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Since we're told the sole motivation of the Tyranid is merely to turn planets into a soupy morass and absorb what's left, they're really going about this in a rather inefficient manner.

Instead of a endless bestiary of random BioCarniLictorThropes wouldn't they by this point (if they really have absorbed other galaxies) have just evolved into the Life-Eater Virus (or near equivalent) which seems to work quite rapidly and with little fuss on every living thing on a planet?

Instead of launching "mycetic spores" which eventually grow into PyroGauntiVoreTyrants which end up battling whatever lives on the planet, just have a Tyranid Hive Ship show up, shower the planet with Tyranid Virus bombs and wet/dry vacuum up the mess. No muss, no fuss, no need to risk losing.

Granted that wouldn't make for a fun army to paint or sell.

I suppose for fluff purposes that might lead one to consider there's another real reason behind the Tyranid, rather than simply consuming everything as there are far superior ways to go about that.

Instead of a endless bestiary of random BioCarniLictorThropes wouldn't they by this point (if they really have absorbed other galaxies) have just evolved into the Life-Eater Virus (or near equivalent) which seems to work quite rapidly and with little fuss on every living thing on a planet?

Then they wouldnt be a product line.

 Psienesis wrote:


Then they wouldnt be a product line.

Or....maybe that's the solution for GW's falling revenues! Virus models!

"You'll need to field an army of 1 million viruses for this 2000 point battle. They come in blister packs of 5 for $75."

The Tyranids are completely alien to our galaxy. Perhaps their original purpose was that they were meant to fight ground wars. I'd assume that a virus wouldn't support the Hive Mind. If it could I'd imagine it would have evolved itself in that direction.

Yes, if the Hive Mind had any common sense it would produce big airship-like creatures filled with a rapidly-replication virus a la Life Eater and just deploy those (perhaps via Mycetic Spores or some such.
Shooting them wouldn't help much as it would just help them deploy the virus although in a more local area.

Tyranid evolution has some marked advantages (mainly that it is guided by an intelligence with a goal in mind) when compared with IRL Earth evolution. It just seems that the Tyranid doesn't really take advantage of that.

Lesson #1. Applying IRL logic to 40k is a fool's errand.

 chromedog wrote:
Lesson #1. Applying IRL logic to 40k is a fool's errand.

This. So very, very much of this.

The only think I can think of is that Tyranids do not follow such logic because they may not be naturally evolved. They may just be a bastardization of something that was genetically engineered for a purpose in the galaxy that they left before coming to the Milky way, which means that their original purpose could follow some unknown logic. Maybe their basic Gaunt or Warrior forms mirror their original creator's.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
The only think I can think of is that Tyranids do not follow such logic because they may not be naturally evolved. They may just be a bastardization of something that was genetically engineered for a purpose in the galaxy that they left before coming to the Milky way, which means that their original purpose could follow some unknown logic. Maybe their basic Gaunt or Warrior forms mirror their original creator's.

This makes the most sense to me. Slave creation gone awry, sort of like the iron men, only it devouers all life.

But are they actually capable of producing viruses?

They must be able to create bacteria to be able to create digestion pools and the like, but it's not quite the same thing.

Bacteria and viruses are drastically different organisms.

Evolution works towards the minimum needed, not towards the optimal. The deffeciences of human evolution can be seen in our obesity rates, for example.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Evolution works towards the minimum needed, not towards the optimal. The deffeciences of human evolution can be seen in our obesity rates, for example.

Evolution works towards the stuff that works. If it's capable to survive - it's in. But the tyranids are gene sculptors, so they can add stuff they need here and there at will. Not sure if they actually can produce something like a virus at all cause it's way more complex than grow a claw or venom glands. We need a nid fluff expert.

There's never been a nid virus mentioned that I'm aware of. Toxins, yes.
Spores are presumably fungal, so they qualify if you want that sort of thing.

Ultimately, tyranids can shape their spawnlings however they want, but they wouldn't want to spawn anything which doesn't have enough neural tissue for the hive mind to poke and say "go that way"

Hyper-evolved bioweapons that destroy all organic matter are not particularly containable things, especially when you're on an organic starship!

Secondly, the tyranids aren't just interested in biomass soup, they also want mineral content - hence pyrovores essentially doing strip-mining of important metals, etc.

Creating a virus is not techically that different to creating a bacteria. We have engineered retrovirals to deliver gene therapies. An organism like the Tyranid hive mind could easily create a virus which turns all life into soup which could then be sucked up.

However, to the tyranids, warfare also provides an arena for strengthening and adapting its lifeforms, for testing the dna it absorbs, for examining the abilities of those it fights, etc.

Since the biomass of the spawned creatures is returned to the hive anyway, warfare is not particularly costly and its constructs can be considered as a "macro virus".

We have no idea what the origin of the tyranid is, nor its goal, nor what or how it thinks. Certainly, a biological "grey goo" method of world absorbing could be a logical place to go if humans were directing development of the tyranid evolution, but who is to say how such an alien mind works?

Plus, models are hard to make if it is just a cloud of particles


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locarno24 wrote:
Ultimately, tyranids can shape their spawnlings however they want, but they wouldn't want to spawn anything which doesn't have enough neural tissue for the hive mind to poke and say "go that way"

When talking about a mind possibly built up of trillions of creatures psychically linked together, it may well be possible to build in psychic receptors at a genetic level. It is one of those "who knows" science fiction things

Regardless, dropping virus bombs on a planet doesn't really need you to direct it as it will infiltrate pretty much everywhere.

Hyper-evolved bioweapons that destroy all organic matter are not particularly containable things, especially when you're on an organic starship!

One of the great things about designing in kill switches and tailoring viruses to not attack cells and structures which have certain cell markers expressed is that you significantly limit the ability for even a "dumb" virus to damage your own stuff, not to mention if the virus is psychically connected to the hive

Secondly, the tyranids aren't just interested in biomass soup, they also want mineral content - hence pyrovores essentially doing strip-mining of important metals, etc.

strip mining a world of minerals could be easily done with a bacterial soup, though more specialised digging and processing lifeforms in combination with the bacteria would be much faster.

1. Bacterias and viruses aren't as "cool" as masses of flesh-tearing monsters.

2. Tyranids would be too overpowered and too efficient.

 Coldstream wrote:
Since we're told the sole motivation of the Tyranid is merely to turn planets into a soupy morass and absorb what's left, they're really going about this in a rather inefficient manner.

I'm not up on current Tyranid fluff, but are we actually told this? Are Tyranids motivated to do that, or is it just something they do? If their actual motivation (if they have one) is something different, we can't really speculate on what might be the most useful form for them to take.

Also the Old Ones were Tyranids all along and all the races they created are actually vanguard organisms built to keep the galaxy in a state of constant war so no strong unified galactic state can exist to resist the hive fleet proper so there you go

The Life Eater would destroy the Tyranids. How would they store it?

 Deadshot wrote:
The Life Eater would destroy the Tyranids. How would they store it?

The same way the Imperium would. As well, the tyranids can store the genetic makeup of the virus as information for later production.

Are there any tales about a planets eco system (maybe a death world) fighting back a tyranid invasion by ALSO adapting to it, resulting in an "evolutionary" arms race?

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
The Life Eater would destroy the Tyranids. How would they store it?

The same way the Imperium would. As well, the tyranids can store the genetic makeup of the virus as information for later production.

The Imperium uses glass globes (Source: Flight of the Eisenstien). The Tyranids don't have glass globes or anything non-organic. You also can't store it in a vacuum or anything because it burns itself up without anything to destroy. You can do that but the same problem remains in how you get it from the Production line to the surface without it eating your ship. How do you get it from the ship to surface without destroying the Mycetic spore? And it would still munch all the nids on the planet. Its not much of a Life Eater virus if something is immune.

 Deadshot wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
The Life Eater would destroy the Tyranids. How would they store it?

The same way the Imperium would. As well, the tyranids can store the genetic makeup of the virus as information for later production.

The Imperium uses glass globes (Source: Flight of the Eisenstien). The Tyranids don't have glass globes or anything non-organic. You also can't store it in a vacuum or anything because it burns itself up without anything to destroy. You can do that but the same problem remains in how you get it from the Production line to the surface without it eating your ship. How do you get it from the ship to surface without destroying the Mycetic spore? And it would still munch all the nids on the planet. Its not much of a Life Eater virus if something is immune.

How do the nids shield themselves against the bioplasma, massively strong acids, etc?

Glass, or a biological residue with the properties of glass would be child's play for the tyranids to create. And with the genetic code in its memory, the hive mind can alter it in any way it sees fit. And as mentioned, biomass is biomass. As long as the nids recover it at the end, the energy requirements used to shape it in the first place as minimal against gaining the resources of a planet - mid invasion going badly? Virus bomb the planet and recover the too that the invasion force has turned into along with the defenders

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
The Life Eater would destroy the Tyranids. How would they store it?

The same way the Imperium would. As well, the tyranids can store the genetic makeup of the virus as information for later production.

The Imperium uses glass globes (Source: Flight of the Eisenstien). The Tyranids don't have glass globes or anything non-organic. You also can't store it in a vacuum or anything because it burns itself up without anything to destroy. You can do that but the same problem remains in how you get it from the Production line to the surface without it eating your ship. How do you get it from the ship to surface without destroying the Mycetic spore? And it would still munch all the nids on the planet. Its not much of a Life Eater virus if something is immune.

How do the nids shield themselves against the bioplasma, massively strong acids, etc?

Glass, or a biological residue with the properties of glass would be child's play for the tyranids to create. And with the genetic code in its memory, the hive mind can alter it in any way it sees fit. And as mentioned, biomass is biomass. As long as the nids recover it at the end, the energy requirements used to shape it in the first place as minimal against gaining the resources of a planet - mid invasion going badly? Virus bomb the planet and recover the too that the invasion force has turned into along with the defenders

The virus would still eat a bioresidue with the properties of glass. The virus attacks cells. Anything organic or biological in nature is destroyed by it.
It can, but making Nids immune isn't a good idea, because then it wouldn't be the Life Eater. The Imperium could cover themselves in Tyranid flesh or blood and be immune, invisible to the Virus. Marines could have sealed suits (Power Armour has small openings like the mouthgrill, which FotEisenstien shows, the Virus can enter) like Terminator Armour. Tau, Eldar and Necrons are all capable of sealing their armour or be immune. The only ones it would really affect i the Orks and IG, if the IG didn't have sealed Hazmat suits or cover themselves in Nid blood.

The whole point and deadliness of the Life Eater is that there is no immunity and it has a 100% mortality rate. Making Nids immune just kicks them up over 9000(!!!!) in terms of threat level.


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Re: Bioplasma; Its all hand wavium and plot holes there. Plenty of other Sci-fi universes do the same. I remember Starship Troopers have the massive artillery beetle that fired bioplasma at ships in orbit.

Re: Acid: by having flesh and skin that are massively strong Alkalines and neutralise the acid. Same way Xenomorphs do I would suppose.

A residue of glass would be glass, similarly a secretion of titanium would leave a titanium coating. Adding some kind of exothermic chemical to the secretion which reacts with air as the secretion dries would bond the titanium/glass particles together into a single sheet/structure with no living tissue (or indeed remains of tissue if the reaction is hot enough! ).

The tyranids adapting (or creating) such a virus would not be an issue for them... Nor would storing or delivering it. Creating an organism, support network, etc is far more difficult than creating a designed virus and containment system. Nor would a tyranid stuffed into your respirator save you from the disease

One of the things that makes the lifeater so dangerous is it releases a lot of gases into the air which are highly toxic, corrosive and can be easily ignighted (which is the party price of exterminatus). The corrosive nature of the byproducts of the virus, as well as the immense heat of so much biological activity further weaken a suits or bunkers integrity and can kill on their own.

The reason that the tyranids don't routinely use such weapons (or even appear to have them) is entirely fluff related, as you mention. While a lot of science fiction is handwavium, there are plenty of examples in science and nature to build on to form foundations for how things might actually work.

 SilverMK2 wrote:
A residue of glass would be glass, similarly a secretion of titanium would leave a titanium coating. Adding some kind of exothermic chemical to the secretion which reacts with air as the secretion dries would bond the titanium/glass particles together into a single sheet/structure with no living tissue (or indeed remains of tissue if the reaction is hot enough! ).

The tyranids adapting (or creating) such a virus would not be an issue for them... Nor would storing or delivering it. Creating an organism, support network, etc is far more difficult than creating a designed virus and containment system. Nor would a tyranid stuffed into your respirator save you from the disease

One of the things that makes the lifeater so dangerous is it releases a lot of gases into the air which are highly toxic, corrosive and can be easily ignighted (which is the party price of exterminatus). The corrosive nature of the byproducts of the virus, as well as the immense heat of so much biological activity further weaken a suits or bunkers integrity and can kill on their own.

The reason that the tyranids don't routinely use such weapons (or even appear to have them) is entirely fluff related, as you mention. While a lot of science fiction is handwavium, there are plenty of examples in science and nature to build on to form foundations for how things might actually work.

Except that Nids have neither glass nor titanium. Having a Non-organic element to the Nid race would defeat their concept design of an entirely organic species.

You still haven't mentioned a suitable transport and storage system that the Nids can actually use. They don't have anything Non-organic that can't be affected by the virus.

That can be deadly but its still the actual virus digesting any and all biological material that makes it deadly. The firestorm helps to decimate the survivors, that's all.

Tyranids and Life Eater don't mix. The virus would destroy all Tyranids. If the ship made one that Nids are immune to then it would no longer be the Life Eater.

There are a number of potential reasons that the tyranids haven't developed the Life Eater virus.

1. First and foremost, ruins the tyranids as a race.
2. It is possible that they are unable to store it, although they should be able to store it in a vacuum.
3. It is easier to stop a virus then it is to stop an invasion, especially for advanced races. Quarantine, direct methods, highly developed immune systems. Also, a sealed dome society like exists on the gas planets of the Imperium, would be immune.
4. Is the Hive Mind sentient, or does it work like an algorithm? If it works like an algorithm all it will do is produce a variety of organisms and develop the ideal specimen from process of elimination, quite literally.
5. It might prove difficult for the virus to kill everything and transport the biomass to the hive ship. It might possibly result in a greater net loss of biomass.

Some reasons they might not have evolved the life eater virus, although I agree that the Tyranids are going about subjugating and devouring the Universe in a very inefficient way.

Maybe the Tyranids have tried it already, and it didn't work out well for them. After all, a win for the Nids doesn't leave them with casualties once all bio mass has been absorbed. It's an effective way, plus with a loss of a hive ship another hive ship learns where the previous one went wrong.

But yeah, RL logic vs 40k.

ShasORLY wrote:
Are there any tales about a planets eco system (maybe a death world) fighting back a tyranid invasion by ALSO adapting to it, resulting in an "evolutionary" arms race?

I think that's the catachan home planet. I remember reading a book about how they had ripper-like organisms and thats how Straken got his arm nommed off

The same reason the Imperium raises armies in the billions and ships them to ground conflicts across the galaxy when they have a navy capable of destroying entire planets readily available.