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It's hard to picture how a viral version of Tyranids would actually be viable as a species, at least in the way it's presented in the fluff. There are a lot of natural obstacles for viruses that limit the impact they can have. I imagine there are other challenges they would face in an interplanetary context that make viral delivery the least efficient mechanism for the survival of the species.

Here's the factors I see that would make viral Tyranids impossible.

1) Scale - An interstellar delivery mechanism that operates at the scale the Tyranids do would be extremely hard to operate reliably. Viruses aren't really capable of travelling independently from their environment, so there would still need to be something that carries the virus from system to system. This mechanism would have to be hardened to the perils of extreme temperatures, radiation and other affects of long range space travel, to a degree where it can protect microscopic organisms with a minimum amount of loss. I would argue it's harder to protect a single organism in this environment than a biodiverse culture capable of adapting to changing conditions.

2) Fragility - Viruses are resilient in the body but extremely fragile out in the open. One of the challenges this organism would face is durability, and what happens when it doesn't initially find a host organism to attack. The virus simply would not survive outside of areas that are teaming with life, which limits the kinds of planets it could target and ultimately the reach it could have. More complex organisms do not suffer from this drawback, thus giving them a purpose within the Tyranid biomass.

3) Protocols - Organisms develop defenses in response to threats, it's just how they work. For a relatively sophisticated civilization, it's not as hard to contain a virus as it would be to contain a giant swarm of beasts capable of destroying other parts of the infrastructure. If you think about it, a virus is not going to be able to destroy your water purifier, but a ripper could (and then it could get you.) Thus, which is the more efficient organism?

 Deadshot wrote:
Except that Nids have neither glass nor titanium. Having a Non-organic element to the Nid race would defeat their concept design of an entirely organic species.

You realise that a lot of the materials which make up living things are "nonorganic" right?

The examples I gave were just that, examples. Examples of how you could produce large scale inorganic structures with organic processe.

You still haven't mentioned a suitable transport and storage system that the Nids can actually use. They don't have anything Non-organic that can't be affected by the virus.

There is not a significant distinction between organic and non-organic as you seem to think. Even using entirely "organic" material, a barrier can still be constructed. Coral and bone are extremely similar and such an organic structure can be used to deposit an airtight container to store the living virus. Once the structure is completed, the living components die leaving only the dead material, which a virus cannot utilise.

That can be deadly but its still the actual virus digesting any and all biological material that makes it deadly. The firestorm helps to decimate the survivors, that's all.

Viruses do not digest anything

They work by infiltrating living cells and using them to manufacture new copies of the virus, and possibly other materials as well (imagining a virus which encodes for the cell to produce lots of enzymes which attack proteins, resulting in the enzymes helping to "dissolve" the creature infected).

Tyranids and Life Eater don't mix. The virus would destroy all Tyranids. If the ship made one that Nids are immune to then it would no longer be the Life Eater.

No true life eater

You are somewhat missing the point I am making - regardless of the source of the virus, if the tyranids had its genetic code and structure on file, they would be able to adapt it to work for them, deploy it, and then move in once the organic matter on the planet had all been consumed by the virus.

So, they can either come up with it themselves, which would be extremely simple given the genetic engineering the hive mind already does, or they could, say, find fragments of the virius left over in a sheltered spot of an exterminates world, then build up their own version from there.

The reasons they don't are entirely fluff based. There are more than enough hints in the fluff and actual science that show the tyranids would be more than capable of it.

Farseer Anath'lan wrote:
There are a number of potential reasons that the tyranids haven't developed the Life Eater virus.

1. First and foremost, ruins the tyranids as a race.
2. It is possible that they are unable to store it, although they should be able to store it in a vacuum.
3. It is easier to stop a virus then it is to stop an invasion, especially for advanced races. Quarantine, direct methods, highly developed immune systems. Also, a sealed dome society like exists on the gas planets of the Imperium, would be immune.
4. Is the Hive Mind sentient, or does it work like an algorithm? If it works like an algorithm all it will do is produce a variety of organisms and develop the ideal specimen from process of elimination, quite literally.
5. It might prove difficult for the virus to kill everything and transport the biomass to the hive ship. It might possibly result in a greater net loss of biomass.

Some reasons they might not have evolved the life eater virus, although I agree that the Tyranids are going about subjugating and devouring the Universe in a very inefficient way.

1. Agreed.
2. LE virus has a lifespan of about 10 minutes at most without a host organism to devour. It dies pretty quick once it runs out of victims or in a vacuum.
3. Domes and quarantine can work. The issue with the LE is it only needs 1 cell to get throuhgh a microscopic crack in a dome to destroy the entire popuulation. Also, LE has no immunity. It doesn't infect a host and become a parasite. It devours a host in a matter of seconds, there is a 100% mortality rate and there is no immunity.
4. No idea. Likely its an instinctive thing that it knows what works best. Like how spiders instinctively evolved the ability to create strands of silk strong that steel gram for gram.
5. No idea.

It's because they wouldn't be a playable army then. It's part of the suspension of disbelief in the setting.

MarsNZ wrote:
The same reason the Imperium raises armies in the billions and ships them to ground conflicts across the galaxy when they have a navy capable of destroying entire planets readily available.

Fluff actually has a good excuse for this. Basically, the imperium values planets more than billions of soldiers. The imperiums only infinite commodity are bodies.

 Deadshot wrote:

Farseer Anath'lan wrote:
There are a number of potential reasons that the tyranids haven't developed the Life Eater virus.

1. First and foremost, ruins the tyranids as a race.
2. It is possible that they are unable to store it, although they should be able to store it in a vacuum.
3. It is easier to stop a virus then it is to stop an invasion, especially for advanced races. Quarantine, direct methods, highly developed immune systems. Also, a sealed dome society like exists on the gas planets of the Imperium, would be immune.
4. Is the Hive Mind sentient, or does it work like an algorithm? If it works like an algorithm all it will do is produce a variety of organisms and develop the ideal specimen from process of elimination, quite literally.
5. It might prove difficult for the virus to kill everything and transport the biomass to the hive ship. It might possibly result in a greater net loss of biomass.

Some reasons they might not have evolved the life eater virus, although I agree that the Tyranids are going about subjugating and devouring the Universe in a very inefficient way.

1. Agreed.
2. LE virus has a lifespan of about 10 minutes at most without a host organism to devour. It dies pretty quick once it runs out of victims or in a vacuum.
3. Domes and quarantine can work. The issue with the LE is it only needs 1 cell to get throuhgh a microscopic crack in a dome to destroy the entire popuulation. Also, LE has no immunity. It doesn't infect a host and become a parasite. It devours a host in a matter of seconds, there is a 100% mortality rate and there is no immunity.
4. No idea. Likely its an instinctive thing that it knows what works best. Like how spiders instinctively evolved the ability to create strands of silk strong that steel gram for gram.
5. No idea.

Yeah, my big problem with life eater virus is that viruses tend to be pretty damn resilient, due to the fact that they aren't actually alive. Hell, some of them can be purified and turned into a crystalline form. They are arguably the most dangerous threat to human existence on this planet. And if it can only exist for 10 minutes or so, how does the Imperium store it? I know it's not real science, but it's annoying, because biology is my field of study, and I like to analyse things according to its rules.

Farseer Anath'lan wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Farseer Anath'lan wrote:
There are a number of potential reasons that the tyranids haven't developed the Life Eater virus.

1. First and foremost, ruins the tyranids as a race.
2. It is possible that they are unable to store it, although they should be able to store it in a vacuum.
3. It is easier to stop a virus then it is to stop an invasion, especially for advanced races. Quarantine, direct methods, highly developed immune systems. Also, a sealed dome society like exists on the gas planets of the Imperium, would be immune.
4. Is the Hive Mind sentient, or does it work like an algorithm? If it works like an algorithm all it will do is produce a variety of organisms and develop the ideal specimen from process of elimination, quite literally.
5. It might prove difficult for the virus to kill everything and transport the biomass to the hive ship. It might possibly result in a greater net loss of biomass.

Some reasons they might not have evolved the life eater virus, although I agree that the Tyranids are going about subjugating and devouring the Universe in a very inefficient way.

1. Agreed.
2. LE virus has a lifespan of about 10 minutes at most without a host organism to devour. It dies pretty quick once it runs out of victims or in a vacuum.
3. Domes and quarantine can work. The issue with the LE is it only needs 1 cell to get throuhgh a microscopic crack in a dome to destroy the entire popuulation. Also, LE has no immunity. It doesn't infect a host and become a parasite. It devours a host in a matter of seconds, there is a 100% mortality rate and there is no immunity.
4. No idea. Likely its an instinctive thing that it knows what works best. Like how spiders instinctively evolved the ability to create strands of silk strong that steel gram for gram.
5. No idea.

Yeah, my big problem with life eater virus is that viruses tend to be pretty damn resilient, due to the fact that they aren't actually alive. Hell, some of them can be purified and turned into a crystalline form. They are arguably the most dangerous threat to human existence on this planet. And if it can only exist for 10 minutes or so, how does the Imperium store it? I know it's not real science, but it's annoying, because biology is my field of study, and I like to analyse things according to its rules.

Well my only first hand reading of Virus Bombs are from Flight of the Eisenstein, so bear with me.

First off, they are stored in glass globes and loaded into warheads as payloads. That part gets them onto the planet.

Personally I would assume they freeze the virus in storage and then the heat of reentry in the warhead would thaw it out. The missile and glass shatters on impact and spreads the virus.

I've always assumed the Tyranids DO employ life eater or similar viral biotechnology, 'off-camera'. When it gets used, there's noone left to talk about it, and the imperium just finds a world scoured of life when next they visit.

I assume that Tyranid invasions (games) take place in instances where deploying the virus isn't viable or doesn't work for REASONS. The interesting life-forms are sealed away in something that needs opening; the virus-spores are plasma-ed on entry; etc.

 Deadshot wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
The Life Eater would destroy the Tyranids. How would they store it?

The same way the Imperium would. As well, the tyranids can store the genetic makeup of the virus as information for later production.

The Imperium uses glass globes (Source: Flight of the Eisenstien). The Tyranids don't have glass globes or anything non-organic. You also can't store it in a vacuum or anything because it burns itself up without anything to destroy. You can do that but the same problem remains in how you get it from the Production line to the surface without it eating your ship. How do you get it from the ship to surface without destroying the Mycetic spore? And it would still munch all the nids on the planet. Its not much of a Life Eater virus if something is immune.

How do the nids shield themselves against the bioplasma, massively strong acids, etc?

Glass, or a biological residue with the properties of glass would be child's play for the tyranids to create. And with the genetic code in its memory, the hive mind can alter it in any way it sees fit. And as mentioned, biomass is biomass. As long as the nids recover it at the end, the energy requirements used to shape it in the first place as minimal against gaining the resources of a planet - mid invasion going badly? Virus bomb the planet and recover the too that the invasion force has turned into along with the defenders

The virus would still eat a bioresidue with the properties of glass. The virus attacks cells. Anything organic or biological in nature is destroyed by it.
It can, but making Nids immune isn't a good idea, because then it wouldn't be the Life Eater. The Imperium could cover themselves in Tyranid flesh or blood and be immune, invisible to the Virus. Marines could have sealed suits (Power Armour has small openings like the mouthgrill, which FotEisenstien shows, the Virus can enter) like Terminator Armour. Tau, Eldar and Necrons are all capable of sealing their armour or be immune. The only ones it would really affect i the Orks and IG, if the IG didn't have sealed Hazmat suits or cover themselves in Nid blood.

The whole point and deadliness of the Life Eater is that there is no immunity and it has a 100% mortality rate. Making Nids immune just kicks them up over 9000(!!!!) in terms of threat level.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Re: Bioplasma; Its all hand wavium and plot holes there. Plenty of other Sci-fi universes do the same. I remember Starship Troopers have the massive artillery beetle that fired bioplasma at ships in orbit.

Re: Acid: by having flesh and skin that are massively strong Alkalines and neutralise the acid. Same way Xenomorphs do I would suppose.

There's a passage in the BFG Tyranid section about Life-Eater torpedoes being fired at a Hive Fleet. Nothing happens. A few days later the Tyranid ships unleash viral weapons with suspiciously similar properties...



Anyway as to the whole "why no Life-Eater?" approach, Tyranids do unleash enormous levels of viral and bacterial agents onto a world as they Tyrannoform. As a campaign draws on and the Tyranids take root, the air becomes toxic and nature turns against itself.

The Dropsite Massacres clearly show why you need more than just a virus though... there were plenty of survivors of the Life-Eater.

Tyranids can easily produce glass, at the very least. Glass is heated sand, and one source of sand is pulverised coral/shell. Tyranids can make shells, and they can make pyrovores, so they can make glass.

**EDIT: Further internet research indicates that common types of glass range from 67-97% Silicon Dioxide (quartz sand), and 0-8% Calcium Carbonate (coral/shell). So the tyranids would REQUIRE MORE MINERALS

MarsNZ wrote:
The same reason the Imperium raises armies in the billions and ships them to ground conflicts across the galaxy when they have a navy capable of destroying entire planets readily available.

IoM want to colonize , she does that is she found chaos in a planet

About nids: see real-live Ebola.Its a virus.If we found cure we are ok from it.If nids do it we can find a cure and then destroy their hive mind before a new virus comes.If virus used, no big cratures so it could be realy easy .Remeber that the longer fight, biger nids.Life eater it cant be storage because of his nature, it cant be curerd but every living being dies, nids can make bio-weapons so an do a BIO-glass , same in the eye,not same for the Eater.Every similar it can be "cured"

 eskimo wrote:

But yeah, RL logic vs 40k.

In deep, both are the same, after all real life hasnt logic too

 Harriticus wrote:
It's because they wouldn't be a playable army then. It's part of the suspension of disbelief in the setting.

MarsNZ wrote:
The same reason the Imperium raises armies in the billions and ships them to ground conflicts across the galaxy when they have a navy capable of destroying entire planets readily available.

Fluff actually has a good excuse for this. Basically, the imperium values planets more than billions of soldiers. The imperiums only infinite commodity are bodies.

There is good reason. Reason being that most planets belong to the IOM. Why would they destroy their own habitats, living space, economic resources and military recruitment points? And why would they destroy an Eldar Maiden/Exodite or Ork held world when they can subjugate it and put it to use? Especially when soldiers are a dime a dozen. Literally.

I never liked the Tyranid fluff, too powerfull, too hyped, and with not many fluff options.

Come on guys, this is a race of space aliens that travels on giant living ships that propel themselves at light speed... using giant farts. The Hive Crone is built for ship-to-ship combat in outer space... using wings (which need air to operate). It's all rather silly if you try to apply real world logic to it.

Asmodas wrote:
Come on guys, this is a race of space aliens that travels on giant living ships that propel themselves at light speed... using giant farts. The Hive Crone is built for ship-to-ship combat in outer space... using wings (which need air to operate). It's all rather silly if you try to apply real world logic to it.

Hey, if we can't make these space aliens fit neatly to real logic in our galaxy of bioengineered Nietzschean super-soldiers, Cockney fungus-aliens, stuck-up Tolkien rejects and even more stuck-up vampire rejects, plus immortal robot zombies and bloodthirsty diseased scheming hedonists, what's the point to it all?

Viruses have a bad tendency to mutate. Maybe the Tyranids are wary of unleashing something that might come back to bite them in the ankle next month? Or it might kill off all the bacteria the Tyranids need to break down biomatter to substances they can use?

 koooaei wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Evolution works towards the minimum needed, not towards the optimal. The deffeciences of human evolution can be seen in our obesity rates, for example.

Evolution works towards the stuff that works. If it's capable to survive - it's in. But the tyranids are gene sculptors, so they can add stuff they need here and there at will. Not sure if they actually can produce something like a virus at all cause it's way more complex than grow a claw or venom glands. We need a nid fluff expert.

\

If the Hive Mind can apply itself to perform specific tasks like engineering a virus then, yes, they could easily make one. They could make one that, say, targets proteins on the surface of human neurons. They wouldn't need to waste energy on Tyranid gribblies nearly as often Just unleash a virus, eat up the dead population and move on. The only problem would be facing more advanced opponents with Hazmat equipment.

koooaei wrote:Bacteria and viruses are drastically different organisms.

Like I said, not quite the same thing.

ShasORLY wrote:Are there any tales about a planets eco system (maybe a death world) fighting back a tyranid invasion by ALSO adapting to it, resulting in an "evolutionary" arms race?

It's implied that the Catachan Devil and the Fenrisian Kraken are both devolved Tyranids, although considering that the existence of both predates the first encounters with Tyranids by a considerable amount (on the scale of millenia, 'nids are really new to the galaxy), the veracity of this is questionable.

Asmodas wrote:Come on guys, this is a race of space aliens that travels on giant living ships that propel themselves at light speed... using giant farts. The Hive Crone is built for ship-to-ship combat in outer space... using wings (which need air to operate). It's all rather silly if you try to apply real world logic to it.

Aren't the Crones psychic? Besides, 'nid FTL involves Space Folds, they aren't innately capable of faster than light travel.

Coldstream wrote: Cockney fungus-aliens,

... They are not Cockney, lol. Badger from Firefly? He's Cockneyish. Orks are football hooligans, an accent group that transcends localisation but is mostly centred around manchester.

Asmodas wrote:
Come on guys, this is a race of space aliens that travels on giant living ships that propel themselves at light speed... using giant farts. The Hive Crone is built for ship-to-ship combat in outer space... using wings (which need air to operate). It's all rather silly if you try to apply real world logic to it.

Why does the Crone need to use its wings in space out of interest? If you tuck the wings in, it resembles an alien shark which could "swim" through space in the same way that larger Tyranid space-born organisms do. The wings simply come into play when the Crones enter an atmosphere.

 Coldstream wrote:
Since we're told the sole motivation of the Tyranid is merely to turn planets into a soupy morass and absorb what's left, they're really going about this in a rather inefficient manner. Instead of a endless bestiary of random BioCarniLictorThropes wouldn't they by this point (if they really have absorbed other galaxies) have just evolved into the Life-Eater Virus (or near equivalent) which seems to work quite rapidly and with little fuss on every living thing on a planet?

First problem is that resources aren't the sole motivator for the Tyranids. They are also constantly on the look-out for useful genetic material that they can assimilate and repurpose for their own ends, to the point that they have specialized bioforms specifically for DNA reclamation (Malanthropes) and processing (Norn Queens). A virus by definition destroys the genetic material of its victims by reprogramming cells with its own viral DNA or RNA, meaning the only gain Tyranids would reap from such a harvesting mechanism would be the raw materials.

I'd strongly suggest reading the Warzone Valdore book if you can get your hands on it. The entire conflict is centered on the Eldar's desire to prevent Hive Fleet Leviathan from absorbing Eldar genetic material harvested by a splinter of Hive Fleet Kraken and combining it with the Ork genetic material they have already absorbed, which in theory would allow their Norn Queens to create creatures with the toughness and numbers of Orks combined with Eldar cunning and psychic mastery.

 Coldstream wrote:

Instead of launching "mycetic spores" which eventually grow into PyroGauntiVoreTyrants which end up battling whatever lives on the planet, just have a Tyranid Hive Ship show up, shower the planet with Tyranid Virus bombs and wet/dry vacuum up the mess. No muss, no fuss, no need to risk losing.

Bit of a nitpick, but Mycetic Spores are biological drop pods. They don't grow into Tyranid organisms themselves but rather deliver fully grown and functional Tyranids to the surface from the Hive Ships floating in space. Still, it is also entirely possible that the conflicts are used by the Tyranids to both determine the viability of their prey's genetics for assimilation and as a means to further drive their own evolution. The creatures remaining at the end of the invasion will undoubtedly be the strongest of their broods and when reabsorbed at the end of the invasion their exact genetic code can be saved and used for the next batch.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
It's because they wouldn't be a playable army then. It's part of the suspension of disbelief in the setting.

MarsNZ wrote:
The same reason the Imperium raises armies in the billions and ships them to ground conflicts across the galaxy when they have a navy capable of destroying entire planets readily available.

Fluff actually has a good excuse for this. Basically, the imperium values planets more than billions of soldiers. The imperiums only infinite commodity are bodies.

There is good reason. Reason being that most planets belong to the IOM. Why would they destroy their own habitats, living space, economic resources and military recruitment points? And why would they destroy an Eldar Maiden/Exodite or Ork held world when they can subjugate it and put it to use? Especially when soldiers are a dime a dozen. Literally.

Most planets don't belong to the IOM. Not even close. It's only about a million worlds, in a galaxy with 400 billion stars alone. Imperium is a small dot in the Galaxy.

 Harriticus wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
It's because they wouldn't be a playable army then. It's part of the suspension of disbelief in the setting.

MarsNZ wrote:
The same reason the Imperium raises armies in the billions and ships them to ground conflicts across the galaxy when they have a navy capable of destroying entire planets readily available.

Fluff actually has a good excuse for this. Basically, the imperium values planets more than billions of soldiers. The imperiums only infinite commodity are bodies.

There is good reason. Reason being that most planets belong to the IOM. Why would they destroy their own habitats, living space, economic resources and military recruitment points? And why would they destroy an Eldar Maiden/Exodite or Ork held world when they can subjugate it and put it to use? Especially when soldiers are a dime a dozen. Literally.

Most planets don't belong to the IOM. Not even close. It's only about a million worlds, in a galaxy with 400 billion stars alone. Imperium is a small dot in the Galaxy.

My mistake; most planets the Imperium fight over. Which is the only ones ever seen in novels and fluff. The Tyranids have had 6 major Hive Fleets. Behemoth and Jormungandr were pretty much only a threat to the Imperium. Kraken threatened the Imperium and one Eldar Craftworld. Gorgon and Naga were vs Xenos. And Leviathan threatens everyone. So out of the 6 major Hive Fleets, 4 were major threats to the Imperium, and the ofher 2 weren't threats because they mostly targetted Xenos

TheCustomLime wrote:Evolution works towards the minimum needed, not towards the optimal.

koooaei wrote:
Evolution works towards the stuff that works. If it's capable to survive - it's in.

Evolution doesn't work towards anything if we are going to really strict about it.

Evolution doesn't have an expressed goal or purpose. It is not a process guided with any form of intention.
It is simply a logical consequence of how nature works.

Slightly pedantic of me, I know. It is a pet peeve of mine.

Steelmage99 wrote:

TheCustomLime wrote:Evolution works towards the minimum needed, not towards the optimal.

koooaei wrote:
Evolution works towards the stuff that works. If it's capable to survive - it's in.

Evolution doesn't work towards anything if we are going to really strict about it.

Evolution doesn't have an expressed goal or purpose. It is not a process guided with any form of intention.
It is simply a logical consequence of how nature works.

Slightly pedantic of me, I know. It is a pet peeve of mine.

Its pedantic but accurate. Evolution is based on Natural Selection. If its naturally incapable of surviving (or creating artificial substitutes like humans) then it dies. Saying evolution has goals or works towards anything if like saying a spilled liquid works towards making as much of a mess as possible.

I've always thought a good description of evolution is "things happen and sometimes they accidentally help a species". No idea if that's actually accurate though.

The main problem with Tyranids is that absolutely everything about them makes no sense other than to foster a race for the style of mythos that 40K is based on, that uses the biological angle. I mean, really?

Everything they have is based on the mechanics required to have a race that has a biological variant of everything that the other game races have. Heavy troops, flyers, jump-style infantry, dreadnoughts, vehicles, even titans. There is absolutely no reason a race like the Tyranids would need titans, with the relative rarity that that their opponents field such warmachines. Even their ships make no real sense if you apply real-world common sense to them.

They are fueled by the Rule of Cool, nothing more.