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Wow. So funny I've never even had an altercation with a police officer and I've lived in 6 different states. They were all failing the standards too!

Let me guess - it's cause I'm white right?

 Xenomancers wrote:
Wow. So funny I've never even had an altercation with a police officer and I've lived in 6 different states. They were all failing the standards too!

Let me guess - it's cause I'm white right?

There is a LOT of evidence to support that contention.

http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=70

And, again, people continue to argue that having no standards is better than having standards, even if unenforceable.

This is an absolutist position that demands 100% compliance with a law before it is acceptable.

It ignores the reason we have standards to begin with.


MB

 whembly wrote:
No... the real question is this:

Is this a legal binding treaty of sort?

If so... then, we have issues.

If not... then, it's none of the UN's business.

It is a complicated question.

The USA is a signatory to the human rights treaties that embody the principles that are not apparently being embodied in the state laws.

However the police laws are enacted by the individual states, who of course are not empowered to enter into international treaties. So perhaps there needs to be a federal law?

It isn't the UN's complaint, though, it is a complaint by US citizens acting through the US Amnesty International.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 whembly wrote:
No... the real question is this:

Is this a legal binding treaty of sort?

If so... then, we have issues.

If not... then, it's none of the UN's business.

It is a complicated question.

Not really.

The USA is a signatory to the human rights treaties that embody the principles that are not apparently being embodied in the state laws.

However the police laws are enacted by the individual states, who of course are not empowered to enter into international treaties. So perhaps there needs to be a federal law?

BeAfraid wrote:

And, again, people continue to argue that having no standards is better than having standards, even if unenforceable.

Not to many people are saying "no standards is better than unenforceable ones". Instead, I'm seeing a lot of questioning WHERE the "standards" come from. and If there is a law, or standard that is not enforceable, then it is not a law/standard. For instance, if Congress made a law that said, "It is illegal to breath air on Tuesdays, under penalty of 5 years imprisonment or a $250,000 fine" it is clearly unenforceable, because without air you'd die. The same thing is true of what these guys want. Someone here posted the standard of "non-lethal means MUST be exhausted before lethal weapons are used"... Which is ridiculous, because as any combat vet knows, sometimes a situation escalates so quickly that there isn't time "exhaust non-lethal means" and still preserve your own life. There's a youtube video posted in one of the numerous police threads here, an Oregon State trooper pulls a guy over on I-84. The guy, as soon as the vehicle is stopped, gets out of the car, and before the officer even opens his door, is being shot at by the the guy who is stopped. Now, according to these people, the "standard" is that he must first taze the suspect, while this suspect is using a deadly weapons.

Personally, I do think that there should be a standard for all police, and they should be held to that standard. ALL incidents involving an officer discharging a firearm should be treated in the same manner as a "civilian" shooting a weapon. The officer may not see jail time (the same as a home-owner involved in a Castle Doctrine shooting) before trial, but the investigation will be complete.

correct me if im wrong, but isn't amnesty international the same international organization that sought to punish Israel for violating treaties and laws of war in the recent gaza strip conflict?

Trust me when I say this, anyone who has served in the military and been deployed to a combat zone can tell you that Israel has the strictest rules of engagement ever conceived, I promise you, we never sent phone calls or text messages to people we were about to blow the hell out of

 Ghazkuul wrote:
correct me if im wrong, but isn't amnesty international the same international organization that sought to punish Israel for violating treaties and laws of war in the recent gaza strip conflict?

Trust me when I say this, anyone who has served in the military and been deployed to a combat zone can tell you that Israel has the strictest rules of engagement ever conceived, I promise you, we never sent phone calls or text messages to people we were about to blow the hell out of

Among others, yes... that's correct.

Also, their antics during the Ferguson riots was deplorable.

 whembly wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
correct me if im wrong, but isn't amnesty international the same international organization that sought to punish Israel for violating treaties and laws of war in the recent gaza strip conflict?

Trust me when I say this, anyone who has served in the military and been deployed to a combat zone can tell you that Israel has the strictest rules of engagement ever conceived, I promise you, we never sent phone calls or text messages to people we were about to blow the hell out of

Among others, yes... that's correct.

Also, their antics during the Ferguson riots was deplorable.

what are you talking about? Protesting is fine....wait thats right it wasn't a protest it was a riot based on racism from an all black community getting upset about someone who wasn't black killing one of their teens.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
correct me if im wrong, but isn't amnesty international the same international organization that sought to punish Israel for violating treaties and laws of war in the recent gaza strip conflict?

Trust me when I say this, anyone who has served in the military and been deployed to a combat zone can tell you that Israel has the strictest rules of engagement ever conceived, I promise you, we never sent phone calls or text messages to people we were about to blow the hell out of

Among others, yes... that's correct.

Also, their antics during the Ferguson riots was deplorable.

what are you talking about? Protesting is fine....wait thats right it wasn't a protest it was a riot based on racism from an all black community getting upset about someone who wasn't black killing one of their teens.

True. Right after the 300 pound 'lil darling roughed up a clerk trying to prevent him from ripping off a convenience store and he attacked the cop who killed him.

Forgive an ignorant brit, but I assume lots of white unarmed men get shot too in the us, from the outside it's looks like (And I'm probably wrong) race relations are being stired up for ratings, how often do you guys hear about a black policemen shooting a black person, or a white cop shooting a white person, or black shooting white or whatever.

I'm genuinely interested as from over here it looks like your country is tearing itself apart .. Again.

 Formosa wrote:
Forgive an ignorant brit, but I assume lots of white unarmed men get shot too in the us, from the outside it's looks like (And I'm probably wrong) race relations are being stired up for ratings, how often do you guys hear about a black policemen shooting a black person, or a white cop shooting a white person, or black shooting white or whatever.

I'm genuinely interested as from over here it looks like your country is tearing itself apart .. Again.

I would say you have a fair percentage of truth in that statement.

 Formosa wrote:
Forgive an ignorant brit, but I assume lots of white unarmed men get shot too in the us, from the outside it's looks like (And I'm probably wrong) race relations are being stired up for ratings, how often do you guys hear about a black policemen shooting a black person, or a white cop shooting a white person, or black shooting white or whatever.

I'm genuinely interested as from over here it looks like your country is tearing itself apart .. Again.

Your absolutely right.

Lets look at some FBI numbers. These are single victim/single murderer stats.

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_6_murder_race_and_sex_of_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2013.xls

In 2013, out of 2491 black people killed, 149 of those were killed by white people. Of the 3005 white people killed, 409 of them where killed by black people. The large majority of these murders were perpetrated by people of the same skin color, but for cross racial murders, a much smaller segment crossed that boundary more then twice as many times as the much larger segment of the population.

So all of the hysteria on this? Media's fault. You know that if the white population stood up and started chanting "white lives matter" well... whatever coverage there was of the matter, would hardly be supportive.

Edit: I found this graphic that puts it into better perspective, I think. I don't like the way it's worded though.

Hell we're killing more Insurgents then whoever in the US. Wait..........
We actually going to go with body counts per year?

Relapse wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Forgive an ignorant brit, but I assume lots of white unarmed men get shot too in the us, from the outside it's looks like (And I'm probably wrong) race relations are being stired up for ratings, how often do you guys hear about a black policemen shooting a black person, or a white cop shooting a white person, or black shooting white or whatever.

I'm genuinely interested as from over here it looks like your country is tearing itself apart .. Again.

I would say you have a fair percentage of truth in that statement.

You would be incorrect in that.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/01/black-americans-killed-by-police-analysis

Looking at the figures on a per 100,000 population basis...

Black people are more likely to be shot by police. Black people are also more likely to be shot while unarmed.
White people are the least likely to be shot by police.

Clearly the worries of the black population about police violence have a strong basis in fact.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
correct me if im wrong, but isn't amnesty international the same international organization that sought to punish Israel for violating treaties and laws of war in the recent gaza strip conflict?

AI US has also been criticized for supporting US foreign policy due to the amount of money the US gives the organization, and US foreign policy often involves "Yay, Israel!" The present Administration isn't fond of Israel, so US AI was free to criticize it.

 djones520 wrote:

In 2013, out of 2491 black people killed, 149 of those were killed by white people. Of the 3005 white people killed, 409 of them where killed by black people. The large majority of these murders were perpetrated by people of the same skin color, but for cross racial murders, a much smaller segment crossed that boundary more then twice as many times as the much larger segment of the population.

Use the word "murder" consistently, please. Murder is more than simply killing a person, it is killing a person unlawfully. As such it is likely that fatalities which occurred due to police action are not included in your statistics.

The UN guidelines are very good, until they get to the 'inform of intent to use lethal force' bit. That's an unreasonable burden IMO.

The Amnesty thing is a little off kilter, but they've brought people's attention to a problem we absolutely need to work on.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Forgive an ignorant brit, but I assume lots of white unarmed men get shot too in the us, from the outside it's looks like (And I'm probably wrong) race relations are being stired up for ratings, how often do you guys hear about a black policemen shooting a black person, or a white cop shooting a white person, or black shooting white or whatever.

I'm genuinely interested as from over here it looks like your country is tearing itself apart .. Again.

I would say you have a fair percentage of truth in that statement.

You would be incorrect in that.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/01/black-americans-killed-by-police-analysis

Looking at the figures on a per 100,000 population basis...

Black people are more likely to be shot by police. Black people are also more likely to be shot while unarmed.
White people are the least likely to be shot by police.

Clearly the worries of the black population about police violence have a strong basis in fact.

I do think you should look beyond that, because I don't think it has to do with race. Black people are more likely to be shot by police. That makes sense, as black people in the US have a much higher crime rate than white people in the US. It has little to do with their skin colour, but rather with the fact that black people in general tend to have a very low social-economic position (poverty rates among african-americans are also far higher than among white americans). White people, having the highest social-economic position are less likely to fall into crime and therefore also less likely to have a confrontation with police. It is a question of class and class-based discrimination rather than racism. (of course, racism does reinforce this, but I don't think it is the main cause)
It really is a classical case of class struggle.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Forgive an ignorant brit, but I assume lots of white unarmed men get shot too in the us, from the outside it's looks like (And I'm probably wrong) race relations are being stired up for ratings, how often do you guys hear about a black policemen shooting a black person, or a white cop shooting a white person, or black shooting white or whatever.

I'm genuinely interested as from over here it looks like your country is tearing itself apart .. Again.

I would say you have a fair percentage of truth in that statement.

You would be incorrect in that.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/01/black-americans-killed-by-police-analysis

Looking at the figures on a per 100,000 population basis...

Black people are more likely to be shot by police. Black people are also more likely to be shot while unarmed.
White people are the least likely to be shot by police.

Clearly the worries of the black population about police violence have a strong basis in fact.

I do think you should look beyond that, because I don't think it has to do with race. Black people are more likely to be shot by police. That makes sense, as black people in the US have a much higher crime rate than white people in the US. It has little to do with their skin colour, but rather with the fact that black people in general tend to have a very low social-economic position (poverty rates among african-americans are also far higher than among white americans). White people, having the highest social-economic position are less likely to fall into crime and therefore also less likely to have a confrontation with police. It is a question of class and class-based discrimination rather than racism. (of course, racism does reinforce this, but I don't think it is the main cause)
It really is a classical case of class struggle.

While you do have some things correct you also have things out of order. A cop is more likely to gun a black man down because of his skin color not because the cop believes the guy is poor. The reason for this is because black people's skin color is associated in the minds of many, may Americans with high crime and poverty so a cop is more inclined to think that the black guy is likely a criminal because of that. This association has a long and complicated history but simply put it is a vicious cycle of disenfranchisement, discrimination and a lack of lateral movement amongst the poor in the United States.

I detect a lot of shooting the messenger going on in this thread. It seems that many people are attacking the messenger because they don't feel they can pick apart the message. Police use of force in this country is wildly out of control.

Sgt_Scruffy wrote:
I detect a lot of shooting the messenger going on in this thread. It seems that many people are attacking the messenger because they don't feel they can pick apart the message. Police use of force in this country is wildly out of control.

And I think you are wrong. I agree the use of force needs to be restricted and that police need to learn how to use other options, but saying it is "wildly out of control' is a wildly inaccurate statement. Consider every other country that has a population roughly around the size of the US and you will see that countries this size all have problems with police, but compared to those other countries we are pretty much the best.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
At least we don't cull our population with tanks

Why do you think the size of population of a country has a bearing on the disposition of laws and standards governing the actions of the police?

What sort of bracket of size of population do you think is causative in this correlation?

For example, the USA has a population of about 300 million. Would you consider that countries with plus or minus 10% (i.e. 270 to 330 million) are similar sized for the purpose of your argument?

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Sgt_Scruffy wrote:
I detect a lot of shooting the messenger going on in this thread. It seems that many people are attacking the messenger because they don't feel they can pick apart the message. Police use of force in this country is wildly out of control.

And I think you are wrong. I agree the use of force needs to be restricted and that police need to learn how to use other options, but saying it is "wildly out of control' is a wildly inaccurate statement. Consider every other country that has a population roughly around the size of the US and you will see that countries this size all have problems with police, but compared to those other countries we are pretty much the best.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
At least we don't cull our population with tanks

The best according to what criteria? That's a pretty 'merica statement to make without any supporting evidence or even a criterion by which to measure success...

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Sgt_Scruffy wrote:
I detect a lot of shooting the messenger going on in this thread. It seems that many people are attacking the messenger because they don't feel they can pick apart the message. Police use of force in this country is wildly out of control.

And I think you are wrong. I agree the use of force needs to be restricted and that police need to learn how to use other options, but saying it is "wildly out of control' is a wildly inaccurate statement. Consider every other country that has a population roughly around the size of the US and you will see that countries this size all have problems with police, but compared to those other countries we are pretty much the best.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
At least we don't cull our population with tanks

The best according to what criteria? That's a pretty 'merica statement to make without any supporting evidence or even a criterion by which to measure success...

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/indian-cops-rape-model-police-station-officers-article-1.2197330
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/12/indian-police-gang-rape-uttar-pradesh
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/23/world/asia/for-rape-victims-in-india-police-are-often-part-of-the-problem.html?_r=0
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-30654368

Just a quit search on india, im sure I could do the same to Russia and China without to much worry if you would like?

India's population is 4x that of the US, and China more-so. They aren't roughly similar in size at all.

Russia's population is similar in size to Japan's, which is roughly 1/2 the US's population. Japan's police are more respected by the public and don't have as many problems as Russia's.


You' be right though that the US probably doesn't have an as problematic police force compared to Indonesia (the country with closest population size, 237000000+), but that isn't really a big feat considering they're a 3rd world country.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
India's population is 4x that of the US, and China more-so. They aren't roughly similar in size at all.

Russia's population is similar in size to Japan's, which is roughly 1/2 the US's population. Japan's police are more respected by the public and don't have as many problems as Russia's.


You' be right though that the US probably doesn't have an as problematic police force compared to Indonesia (the country with closest population size, 237000000+), but that isn't really a big feat considering they're a 3rd world country.

Russia's police may be corrupt, but they don't kill nearly as many people in a year as the US police does in a month. I'd take a cop trying to blackmail you over the trigger-happy military types the US has any day of the week.
Also, the Russian government is actively fighting the corrution of the police. I don't get the feeling the US government is doing much to counter the excessive brutality of its police.

Of all 1st world nations, the US has by far the worst police and crime records. Both relatively and absolutely the US has far more people in prisons and more people are killed by police violence in a day than in a year in most other 1st world nations.
I am not American, but still I think you guys should stand up to your police. If police in Russia (and I guess that goes for most other developed nations too) was anywhere near as brutal as US police, there would be huge protests. But in the US, nothing happens. Are Americans that indifferent to murder and violence?

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Sgt_Scruffy wrote:
I detect a lot of shooting the messenger going on in this thread. It seems that many people are attacking the messenger because they don't feel they can pick apart the message. Police use of force in this country is wildly out of control.

And I think you are wrong. I agree the use of force needs to be restricted and that police need to learn how to use other options, but saying it is "wildly out of control' is a wildly inaccurate statement. Consider every other country that has a population roughly around the size of the US and you will see that countries this size all have problems with police, but compared to those other countries we are pretty much the best.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
At least we don't cull our population with tanks

The best according to what criteria? That's a pretty 'merica statement to make without any supporting evidence or even a criterion by which to measure success...

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/indian-cops-rape-model-police-station-officers-article-1.2197330
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/12/indian-police-gang-rape-uttar-pradesh
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/23/world/asia/for-rape-victims-in-india-police-are-often-part-of-the-problem.html?_r=0
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-30654368

Just a quit search on india, im sure I could do the same to Russia and China without to much worry if you would like?

So we judge the quality of our police force by the extent to which they don't rape people?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Are Americans that indifferent to murder and violence?

Americans are taught from childhood to lick boot. The deference to "authority", for a people who once reveled in their individualism, intellectualism, and revolutionary ideals, is absolutely pathetic and disgusting. .

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:


Americans are taught from childhood to lick boot. The deference to "authority", for a people who once reveled in their individualism, intellectualism, and revolutionary ideals, is absolutely pathetic and disgusting. .

I don't think that's quite correct, on a national level. I know many families take the view of "respect authority" and at the same time "question authority"... Meaning, there's a right way and a wrong way to go about dealing with bad situations, especially in reference to law enforcement

I would usually compare the USA to Europe, personally.

I think US police are a lot more trigger happy than police in Europe generally, though Europe certainly has it's share of bad police too.

Though I come from a country where ordinary police are armed with batons, not guns, so I probably have a very odd perspective compared to an american.

To be fair to the Americans there has been a lot of protest and civil unrest recently against the police brutallity. It has come particularly from the black people who as shown earlier are the foremost victims.

This whole thread of course is to discuss the Amnesty International USA report on the situation. Amnesty are not an organisation that riots in the streets to get its point across. Their involvement shows that the problem is being taken seriously by at least part of US society.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
India's population is 4x that of the US, and China more-so. They aren't roughly similar in size at all.

Russia's population is similar in size to Japan's, which is roughly 1/2 the US's population. Japan's police are more respected by the public and don't have as many problems as Russia's.


You' be right though that the US probably doesn't have an as problematic police force compared to Indonesia (the country with closest population size, 237000000+), but that isn't really a big feat considering they're a 3rd world country.

Russia's police may be corrupt, but they don't kill nearly as many people in a year as the US police does in a month. I'd take a cop trying to blackmail you over the trigger-happy military types the US has any day of the week.
Also, the Russian government is actively fighting the corrution of the police. I don't get the feeling the US government is doing much to counter the excessive brutality of its police.

Of all 1st world nations, the US has by far the worst police and crime records. Both relatively and absolutely the US has far more people in prisons and more people are killed by police violence in a day than in a year in most other 1st world nations.
I am not American, but still I think you guys should stand up to your police. If police in Russia (and I guess that goes for most other developed nations too) was anywhere near as brutal as US police, there would be huge protests. But in the US, nothing happens. Are Americans that indifferent to murder and violence?

Once again America is #1, Russia is #2!