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 insaniak wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
I'm reading an acknowledgement that players sometimes have models with unusually modelled bases. The correct course of action in these cases is to "feel free to mount the model on a base of appropriate size..."..

Yes, that was my point.

Your previous post seemed to be suggesting that the rule was giving permission to model stuff on unusual bases, which it isn't. It's just giving permission to replace those unusual bases with 'correct' bases.

Ah, I see what you're getting at. Yeah, it's kind of worded strangely. It seems to assume an implied permission to mount models on unusually modeled bases. I also realize that implied permissions are worth almost nothing in a permissive rule set.

 BlackTalos wrote:

If you use your Blood Angels Marines as Tactical marines for an Ultramarines Chapter for example, they need to be put on 25mm bases.

RAW, thats not true. The BRB says to use the models base that was supplied. Just because you are using those models to represent something else does not mean you don't use the base supplied with the model.

So isniak. At a tournament, how will a judge or your opponent know you're cheating if you only use metal mega nobs, current boring terminators, and metal Flashgitz, basing them on 25mm bases to model for advantage vs someone who legitimately bought them early into their production? Answer they can't. You saying all my old blood angel models that now come on 32mm bases get to stay on 25mm long after new players believe 32mm was always their correct base size? No. You use the base your unit is suppose to use. Your unit uses a new one, you use the new one. Anything else is modeling for advantage.

It is my understanding that you have three restrictions:

1) (and the most common one) Use whatever base size supplied with the model - provided you use it for the faction it was bought for

If you are using models from one faction or model range for "counts as" then:

2) You use the base size that the model you are trying to represent comes with

If your model does not come with a base:

3) Use the base size that is most appropriate for its size.

Exceptions to these rules:
-The base size for models you are using was updated since you have bought the unit

So if you are using your Blood Angels Tactical models supplied with 32mm bases, then you are only permitted to use them for Blood Angels faction CADs/formations. You are not permitted to use them "counts as" Space Marine Tacticals.

For example of 2), I am going to use Dark Elf Cold Ones for Khorne Flesh Hounds (because who doesn't like velociraptors) . Because they are supplied on those square Warhammer cavalry bases, I must reference what base size actual Flesh Hounds are mounted on and use the same. No exception there.

Example of 3): Old Khorne Lord on Juggernaught model from 2nd (or 3rd I can't remember) edition. It didn't come with a base, so I mounted mine on a 40mm because it was most appropriate: smallest base size that fit the footprint of the model.

Exception explanation: If you bought a Khorne Herald before the new release of the Khorne Daemonkin boxes, you are permitted to use the base it was supplied with; 25 mm. If you bought one after their new release, you must use the base size supplied; 32 mm. You are not required to backtrack and replace all Khorne Herald models on 32 mm, you simply have to use them for all new Khorne Heralds.

*All this is based off the rules quoted on the first page of this thread in the "model & basing" section:

"The rules in this book assume that models are mounted on the base they are supplied with. Sometimes a player may have models in his collection on unusually modelled bases. Some models aren't supplied with a base at all. In these cases (which are, in all fairness, relatively few and far between), you should always feel free to mount the model on a base of appropriate size if you wish, using models of a similar type as guidance."

So, based on the last part of the quoted rule:

The rules in this book assume that models are mounted on the base they are supplied with. Sometimes a player may have models in his collection on unusually modelled bases. Some models aren't supplied with a base at all. In these cases (which are, in all fairness, relatively few and far between), you should always feel free to mount the model on a base of appropriate size if you wish, using models of a similar type as guidance.

Can I now put Nemesor Zandrek (supplied with 28mm base) on a 40mm base, since that's what the new clampack Overlord comes with? They are "similar type" since both are technically overlords.

 House Griffith wrote:
So, based on the last part of the quoted rule:

The rules in this book assume that models are mounted on the base they are supplied with. Sometimes a player may have models in his collection on unusually modelled bases. Some models aren't supplied with a base at all. In these cases (which are, in all fairness, relatively few and far between), you should always feel free to mount the model on a base of appropriate size if you wish, using models of a similar type as guidance.

Can I now put Nemesor Zandrek (supplied with 28mm base) on a 40mm base, since that's what the new clampack Overlord comes with? They are "similar type" since both are technically overlords.

No. The part you put in bold is about if the model does not come with a base. See my point number 3. I used the 40mm base for my juggerlord because that's what other models on juggernaughts use. I used those other models as guidance for determining which base to use for my juggerlord.

FratHammer wrote:
So isniak. At a tournament, how will a judge or your opponent know you're cheating if you only use metal mega nobs, current boring terminators, and metal Flashgitz, basing them on 25mm bases to model for advantage vs someone who legitimately bought them early into their production?

As I said before, most tournaments don't actually care, so long as the bases you are using look appropriate on the model.


However, even if they are being finicky about bases, I'm not sure I get what you're saying here. Whether someone bought the old metal nobs back int he 90s, or found them on eBay yesterday, they still came with 25mm bases, so those bases are legal on those models unless the event you are entering has their own rule requiring you to upgrade to the current bases.

You saying all my old blood angel models that now come on 32mm bases get to stay on 25mm long after new players believe 32mm was always their correct base size?

Yes. Because, again, the rules only assume that your models are on the base they were supplied with, not whatever base those models are currently supplied with.

You use the base your unit is suppose to use.

Which is the one that they came with when you bought them.

Anything else is modeling for advantage.

It's not quite that simple.

Using a smaller base isn't always an advantage. It makes your unit more succeptible to blasts and templates, and it reduces your range in different directions to your movement, just for starters.

And, really, the difference between the 25mm and 32mm base is fairly small. The actual impact it has on the game, advantage or disadvantage, is really quite small. You're making it into a much bigger issue that it generally is on the actual table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 House Griffith wrote:
Can I now put Nemesor Zandrek (supplied with 28mm base) on a 40mm base, since that's what the new clampack Overlord comes with?

If you buy him and he comes without a base, or has some weird base that clearly doesn't belong on him, yes.

This thread is proof GW knows what they are doing by not engaging with the fans on any level.

 SRSFACE wrote:
This thread is proof GW knows what they are doing by not engaging with the fans on any level.

Care to elaborate? Or is it just because someone doesn't agree with you?

 SRSFACE wrote:
This thread is proof GW knows what they are doing by not engaging with the fans on any level.

Nice passive aggressive insult to everyone who doesn't agree with you. Let's try to keep this nice and polite, please.

 SRSFACE wrote:
This thread is proof GW knows what they are doing by not engaging with the fans on any level.

Refer to the two comments above. Your comment was uninformative for the Thread: if you do not wish to participate, abstain from pointless comments.

 DJGietzen wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

If you use your Blood Angels Marines as Tactical marines for an Ultramarines Chapter for example, they need to be put on 25mm bases.

RAW, thats not true. The BRB says to use the models base that was supplied. Just because you are using those models to represent something else does not mean you don't use the base supplied with the model.

Technically, by RaW that is true, if you refer to my rules quote above. Using Blood Angel models as "proxy" Ultramarines, you are not following the rules (the exact rules). I'd point out there is no way i'd make this comment in a game, but it was in reference to THIS THREAD.

By "pure RaW" (again emphasising that i doubt anyone follows this) conversions, Kit bashes, and "proxying" are not allowed. I'd be the first to argue for a cool conversion/proxy should be allowed, even if the base size is completely different.
As Insaniak says, you gain some advantages but loose others, so the end result is usually not an issue...

If it helps settle the debate about RAI vs. RAW,

the Khorne daemonkin box supplies 32 mil bases for all the CSMs including the berzerkers.

It stands to reason that all space marine models in PA will be on 32 mil. Whether or not I rebase my 7K points (over 120 grey hunters) of space wolves is another matter entirely. At the end of the day, its between you and your opponent anyway, including at tournaments.

Whatever helps you enjoy the game more, lad...

 Kriswall wrote:
you could base them on Oreo cookies and then eat them as you wound models...

Do i need 25 or 32 mm cookies?

 koooaei wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
you could base them on Oreo cookies and then eat them as you wound models...

Do i need 25 or 32 mm cookies?

if this is the case I'm using those huge arse York mint patties! I love those things.

 koooaei wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
you could base them on Oreo cookies and then eat them as you wound models...

Do i need 25 or 32 mm cookies?

I think the better question is whether or not you use Double Stuffed Oreos. The extra filling would give you a taller model and better LOS options. Could definitely be considered modeling for advantage. We should probably hash this out over the next 20 pages or so.

But Pie-plates will cover more of my 32 mm cookie bases!

Will i have to eat pie-plates too? Man, i'll quicly gain weight with this Foodhammer.

Instead of a pie plate, why not just use a pie? Then if you can eat the blast marker.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:
This thread is proof GW knows what they are doing by not engaging with the fans on any level.

Refer to the two comments above. Your comment was uninformative for the Thread: if you do not wish to participate, abstain from pointless comments.

 DJGietzen wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

If you use your Blood Angels Marines as Tactical marines for an Ultramarines Chapter for example, they need to be put on 25mm bases.

RAW, thats not true. The BRB says to use the models base that was supplied. Just because you are using those models to represent something else does not mean you don't use the base supplied with the model.

Technically, by RaW that is true, if you refer to my rules quote above. Using Blood Angel models as "proxy" Ultramarines, you are not following the rules (the exact rules). I'd point out there is no way i'd make this comment in a game, but it was in reference to THIS THREAD.

By "pure RaW" (again emphasising that i doubt anyone follows this) conversions, Kit bashes, and "proxying" are not allowed. I'd be the first to argue for a cool conversion/proxy should be allowed, even if the base size is completely different.
As Insaniak says, you gain some advantages but loose others, so the end result is usually not an issue...

Not seeing anything to refute my point.

You are either not allowed to use your BA tac marine models as UM tac marine or you ARE allowed to use BA tac marine models as UM tac marines. In the 1st case the question of weather or not you'd have to change the base is moot. In the second, there is nothing to say you don't use the base the model came with.

I love how relaxed Games Workshop are about bases vs. the passionate discourse on show here. I'll always take the 'if you wish' part of a rule and run with it.

 Davylove21 wrote:
I love how relaxed Games Workshop are about bases vs. the passionate discourse on show here.

As I pointed out earlier, most gamers are fairly relaxed about it as well. The discussion here is on what the rules are, not what people do with them.

Isnak I think the problem is you and I read "...you should always feel free to mount the model on a base of appropriate size if you wish, using models of a similar type as guidance." Differently. I day the appropriate size is the current size of the models base, you believe the portion of the rule that says "we assume..." To mean, you're suppose to. We will not agree, ever. I see it as clear cut. "Similar models type as guidance" to me says, if the exact model you're using gets a base change size then it is the "similar model" where you are reading something else entirely out of those words I suppose. I'm not saying every BA player has to run out and but new bases right now. But over time I'll expect the effort to be made.

And yeah, to cheese against blast templates larger bases are better I suppose, in that one instance, but being an orc player, larger bases are a disadvantage to its as we need to be within 2"of a model in b2b to get out attacks. Larger bases lose us attacks. I will not gain a numerical advantage against my opponent because I purchased my models before an update to its base size and I feel people who do are cheating. It's in the rules as I read them. I get that you don't, but an assumption, as asserted by gw and people using that portion of their text as the basis for their argument only makes 2 things.

FratHammer wrote:
Isnak I think the problem is you and I read "...you should always feel free to mount the model on a base of appropriate size if you wish, using models of a similar type as guidance." Differently.

Indeed. And that difference seems to stem from the fact they you're taking it out of context as a blanket permission to always choose to replace a model's base with something else.

That statement starts with the words 'In these cases...'

In which cases? To find out, we look at the preceding sentences -

"Sometimes, a player may have models in his collection on
unusually modelled bases. Some models aren’t supplied with a base at all."


So, the statement about players 'always feeling free to mount the model on a base of appropriate size' isn't talking about models that have been re-released with a different base. It's talking about models that didn't come with a base, or that you have in your collection with, for whatever reason, a base other than that which was supplied with the model.

... you believe the portion of the rule that says "we assume..." To mean, you're suppose to.

Sort of. I believe that the portion of the rule that says 'The rules in this book assume...' to mean that the rules are written in a way that doesn't take into account anything outside that assumption.

Or, in other words, they wrote the rules under the assumption that you would just assemble your models straight out of the box. If you chose to throw away those model's bases and use different ones, then that may lead to oddness, because the rules don't take the possibility of your having done that into account, beyond giving you the option to re-base them onto 'correct' bases by comparing them to other similar models.


Of course, where that gets silly anyway is that as well as having, over the years, released the same models (or replacements for previous incarnations of the same units) with different sized bases, GW have at times had the same model available at the same time with more than one base size (Hey, Eldar Jetbikes, I'm looking at you!). If your belief that players have to use the 'current' base is an actual thing, where does that leave players who buy those models?

What it really comes back to is that GW don't really have any sort of logical consistency with bases. They don't actually consider what impact the choice of base will have on the game when they write the rules, they just use whatever sized base looks appropriate for the model. And so they have no qualms with just changing the size base supplied with a model as they see fit.

As a result, most players have developed a similarly relaxed attitude towards basing. Regardless of what the rulebook may say on the issue, anyone who has been playing for any length of time should be fully aware that GW don't consider base size to really matter, and should also be familiar enough with the way the game plays to realise that in most cases it really has a negligible effect on the game.

"Sometimes, a player may have models in his collection on
unusually modelled bases. Some models aren’t supplied with a base at all."


un·u·su·al/ˌənˈyo͞oZH(əw)əl/

adjective
not habitually or commonly occurring or done.



com·mon/ˈkämən/


adjective
1.occurring, found, or done often; prevalent.
2.showing a lack of taste and refinement; vulgar.
3.shared by, coming from, or done by more than one.
4.(in Latin and certain other languages) of or denoting a gender of nouns that are conventionally regarded as masculine or feminine, contrasting with neuter.
5.(of a syllable) able to be either short or long.
6.(of a crime) of relatively minor importance.


noun
1.a piece of open land for public use, especially in a village or town.
2.(in the Christian Church) a form of service used for each of a group of occasions.


My question to you, is at what point then does your old base become unusual? Since, as you believe, it is considered always common, which at some point it will not be. Which is why I said replacing it over time is cool, but to outright never change them makes you a cheater.

FratHammer wrote:
"Sometimes, a player may have models in his collection on
unusually modelled bases. Some models aren’t supplied with a base at all."

My question to you, is at what point then does your old base become unusual? Since, as you believe, it is considered always common, which at some point it will not be. Which is why I said replacing it over time is cool, but to outright never change them makes you a cheater.

Huh? So you're saying that I am a cheater for using the 25mm base that was supplied with my models instead of replacing all of them with 32mm? Care to explain?

1. Model all your miniatures on square bases.
2. Realise these bases are unusual.
3. Take them back off the square bases.
4. Find a new base of an appropriate size.
5. Both 25mm and 32mm are appropriate for Power Armour miniatures as models of that type appear on both currently.
6. Choose which one you want to use.
7. Bring photographic evidence of the miniatures on the square bases they once sat on, incase your oppenent questions you.

FratHammer wrote:
"Sometimes, a player may have models in his collection on
unusually modelled bases. Some models aren’t supplied with a base at all."


un·u·su·al/ˌənˈyo͞oZH(əw)əl/

adjective
not habitually or commonly occurring or done.



com·mon/ˈkämən/


adjective
1.occurring, found, or done often; prevalent.
2.showing a lack of taste and refinement; vulgar.
3.shared by, coming from, or done by more than one.
4.(in Latin and certain other languages) of or denoting a gender of nouns that are conventionally regarded as masculine or feminine, contrasting with neuter.
5.(of a syllable) able to be either short or long.
6.(of a crime) of relatively minor importance.


noun
1.a piece of open land for public use, especially in a village or town.
2.(in the Christian Church) a form of service used for each of a group of occasions.


My question to you, is at what point then does your old base become unusual? Since, as you believe, it is considered always common, which at some point it will not be. Which is why I said replacing it over time is cool, but to outright never change them makes you a cheater.

So, I purchase a model kit. I assemble said model kit EXACTLY as per the instructions. I play a game. No problem. Games Workshop, at some point in the future, discontinues the kit I purchased and sells a new one. I'm a cheater if I don't purchase new bases to convert my existing models? I'm curious. At what point do I become a cheater? Is it when the pre-orders for the new kit go up? Is it on release date? Is it two weeks afterwards? Seriously. I want to know. What is the statute of limitations in your mind on base size related cheating vis a vis new product releases?

FratHammer wrote:
My question to you, is at what point then does your old base become unusual? .

It doesn't. It will always be the base that was supplied with the model.


Branding someone a 'cheater' for using the model as it was supplied is absurd, and not supported by the actual rules. There simply is not, and has never been at any point in 40K's history, any requirement to rebase old models onto 'current' bases.

Except, if we're using your logic, you're misinterpreting the rule. It says "comes" with, not came with. What a given unit is currently supplied with is not what it came with in many cases. Tenses matter.


I'm insulted a MOD is accusing me of snipping rules just to fit my argument, even after I've explained I left out what I did.

So I'll reiterate my original argument in regards to the thread: Rules for basing are worded intentionally ambiguous. You wanna put your marines on 32mm bases, go for it. Chances are if you're really wanting to go get extra bases to put your guys on, it's to make them more scenic and look cooler rather than to try to gain some middling advantage, and I'll always play the guy who's into the modeling, cool side of the aspect over a dude who just wants to win.

Any argument "But this is for tournaments we're talking about!" is utterly pointless because each and every tournament sets their own rules, which you should always take up with them.


Edited by insaniak. Please see Dakka's rule #1

 SRSFACE wrote:
I'm insulted a MOD is accusing me of snipping rules just to fit my argument, even after I've explained I left out what I did.

The problem is, the part you snipped out was the part that made the rule mean something completely different to what you were trying to say it means.

You can't just take the last part of a rule out of context and expect it to mean anything.

This, however:

You wanna put your marines on 32mm bases, go for it. Chances are if you're really wanting to go get extra bases to put your guys on, it's to make them more scenic and look cooler rather than to try to gain some middling advantage, and I'll always play the guy who's into the modeling, cool side of the aspect over a dude who just wants to win.

...I can agree with.

As I have said a couple times, take your time updating your bases. They cost a couple dollars and time, so I don't expect you to do it immediately. At the point when people start asking you why your model is on a 25mm instead of a 32mm or a 40mm as in the case of terminators and mega nobs. I feel at that point you're holding onto the past for to long. No one, I think it's going to argue it needs to be immediate (even though I corrected mine immediately) but, for example, if you run 10 mega nobs in a BW (which is not tactical) with old bases, if it was blown up, maybe, just maybe, you could fit them all inside the area it once took up. Now? With the larger bases its impossible. If that event ever comes up and you sigh in relief that your bases are smaller, you're a bloody cheater.

If that unit of 10 assault terminators charge and you think, man if I had larger bases it would have prevented me from getting within 2"of my nearest cc model, good thing I use my out of date tiny bases, you're a cheater.

If you go online, to buy old terminators on small bases or model your new ones on 25mm and claim, "that's what they came with" you're a cheater.

Look up people complaining about old ork trukks or any other model whose size has more than doubled, and if you're buying and using those models, or those bases, for a quantifiable advantage, you're a cheater.

If you're a casual, fun guy/gal who loves this game and is strapped for cash or love the old looks? You're not a cheater.

Keep in mind, I'd never call someone out on it. I'd never complain. Not even at a tournament. I would assume the breast in my opponents intentions. If inside though, you feel like you've gotten away with something... Well, you know what you're doing, and you know what you are.

Again for those who asked, it's not a time thing, it's an as soon as you feel lucky you bought it before the new set thing.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Of and I agree with the guy who comes in who mentioned the based they ARE supplied with, not WERE supplied with.