaranteed invisibility who needs that 4++ anyway then. Or maybe instead of using those 100 point dreadclaws you'd like to use the 55 point arvus lighters to drop in melta chosen instead.

Everyone is still figuring out the lists strengths, I'm sure someone will find a way to break something, until then try to actually enjoy the theme a little.

They also added tons of things.

6+ fnp is one of many, "win by throwing more dice" assault drug injected huge mutant squads, get BS2 snap shots, some seriously spammable sentinels, cheaper tanks/artillery (who cares of BS2 when you use blasts and templates?), "send in the next wave", super ogryns, etc...

You can also have unlockable plague zombies, blight drones, noise marines, sonic dreads, blood slaughterers , chaos spawn

Why are you trying to compare priests and enforcers they're not supposed to do the same thing, though a commisar that can provide rage to a 50 man blob for only 35 points as well as his other abilities is nothing to sniff at.

I was comparing it to the commissar, as a matter of fact.
And if it's still like the old version you pass a single leadership test by executing the champion. After that it's useless. Is it still that way? I suppose so, seeing how little has changed...
And 35 points to provide rage to a blob which is likely to be down to 20 models once it reaches close combat is RIDICOLOUSLY overpriced. We're talking of WS2 Str 3 VP - models....

In fact almost all of your complaints seem to be that it isn't an AM list

My complaints are related to the fact that you get a crappier version of AM units without nothing worthy to compensate for the losses. Hence it is a matter of fact a weaker version of one of the less competitive lists to be allied with one of the worst codices of the game. Cool

maybe you'd like to bring be'lakor for guaranteed invisibility who needs that 4++ anyway then

Have you ever actually tried playing Be'Lakor against.. let's say, a competent ork player with lots of bikes/deffkoptas?
Did it survive more than one turn against their usual billion of twinlinked Str 5 shots?
Notice that I'm speaking of Orks... shooting...

6+ fnp is one of many, "win by throwing more dice" assault drug injected huge mutant squads, get BS2 snap shots, some seriously spammable sentinels, cheaper tanks/artillery (who cares of BS2 when you use blasts and templates?), "send in the next wave", super ogryns, etc...

Ogryns.. 55pts each? for a T5 model? really?
They would work if they weren't supposed to reach close combat, were most specialized CC units do actually spam Str10 weapons...
6+ fnp.. not only you save 1 wound every 6, but 80% of the shots of shooty lists are str 6 or higher, so I miss the point of it.
BS2 snapshots on a list that shots with... laspistols? Not to mention that most heavy weapons are templates, hence can't be snapshotted at all.
Spammable sentinels are an option that is worth considering, but we're most likely speaking of a BS2 multilaser, which will likely land 1 Str Vp - hit. Not that excited. Everything else is likely to not land at all.
T5 Spawns? Please guy, try to play a match with 15 T5 Spawn. Then repeat with T6 Spawns. I'm eager for your comments on that.
Finally, it may be me, but I don't find AM large blast competitive at all, too luck-dependent and don't play them even with standard AM. Can't see why I should start now that are even worse...

I also see you're ignoring everything positive I mentioned without addressing it at all.

I guess you also don't have access to the list and are basing everything off of rumour or bits you've seen confirmed from the way you're speaking, the enforcers are a 0-5 choice distributed as you wish from HQ. They add +1 Ld to any unit they're in and they can execute a model that is always of your choosing to re-roll a morale or Ld test as with any reroll you can only do it once per roll but it's certainly not a once ever.

Again you're clearly complaining without access to the list, the renegade infantry platoons getting one special per 5 is huge by itself, you can upgrade the whole unit (of up to 30) to BS3 for only the cost of a meltagun and they'll still be considerably cheaper than the AM squad even then. The benefit is in the cost, people think horde-guard has a lot of bodies, you ain't seen nothing yet.

Oh and alright you want to go with an ork deffkoptas example (because after all you totally see that all the time), those same units are going to be annihilated by the volume of fire and artillery this list brings, if they want to waste all their shots trying to kill be'lakor that's fine too he's provided a wonderful distraction. You'll also notice anyone playing chaos is almost universally still bringing him so it's not like you can somehow make out he's not a good unit.

Cheer up fella it's not all bad, maybe once you've read the book you'll be able to see that

 Ignatius-Grulgor wrote:
I also see you're ignoring everything positive I mentioned without addressing it at all.

Which are the positive parts that I didn't adress? I must have missed them...

I guess you also don't have access to the list and are basing everything off of rumour or bits you've seen confirmed from the way you're speaking, the enforcers are a 0-5 choice distributed as you wish from HQ. They add +1 Ld to any unit they're in and they can execute a model that is always of your choosing to re-roll a morale or Ld test as with any reroll you can only do it once per roll but it's certainly not a once ever.

I've already said that I don't have my copy yet. Yes, as I already said I'm basing what I'm saying on what I've seen on a video review, read on 3 different reviews, read on 4 different forum threads and asked first hand to people that have the rules. I believe I've a decent picture of the "codex" right now. Although as I already said I'm here also because I'm hoping to be proven wrong, while I'm waiting for my copy.
What I said was the old rule for the enforcers, I'm happy they've improved that.

Again you're clearly complaining without access to the list, the renegade infantry platoons getting one special per 5 is huge by itself, you can upgrade the whole unit (of up to 30) to BS3 for only the cost of a meltagun and they'll still be considerably cheaper than the AM squad even then. The benefit is in the cost, people think horde-guard has a lot of bodies, you ain't seen nothing yet.

It doesn't seem that huge to me. Either you take 10 and put them in a chimera (which is 2, worse than 3 offered by the veterans) or you take more than 12 by foot. This leaves the sniper rifle (okay, nice, but wouldn't define it huge as you said) or the plasmagun, which won't shot the first two turns, on average. The other weapons are way too short ranged to be effective on a platoon that goes by foot

Oh and alright you want to go with an ork deffkoptas example (because after all you totally see that all the time), those same units are going to be annihilated by the volume of fire and artillery this list brings, if they want to waste all their shots trying to kill be'lakor that's fine too he's provided a wonderful distraction. You'll also notice anyone playing chaos is almost universally still bringing him so it's not like you can somehow make out he's not a good unit.

We have a totally different view regarding Be'Lakor, probably because or local meta is totally different. In my experience ad deffkoptas/bikers heavy list is not that easily annihilated by IG artillery, however I hope I'll prove myself wrong when I'll try this list. I'm not really optmist, however.

First off, you really don't have a base to contribute to this discussion if youre not even up to date on the stuff thats being discussed. Get the list, inform yourself of what the hell the rules ACTUALLY are instead of basing them on your own assumptions. It's like making a court case against someone who keeps bringing up outdated laws from the 1920s.

Second, as has been pointed out numerous times, all your 'Cons" are purely based as IG analogues, with imperial analogue combinations (add priests, add azreal, add primaris, etc etc). This is an entirely different set of combinations that no one has really had the time to figure out yet. Internal combinations between itself, and between the other two chaos codices. Imperial armies dont get things like fearless chaos-lords, or or massivly fast assualt choices like spawn, seekers or hounds. They dont get monsterous creatures to throw into the mix. It's different. The same analogues arent there, there are different ones.

Third, you keep shooting down perfectly valid high points because you see them in a vacuum. X sucks because Y can defeat it. Welcome to warhammer 40k, where things have counters. All tanks suck when deepstriking meltagunners drop down next to them. All 2+ armour sucks when plasma is shooting at them. All hoards suck when theyre being squashed by templates or blasts that ignore cover. And if they dont have a counter, then theyre usually horribly unbalanced. That's some pretty flawed logic right there.

You also have some trouble with scale (again, the whole vacuum thing). 10 guardsmen with two specials isn'nt that impressive, youre right. 100 guardsmen with twenty special weapons will get some licks in.
Lets look at some examples:
Infantry squads can be taken in 3-5 squads per troop slot, and are 2pts cheaper than a guardsman. Pretty much everything in the game defeats 5+ armour anyways, and they wont be shooting that much. Theyve each got pistols and ccws, and can take a special per 5. Because of their low BS, you give them flamers or grenade launchers (also assault weapons, handy). You can take three of these squads (one troop choice) for 120pts. For just under 500 points, youve got TWELVE independent squads of the little bastards running around the board, blocking enemy movement, providing cover, tying up units in close combat , and generally being a giant pain in the ass. Then youve got plenty of points to add in artillery, tanks, aircraft, allied chaos beasties, deathstarts, etc etc. You control the board.

Another example, mutant rabble. Same pointcost, but can take units of 50 of them. For the cost of 3 IG squads. Again, pistols and CCWs. And they've got a 1 in 3 chance to get scout and acute senses (and get blinded a lot, but that can be delt with), and a 1 in 3 chance to have str4 hammer of wrath. Then for the cost of a plasmagun, you can give all 50 of them fleet. Or shred in first round of combat. Or both, if you add in a demagogue. Add an enforcer (who have 2w, and can throw out 6 power weapon attacks on the charge, by the by) and now the entire thing has rage.
So, 50 mutants with up to 4 attacks each on the charge, with fleet or shred, and with scout or hammer of wrath (or fear... woo), and rage (and some power weapon attacks) for around 200 points.
And then (if you really wanted to model them), you stick 4 or 5 of them in a list, with points to spare. Ork green hoard players would be squeeling with glee if they had that ammount of bodies.
Pop in a chaos lord, and theyre fearless.

I'm not really optmist, however.

No kidding.