Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
and eldar are bad, its just the scatbikes and wraith stuff that does the work.

Necrons are terrible, its just wraiths and decurion that does the work.

space marines are so powerful because they are a very fast and devastating alpha strike army (skyhammer), and also very devastating fighting in objective games because of all the transports they can put out.

oh, and libby conclave.

Erm...not quite. Eldar and necrons with their crutches taken out will steamroll marines off their crutches. You can still pseudo-decurion with a cryptek or two (one of them being orikan because he's a boss.) The rest of the army ONLY having a 5+ ward save instead of 4+ and without canopteks is still stout, just not top tier crazy. Eldar can still slap you silly with tons of bs5 warp spiders, webway'd D flamers, obsec non-scat bikes that take all your objectives, and some very very mean psychic powers with plenty of warp dice.

Both of those books have awesome unit quality throughout. There are standout all stars yes, but removing them is not the same as say...removing flyrants from the nids, which would literally destroy their competitive game.

it was more of an analogy. I completely understand where you are coming from. space marines are quite a strong army in general, just not balls to the wall OP, very versatile, access to heavy weapons and grav en masse.

what I was saying, is, all armies have something that makes them really good, and that one unit is a legit reason to make the army stronger, example, flyrants.

tyranids struggle a lot, but flyrants are amazing, and because of that, tyanids can totally be a top tier army. It makes tyranids a top tier army, and that is a totally legit reason to assume strength in that one codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
it was more of an analogy. I completely understand where you are coming from. space marines are quite a strong army in general, just not balls to the wall OP, very versatile, access to heavy weapons and grav en masse.

what I was saying, is, all armies have something that makes them really good, and that one unit is a legit reason to make the army stronger, example, flyrants.

tyranids struggle a lot, but flyrants are amazing, and because of that, tyanids can totally be a top tier army. It makes tyranids a top tier army, and that is a totally legit reason to assume strength in that one codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
double post sorry.

the problem with your assumptions OP is that this is not just a one army codex, its many armies and different space marine armies play very differently, crimson fists are played totally differently from say white scars. and simply pointing at one gimmick or two is hardly grounds to call them such.

you also need to recognize that not every army is in their current codex revision of 7.5 and that when the next armies are overhauled it could be very very different.

calling one army "overpowered" requires them to be either 1) absolutely ridiculous, being devoid of weaknesses and regardless of any new codecies that come out they will still be absolute monsters like say the eldar

or to be incredibly powerful when everyone is on a level playing field which wont happen right now or potentially not for a long time because games workshop things its good game design to have armies scattered across multiple editions and push out army books because their models sales rely on them and without them they flounder and as a result use any excuse they can to push out some new great revelation in army book design and writing. fact is that their army books are always evolving in subtle ways, toning down things here, or changing the concept of army building there. and so we never really will have a true leveled playing field like that.

in a world where our books all had formations flow charts, and the shiney new plastic kits and new price adjustments yeah the space marines might remain on top but games workshop has more than once reduced them to worthless overnight with a new army book. just ask the dark angels whove been out back scrubbing toilets for the past 3 bloody editions who are finally getting a table scrap.

so no the space marines arent broken right now, players choose to play them in a broken fashion because theyre cowardly and afraid to try new things because being the first to step into uncharted waters in the wargaming hobbies is basically asking to get your legs blown out from under you by the community who flock to flavors of the month because "thats what wins games" despite maing them hopelessly predictable on table a good 7/10 on some level. (for example if you say your going to play white scars i instantly know your a bike army, know the models and loadouts your bringing to the table and i plan accordingly or if you say your harlequinns i know exactly what models your codex has and can instantly start working on plans to play around them).

now you may then argue that eldar are the same way and no they arent, their codex makes it impossible to not be broken, heres basically your army options for building an army that doesnt consist of hopelessly broken units and overpowered nonsense. shave off about 2/3rds of the army roster.. thats kind of hard. you dont need to do that in space marines, it jjust basically boils down to "be different" which is something thats relatively easy to do in a codex with several army usr lists, 3 warlord traits tables (2 in WD), three codex supplements (blood oath UM's, sentinels of terra, clan raukkan) and not to mention a mountain of formations and two detachments.

so no the space marines arent overpowered, their above average for sure but not overpowered

 ionusx wrote:
the problem with your assumptions OP is that this is not just a one army codex, its many armies and different space marine armies play very differently, crimson fists are played totally differently from say white scars. and simply pointing at one gimmick or two is hardly grounds to call them such.

you also need to recognize that not every army is in their current codex revision of 7.5 and that when the next armies are overhauled it could be very very different.

calling one army "overpowered" requires them to be either 1) absolutely ridiculous, being devoid of weaknesses and regardless of any new codecies that come out they will still be absolute monsters like say the eldar

Alright, so one gimmick does not make an army OP. To be OP, a unit must not have any weaknesses. All units can be killed by something, so nothing in 40k is OP. This still makes Eldar OP though, because reasons.

Grav Centurions in pods with allies, Full Gladius, and Skyhammer all put out a lot of shots and have stupid durability for their cost. They're OP in the same way that Eldar Scatbikers and the Wraithknight are OP. But again, as you rightly pointed out, having OP units does not make an army OP.

or to be incredibly powerful when everyone is on a level playing field which wont happen right now or potentially not for a long time because games workshop things its good game design to have armies scattered across multiple editions and push out army books because their models sales rely on them and without them they flounder and as a result use any excuse they can to push out some new great revelation in army book design and writing. fact is that their army books are always evolving in subtle ways, toning down things here, or changing the concept of army building there. and so we never really will have a true leveled playing field like that.

in a world where our books all had formations flow charts, and the shiney new plastic kits and new price adjustments yeah the space marines might remain on top but games workshop has more than once reduced them to worthless overnight with a new army book. just ask the dark angels whove been out back scrubbing toilets for the past 3 bloody editions who are finally getting a table scrap.

I think that the possibility of having all armies updated to 7th would be a good thing, especially since it has never been done before. When GW decides to put all armies on the same playing field, the players will have a much easier time adjusting for balance.

So now "space marines" includes all MEQ books? I think we're shifting the goalposts here. I don't recall vanilla Space Marines ever being in a bad place as far as codex power goes, both from what I've experienced and from what I heard from older players in my group. Also, are we going by the same Dark Angels book? They are now just as powerful as the vanilla codex for possibly the first time. And if we are going beyond just the vanilla codex, there are plenty more things to consider as potentially OP, like 2+ re-rollable jink and TWC deathstars with allied shenanigans.

so no the space marines arent broken right now, players choose to play them in a broken fashion because theyre cowardly and afraid to try new things because being the first to step into uncharted waters in the wargaming hobbies is basically asking to get your legs blown out from under you by the community who flock to flavors of the month because "thats what wins games" despite maing them hopelessly predictable on table a good 7/10 on some level. (for example if you say your going to play white scars i instantly know your a bike army, know the models and loadouts your bringing to the table and i plan accordingly or if you say your harlequinns i know exactly what models your codex has and can instantly start working on plans to play around them).

Way to throw the majority of the 40k community under a bus there. I know of plenty of marine players that don't just play Centstar or the latest flavor-of-the month and actually like to field Tac squads. I'd be willing to bet there are plenty more here on DakkaDakka. Also, as we have already established, armies as a whole cannot be OP, so if people don't use those OP units they are therefore not the powergamers you claim them to be.

now you may then argue that eldar are the same way and no they arent, their codex makes it impossible to not be broken, heres basically your army options for building an army that doesnt consist of hopelessly broken units and overpowered nonsense. shave off about 2/3rds of the army roster.. thats kind of hard. you dont need to do that in space marines, it jjust basically boils down to "be different" which is something thats relatively easy to do in a codex with several army usr lists, 3 warlord traits tables (2 in WD), three codex supplements (blood oath UM's, sentinels of terra, clan raukkan) and not to mention a mountain of formations and two detachments.

I thought that armies as a whole couldn't be OP? Oh wait, Eldar are. Why? Because you don't like them.

Despite what you may think from reading certain threads on this and other forums, Eldar can't just take random units from their codex and expect to make an effective army. They are an army that relies on synergy between units. They are composed of specialist units; take the wrong specialists for the job and you'll be fighting an uphill battle. They rely on a combination of fast units to maneuver and cheap MSU to hold objectives. Apart from the Wraithknight and Wave Serpent, they have a severe lack of durability, which is compensated for in their mobility and firepower. Just like vanilla marines, they have OP units and options.

You tell vanilla marine players to "be different", yet don't make any allowances for Eldar players? Sounds like someone has a preconceived bias.

so no the space marines arent overpowered, their above average for sure but not overpowered

I agree that Space Marines are not overpowered, but they're a lot more than above average. Between their doctrine re-rolls, special detachments, and a few OP units, Space Marines are just as powerful as Eldar.

Yeah, I said that. Take away the OP units, and even then Eldar and Marines are on a relaively even playing field, along with the other 7.5 codexes. There's still the problem of all the other armies, but that's another discussion.

Beyond grav cannons and skyhammer, their army is average at best, unlike eldar and necrons, where almost every single unit is massively overpowered.

saying space marines are overpowered is like saying tyranids are overpowered (because of their flyrants)

Also, eldar players need a strawman to bash.

Point for point Space Marines can out shoot the Imperial Guard. In fact to kill a 10 man Tactical squad (140 points) it takes a Platoon command section and a 5 section (50 man) blob, each section equipped with a plasma gun (6 plasma) and FRFSRF at 12" range. And that is assuming there is no cover and the Marines dont get lucky. That is 370 points of Imperial Guard to take on 140 points of Space Marines. And that is assuming that the Guard get their order off and are within Rapid Fire range.

Even without their crutches Space Marines can:

Out tank the Guard
Out shoot the Guard
Out manoeuvre the Guard
Out melee the Guard
Out AA the Guard
Out AT the Guard
Out survive the Guard
etc


So yes, from my perspective the Space Marines are stupidly over powered.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Grav Centurions are nasty in a pod, but only become truly OP if you factor in allied teleporting shenanigans.

The Skyhammer formation is ridiculously powerful for what it brings to the point of being overpowered.

The free transports you get from the full Gladius are ridiculously powerful in objective games, but forces you into a single build.

Other than that, vanilla marines are actually rather balanced. The biggest problem is that not all marine codexes are caught up to the changes, especially Blood Angels.

This, if you aren't using any of this stuff space marines are actually a pretty balanced army, maybe even a little weak just because so many people build to kill marines

 master of ordinance wrote:
Point for point Space Marines can out shoot the Imperial Guard. In fact to kill a 10 man Tactical squad (140 points) it takes a Platoon command section and a 5 section (50 man) blob, each section equipped with a plasma gun (6 plasma) and FRFSRF at 12" range. And that is assuming there is no cover and the Marines dont get lucky. That is 370 points of Imperial Guard to take on 140 points of Space Marines. And that is assuming that the Guard get their order off and are within Rapid Fire range.

That seems pretty fair. If a unit wins back its points each time it shoots, it is typically either a broken unit (Scatterbikes) or easily stopped (Vindicator).

Keep in mind Guardsmen are the perfect target for Tactical Marines. Against anything stronger or weaker, Guardsmen rapidly become far more efficient.

Gladius does come with a very high price tag for a bunch of crappy Tactical Marines (minimum 30 Tactical Marines). And I love my crappy Tactical Marines (Crimson Fists, so I like my bolters). It also doesn't allow for Drop Centurions since you don't have the Drop Pods to donate to them. You can get them an overly expensive Land Raider though!

Skyhammer is great when it works, but not everyone isn't going to have the points to get it on the board.

Grav Spam, either through Grav Bikers or Grav Centurions is a great way of throwing out wounds (the shot count makes it even great against their weaknesses), but is mediocre against vehicles.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Point for point Space Marines can out shoot the Imperial Guard. In fact to kill a 10 man Tactical squad (140 points) it takes a Platoon command section and a 5 section (50 man) blob, each section equipped with a plasma gun (6 plasma) and FRFSRF at 12" range. And that is assuming there is no cover and the Marines dont get lucky. That is 370 points of Imperial Guard to take on 140 points of Space Marines. And that is assuming that the Guard get their order off and are within Rapid Fire range.

That seems pretty fair. If a unit wins back its points each time it shoots, it is typically either a broken unit (Scatterbikes) or easily stopped (Vindicator).

Keep in mind Guardsmen are the perfect target for Tactical Marines. Against anything stronger or weaker, Guardsmen rapidly become far more efficient.

Compare this to the fact that the Marines in that squad can kill on average 10 Guardsmen a turn. 150 points of Guardsmen vs 140 points of Marines (as close as we can get) will see the Guardsmen dead with the Marines only taking 50% casualties.
Against weaker units the Marines will wade through blood whilst against stronger targets the Lasgun is pathetic, being unable to actually harm T7 and higher models. Amassed bolter spam still works against most MC's. Amassed Lasgun spam does not.

"Amassed bolter spam still works against most MC's"

Nope.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Out tank the Guard
Out shoot the Guard
Out manoeuvre the Guard
Out melee the Guard
Out AA the Guard
Out AT the Guard
Out survive the Guard etc

I've gotta wash the marble.
I've gotta date the marble.
I've gotta lick the marble.
I've gotta beeee the maaarble.

Sorry, just popped into my head reading this.

But yes, Gladius is stupid in Objective based games. I'm assuming they created it, giving all of them Obj Sec, for the purpose of selling more Tac squads. Skyhammer shouldn't exist in the game, but hey, if they're gonna break the pattern they've set forth, why not have it be with the poster children of GW? And of course Grav, because Grav.

Seriously, did any of us expect any less from GW? Especially for this codex in particular?

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Point for point Space Marines can out shoot the Imperial Guard. In fact to kill a 10 man Tactical squad (140 points) it takes a Platoon command section and a 5 section (50 man) blob, each section equipped with a plasma gun (6 plasma) and FRFSRF at 12" range. And that is assuming there is no cover and the Marines dont get lucky. That is 370 points of Imperial Guard to take on 140 points of Space Marines. And that is assuming that the Guard get their order off and are within Rapid Fire range.

That seems pretty fair. If a unit wins back its points each time it shoots, it is typically either a broken unit (Scatterbikes) or easily stopped (Vindicator).

Keep in mind Guardsmen are the perfect target for Tactical Marines. Against anything stronger or weaker, Guardsmen rapidly become far more efficient.

Compare this to the fact that the Marines in that squad can kill on average 10 Guardsmen a turn. 150 points of Guardsmen vs 140 points of Marines (as close as we can get) will see the Guardsmen dead with the Marines only taking 50% casualties.
Against weaker units the Marines will wade through blood whilst against stronger targets the Lasgun is pathetic, being unable to actually harm T7 and higher models. Amassed bolter spam still works against most MC's. Amassed Lasgun spam does not.

They fill different roles. Guardsmen are there to take objectives and be distracting. Anything they actually kill is just a bonus. Marines have to do a bit of the heavy lifting, as their tanks aren't quite as anti horde effective as the guard.

Space marines are effective at killing GEQ.

Guardsmen are effective at killing your hopes and dreams.

Different roles.

Martel732 wrote:
"Amassed bolter spam still works against most MC's"

Nope.

Agreed. It doesn't work because all the MCs are already dead cuz Grav.

 master of ordinance wrote:


Compare this to the fact that the Marines in that squad can kill on average 10 Guardsmen a turn. 150 points of Guardsmen vs 140 points of Marines (as close as we can get) will see the Guardsmen dead with the Marines only taking 50% casualties.
Against weaker units the Marines will wade through blood whilst against stronger targets the Lasgun is pathetic, being unable to actually harm T7 and higher models. Amassed bolter spam still works against most MC's. Amassed Lasgun spam does not.

10 marines at 24 inches hits 6.7 times and kills 3.3 guardsmen

even in rapidfire range you still only kill 6.6 guardsmen

Nevermind that the space marine with bolter is a direct counter to the guardsman and you are completely skipping over the things guard has that are superior to their SM counterparts like pretty much all of their armour

Units aren't meant to all be analogous to each other and do exactly the same dmg to units based on cost, they are meant to do specific jobs, i'm sure if we compared Heavy Bolter landspeeders to Kabalite warriors we'd come out thinking the heavy bolter was the best weapon ever made but thats because it's designed for killing them and the kabalite warriors are useless vs them

If you let a 10 man tactical squad get close enough to your guard blob without first raining down battle cannon rounds you've already failed as a guard player.

And even if the marines manage to kill a guardsman each with shooting they either have to stand there and weather another turn of shooting or get stuck in an assault that they have very little chance of actually winning due to the sheer number of bodies in a guard squad.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Amassed bolter spam still works against most MC's"

Nope.

Agreed. It doesn't work because all the MCs are already dead cuz Grav.

For vanilla perhaps. Other chapters have a hard time getting the shots.

Martel732 wrote:
"Amassed bolter spam still works against most MC's"

Nope.

So why then do you persist that IG are better against them? Your Bolters can at least hurt most MC's, even if it is on a 6+. The humble Lasgun can not even scratch them.

Then you have the specialist wargear such as Grav which makes the job even easier. I dont see Grav in my codex....

 GangstaMuffin24 wrote:
If you let a 10 man tactical squad get close enough to your guard blob without first raining down battle cannon rounds you've already failed as a guard player.

Or your opponents' broke-ass slkyhammer made you unable to fire said battle cannon rounds.

Martel732 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Amassed bolter spam still works against most MC's"

Nope.

Agreed. It doesn't work because all the MCs are already dead cuz Grav.

For vanilla perhaps. Other chapters have a hard time getting the shots.

True enough. But that's what Allies are for!

/sarcasm

Solo 2016!

 Melissia wrote:

 GangstaMuffin24 wrote:
If you let a 10 man tactical squad get close enough to your guard blob without first raining down battle cannon rounds you've already failed as a guard player.

Or your opponents' broke-ass slkyhammer made you unable to fire said battle cannon rounds.

Fair point. I don't use drop-pods so I didn't really think about it. Either way, a tactical squad isn't really that threatening to a guard blob. They both should really be looking to engage other targets if possible.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Amassed bolter spam still works against most MC's"

Nope.

So why then do you persist that IG are better against them? Your Bolters can at least hurt most MC's, even if it is on a 6+. The humble Lasgun can not even scratch them.

Then you have the specialist wargear such as Grav which makes the job even easier. I dont see Grav in my codex....

S3 also wounds T6 on a "6". And neither penetrate the armor. Guardsmen generate significantly more wounds/pt against T6 3+ than marines with boltguns.

Grav is only truly useful on relentless platforms. So it's not marines that are good, it's bikes that are good and you get no argument from me that vanilla bikers are one of the best things in the game.

I can make a tau or eldar or necron list that doesn't use a single formation that will house ANY SM army without tailoring against it. You know why? Because SM are not in the least bit OP.

Literally nothing in the space marine book is survivable per point AND nothing has any kind of significant firepower except grav cannons - which are extremely expensive. Sm are actually a bad army. If you are smart with deployment - you can beat all their alpha strike shenanigans easily.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Amassed bolter spam still works against most MC's"

Nope.

So why then do you persist that IG are better against them? Your Bolters can at least hurt most MC's, even if it is on a 6+. The humble Lasgun can not even scratch them.

Then you have the specialist wargear such as Grav which makes the job even easier. I dont see Grav in my codex....

Actaully - due to broken to wound mechanics in the game. str3 and str4 both wound t6 on a 6....and you can easily tripple the amount of to wounds rolls per point compared to marines.

I feel like the MSU spam they can pull of is very strong in the current state of the game.

 Hawkeye888 wrote:
I feel like the MSU spam they can pull of is very strong in the current state of the game.

Omg, I just saw your signature. Woo!

Solo 2016!

Where can I find the rules/requirements for this Skyhammer Annihilation Force?

Thanks

SG

ServiceGames wrote:
Where can I find the rules/requirements for this Skyhammer Annihilation Force?

Thanks

SG

Blood of Kittens website.

"If you are smart with deployment "

Evidently most xeno players just line up for the slaughter and then complain. If BA can neuter it, anyone can. The invis grav star is way, way worse.

"Literally nothing in the space marine book is survivable per point AND nothing has any kind of significant firepower except grav cannons"

BAM! Blood Angels described in a nutshell. Marines firepower/pt has always been crap. It's just that assault used to be viable.

Is it in this book, "Sentinels of Terra - A Codex: Space Marines Supplement?"

Thanks in advance

SG

EDIT: Nevermind... I see that it came with a set that was limited to 200 units.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Compare this to the fact that the Marines in that squad can kill on average 10 Guardsmen a turn. 150 points of Guardsmen vs 140 points of Marines (as close as we can get) will see the Guardsmen dead with the Marines only taking 50% casualties.
Against weaker units the Marines will wade through blood whilst against stronger targets the Lasgun is pathetic, being unable to actually harm T7 and higher models. Amassed bolter spam still works against most MC's. Amassed Lasgun spam does not.

Meh.... I've managed to wipe tactical squads in a turn or two with only 20-30 guard using FRFSRF.

That said russes are simply not reliable enough to kill marines using ordnance. Guard also struggle against MC's. I'm currently trying to figure out how I can make my army better vs MC's and Tanks seeing my heavy weapon squads and Russes simply are not performing as well as they need to, even with orders.

Can you run the Skyhammer Annihilation Force with any Space Marine chapter (for example, Dark Angels), or does it have to be Ultramarines or one of their successor chapters?

Thanks

SG