Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

While the Gladius is strong, it's not wonderful in games under 2000 points. You'll mostly have bare-bones squads with free rhinos/razorbacks/drop pods. that's about as scary as IG blob squads with no tank support or heavy weapons teams.

 kronk wrote:
While the Gladius is strong, it's not wonderful in games under 2000 points. You'll mostly have bare-bones squads with free rhinos/razorbacks/drop pods. that's about as scary as IG blob squads with no tank support or heavy weapons teams.

The 10 + free transports are VERY scary, the amount of lascannons and TL plasmaguns they can carry is huge, the meltagun drop pod units with auspex do what they are supposed to do, the 25+ ObSec units will destroy any kind of maelstrom game. Doesn't matter if they are scary or not, a 1850 list will always have troubles against a 2400-2500 list.

I've been playing against a fella who runs this 1850 gladius imperial fist list. Sort of goes like this:

Captain with auspex in drop pod along with 5 melta/combi melta dudes
Chaplain with auspex in drop pod along with 5 melta/combi melta dudes
5 tacticals in drop pod stay behind so that the other two can drop immediately.

5 x devastators, 4 lascannons
5 x devastators, 4 lascannons

3 bikes, 2 x grav, combi grav
3 bikes, 2 x grav, combi grav

Land speeder with heavy flamer + 5 dudes with grav
Land speeder with large blast+ 5 dudes with grav
Land speeder with large blast + 5 dudes with grav

6-7 x Razorbacks with lascannons and TL plasma, each has some dudes inside
3-4 x razorbacks with heavy bolters, each has some dudes inside

Yes, for your information that is a 1850 list. If you think that this list is like IG with no tank support and no heavy weapons tell me why am I facing 14 lascannons, 6 gravs, 12 meltaguns, 10 tanks + 3 drop pods etc etc? You are right, no tanks and not heavy support teams. Now add the imperial fists doctrines giving rerolls and tank hunters to those lascannons and then, lo and behold, all of those dudes are not only scoring, but ObSec units as well. If you cannot understand how having all your list as ObSec is broken I cannot really help you any further.

I assume that "5 dudes with grav" means a 5 man tactical squad? I count only 4 tactical squads in that list. Where are the other 2? Each Battle Demi-Company needs 3. That list doesn't meet this requirement.

Also, each Demi-Company allows for EITHER a squad of bikes OR a Squad of Landspeeders. Are the Landspeeders running together? Even if they are, he as 3 choices when there should be 2. As listed, it's 5 choices when there should be 2.

As presented, that list would not get the free transports.

Also, what is Land Speeder with Large Blast?

If you're going to be mad about the SM codex, at least be mad about a legal list.

1. There are tactical dudes in the heavy bolter razorbacks also. And also in some of the lascannon razorbacks. Or all, I have never managed to open them all up to see what's inside.

2. He is surely playing 2 x 3 bikers fully graved up. Maybe the landspeeders are extra? ie not in the gladius?? The land speeders are certainly not running together as he has been outflanking some of them.

3. A land speeder with a large blast is well, a land speeder that shoots some sort of str 3 (maybe 4?) large blast.

I'm not mad per se. I am sad though. All my armies feel powerless against the Gladius. Maybe I get a shot at kill point games, but at objective games I lose to double digits score.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
1. There are tactical dudes in the heavy bolter razorbacks also. And also in some of the lascannon razorbacks. Or all, I have never managed to open them all up to see what's inside.

2. He is surely playing 2 x 3 bikers fully graved up. Maybe the landspeeders are extra? ie not in the gladius?? The land speeders are certainly not running together as he has been outflanking some of them.

3. A land speeder with a large blast is well, a land speeder that shoots some sort of str 3 (maybe 4?) large blast.

I'm not mad per se. I am sad though. All my armies feel powerless against the Gladius. Maybe I get a shot at kill point games, but at objective games I lose to double digits score.

1. There should be 6 total tactical squads. You've listed 4, but perhaps there are 2 more that you aren't thinking of.

2. 2x3 bikes would fit in the list. It's the land speeders that are the problem. They are not part of the Gladius IF he takes the bikes. It's one or the other, not BOTH.

3. Landspeeders can take the following: Heavy Bolter, or drop the HB for either a Heavy Flamer or Multi-Melta. Additionally, it can add one of the following: Heavy Flamer, Heavy Bolter, Multi-Melta, Assault Cannon, or Typhoon Missile Launcher (2x shots of either S8 AP3 or small blast S4 AP5). No large blasts at all. I'd ask him (1) How is he fitting it in his list and (2) What weapons do they have. Show you the unit entry.

I won't list all of the options, but from what's above, he can run:

Battle Demi-Company 1
Captain with Auspex and power weapon? 110
Command Squad 5x melta 140
3x tactical Squads of 5 guys with 1 grav gun each 255
1x Bike Squad OR Land Speeder (Assume Bikes) 103
Dev squad 4x lascannon 150

Battle demi-Company 2
Chaplain with Auspex 95
Command Squad 5x Melta 140
3x Tactical Squads of 5 guys with 1 grav gun each 255
1 Bike Squad OR Land Speeder (Assume Bike) 103
Dev Squad 4x lascannon 150

If the command squads are taking the drop pods and one of the tac squads are taking a drop pod, that only leaves 7 total squads (5x tactical, 2x devastator) than can take a razorback.

Assuming he gives all of them RB with LC/TLPG, that's about 1650. The RB's are only armor 11. You should have plenty of autocannons and other weapons to handle them. After the transport is open, you only have to kill 2 guys in order to start forcing leadership checks (8 base, or 9 if he has upgraded to Vet Sergeant). He is bringing a lot of melta and lascannons, which can be daunting, but I'd have to know more about your list to come up with counters. That's a topic for another thread, though.

Thanks for sharing, Topaxy

Landspeeders can have blasts - the Missile Launcher variant.
However they are only small blasts.

I run a space marine gladius double demi-company with white scars.

Its got Kahn and a chaplain with an auspex, melta bombs and digital weapons.

4 tac squads with a melta gun and combi-melta and las-plas razorbacks
2 tac squads with flamers and combi-flamer and assault cannon razorbacks

2 dev squads with 3 grav cannons and a drop pod
2 assault squads with 2 flamers and a drop pod with sgt having cc shield, melta bomb, and power sword
2 dreadnoughts w' multi-melta and heavy flamer in pods

3 scout squads with teleport homers.

1850 points and the only mission that I have troubles with is something like kill-points against 5+ flyrants

 master of ordinance wrote:
Landspeeders can have blasts - the Missile Launcher variant.
However they are only small blasts.

I mentioned that in my post: Typhoon Missile Launcher (2x shots of either S8 AP3 or small blast S4 AP5)

 kronk wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Landspeeders can have blasts - the Missile Launcher variant.
However they are only small blasts.

I mentioned that in my post: Typhoon Missile Launcher (2x shots of either S8 AP3 or small blast S4 AP5)

A Gladius Strike Force still requires 1+ Auxiliary detachments in addition to the pair of Demi-Companies.
Topaxygouroun is likely facing off against an added 10th Company Task Force formation, which can include 3x 5-man Scout Squads each taking a Land Speeder Storm as a DT. Those come with a Cerberus launcher, which is a S4/ap6 Heavy 1/Blind/Large Blast weapon.

Ah! that makes more sense. Thank you.

Also, I forgot about the +1 Aux selection that's needed. Stupid getting older.

 Desubot wrote:
Marine players bitch and moan about guard stuff

Well.. yes.

Is it a thing? If yes, Space Marine players will bitch about it. If no, Space Marine players might bitch about it anyway.

This isn't really news here. It's been this way for a decade.

As I said in the Guard thread, lumping all Marine/Guard/whatever players together is counterproductive--so please refrain from doing so.

 Kanluwen wrote:
As I said in the Guard thread, lumping all Marine/Guard/whatever players together is counterproductive--so please refrain from doing so.

My point was more that it's unhelpful to pretend that Space Marine players are somehow better sportsmen than anyone else, when even a cursory look over the past few pages of this board would show otherwise. Players pretending people who play their faction are somehow better behaved is a pet peeve of mine.

 Melissia wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
As I said in the Guard thread, lumping all Marine/Guard/whatever players together is counterproductive--so please refrain from doing so.

My point was more that it's unhelpful to pretend that Space Marine players are somehow better sportsmen than anyone else, when even a cursory look over the past few pages of this board would show otherwise. Players pretending people who play their faction are somehow better behaved is a pet peeve of mine.

The Internet is more than one person. Just because you run into people who use sweeping generalizations and happen to belong to one subgroup doesn't make the entire subgroup bad. Using those same sweeping generalizations yourself has lowered you to their level though.

 Melissia wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
As I said in the Guard thread, lumping all Marine/Guard/whatever players together is counterproductive--so please refrain from doing so.

My point was more that it's unhelpful to pretend that Space Marine players are somehow better sportsmen than anyone else, when even a cursory look over the past few pages of this board would show otherwise. Players pretending people who play their faction are somehow better behaved is a pet peeve of mine.

I dont think anyone was saying any of that.

More of a dont use a giant paint roller to brand everyone playing one or another army as whiners or whatever.

it wasn't a helpful comment in the first place.

Edit: Not that im saying marine players dont complain. hell we have Martel doing the job of 100 marine players for that

I don't really give a damn if you consider it unhelpful when you're making unhelpful comments pretending Space Marine players are somehow better than everyone else.

I'm not really a marine player. If I were, I'd buy my Skyhammer or Gladius and admit that it was filthy, but necessary.

 Melissia wrote:
I don't really give a damn if you consider it unhelpful when you're making unhelpful comments pretending Space Marine players are somehow better than everyone else.

Don't think anyone said that...

At any rate, let's just all get back on the discussion at hand and not one about how on group of players is worse/better than others.

 Melissia wrote:
I don't really give a damn if you consider it unhelpful when you're making unhelpful comments pretending Space Marine players are somehow better than everyone else.

And now you are assuming i think space marine players are superior.

really grinds my gear when people assume gak.

Topic, folks. Best stay on it.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Point for point Space Marines can out shoot the Imperial Guard. In fact to kill a 10 man Tactical squad (140 points) it takes a Platoon command section and a 5 section (50 man) blob, each section equipped with a plasma gun (6 plasma) and FRFSRF at 12" range. And that is assuming there is no cover and the Marines dont get lucky. That is 370 points of Imperial Guard to take on 140 points of Space Marines. And that is assuming that the Guard get their order off and are within Rapid Fire range.

Even without their crutches Space Marines can:

Out tank the Guard
Out shoot the Guard
Out manoeuvre the Guard
Out melee the Guard
Out AA the Guard
Out AT the Guard
Out survive the Guard
etc


So yes, from my perspective the Space Marines are stupidly over powered.

1. Out tank? We have Sicarans and that's about it. Predators got better but they're not actually outshooting the Russ until you squadron them.
2. Only certain units outshoot Guard. Tacticals and Terminators aren't taken for a reason: they don't really have any firepower.
3. Drop Pods are good. I'll give you that.
4. Well no gak. That'd be like complaining Space Marines and Orks out melee Tau. This is an example of complaining to complain.
5. I agree with being able to out AA. Fliers aren't necessarily a big deal at the moment though and you can mostly ignore them.
6. NOT even close. Veterens with Melta Guns in a Chimera? Cheap to acquire Lascannons? Space Marines can out AA you, but definitely cannot out AT you.
7. Out survive? Maybe if you're terrible at deploying. Cover is so easy to get that you should be glad you're only paying for a 5+.

Space Marines aren't overpowered bar some extreme examples, like Skyhammer and Grav Centurions. Hell, even the Battle Demi-Company isn't that bad because you're forced to use Tactical Marines to get the free vehicles.

 Kanluwen wrote:
As I said in the Guard thread, lumping all Marine/Guard/whatever players together is counterproductive--so please refrain from doing so.

Especially since many players play both Space Marines and Guard

I don't think Space Marines are OP. It is just that some lists (Orks, AM, DE) are underpowered imo.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Point for point Space Marines can out shoot the Imperial Guard. In fact to kill a 10 man Tactical squad (140 points) it takes a Platoon command section and a 5 section (50 man) blob, each section equipped with a plasma gun (6 plasma) and FRFSRF at 12" range. And that is assuming there is no cover and the Marines dont get lucky. That is 370 points of Imperial Guard to take on 140 points of Space Marines. And that is assuming that the Guard get their order off and are within Rapid Fire range.

Even without their crutches Space Marines can:

Out tank the Guard
Out shoot the Guard
Out manoeuvre the Guard
Out melee the Guard
Out AA the Guard
Out AT the Guard
Out survive the Guard
etc


So yes, from my perspective the Space Marines are stupidly over powered.

1. Out tank? We have Sicarans and that's about it. Predators got better but they're not actually outshooting the Russ until you squadron them.

In a straight up tank fight, a trilas predator is generally going to win a shootout with a lascannon equipped Vanquisher, in a tank on tank fight the predators are going to win, and it won't be a contest if squadron bonuses are taken into account. LIkewise comparing say, Demolishers to Vindicators, the Damolishers are 50pts more with drastically more limited mobility, for the price of two Demolishers you can basically get three Vindi's that also get a squadron bonus.

Also, SM's get more, and better, tank formations, be it the Gladius, Suppression Force, Armored Task Force, etc.

6. NOT even close. Veterens with Melta Guns in a Chimera? Cheap to acquire Lascannons? Space Marines can out AA you, but definitely cannot out AT you.

Hrm, yeah IG have meltavets, but they're not bringing a stelllar amount of AT either, 155pts gets you three meltaguns and a delivery box. Not terrible, but not stellar either, a Tac squad with a melta, combimelta, and TLLC razorback for 10pts more is probably going to be generally more effective as an overall package. IG can technically bring lots of lascannons, but they're not as efficient investments in points as they are for Space Marines, most IG armies typically actually have very few lascannons, about the only effective lascannon platform is the Vendetta. IG HWS's are rather poor lascannon platforms and really the only way that IG can get lots of them, the other sources being sentinels or Russ tanks equipped with a single BS3 lascannon each.

Space Marines can bring large numbers of lascannons to bear much more effectively, and can get thinks like rerolls or tank hunter or formation bonuses much easier than IG units and without having to rely on command units being nearby and passing LD7 or LD8 checks.

7. Out survive? Maybe if you're terrible at deploying. Cover is so easy to get that you should be glad you're only paying for a 5+.

With the amount of ignores cover stuff out there, it's not as great as one might think. Also, there's a tons of speedy units that aren't much of a threat to (or aren't great at killing) Space Marines in CC pose a threat to both IG infantry and tanks.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

7. Out survive? Maybe if you're terrible at deploying. Cover is so easy to get that you should be glad you're only paying for a 5+.

I sometimes think that many players must play with forests that cover entire deployment zones.

Also, even if you can deploy some guys in cover, that only works if you never need to move them. And no one uses Ignores Cover weapons. And no one brings any pie plates that will erase guardsman squads by sheer volume of wounds.

But, I guess that must never happens. Hence why infantry IG lists have been dominating tournaments for years. Oh, wait...

 vipoid wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

7. Out survive? Maybe if you're terrible at deploying. Cover is so easy to get that you should be glad you're only paying for a 5+.

I sometimes think that many players must play with forests that cover entire deployment zones.

Also, even if you can deploy some guys in cover, that only works if you never need to move them. And no one uses Ignores Cover weapons. And no one brings any pie plates that will erase guardsman squads by sheer volume of wounds.

But, I guess that must never happens. Hence why infantry IG lists have been dominating tournaments for years. Oh, wait...

You should generally at least have one piece you can count on and you can ALWAYS count on chump meat shields for cover.

And its not like they are going to sit in a corner for ever. once the threats have come in, most people will focus fire them so they can move out and deal with whatever is left.

As to pie plates and ignore cover. TFC is awesome no doubt about that. WW is a little short. triple vin will have a hard time ever shooting since if a single one gets shaken or is out of range then its a no shot.

 Desubot wrote:

You should generally at least have one piece you can count on and you can ALWAYS count on chump meat shields for cover.

Chump meat shields aren't exactly resilient. Certainly not enough to give reliable cover.

 Desubot wrote:

And its not like they are going to sit in a corner for ever. once the threats have come in, most people will focus fire them so they can move out and deal with whatever is left.

Yeah, they can move out and... remember that their weapons are garbage and they can't aim for toffee. What exactly are they going to be killing? They certainly won't be making any kind of push on distant objectives.

 Desubot wrote:

As to pie plates and ignore cover. TFC is awesome no doubt about that. WW is a little short. triple vin will have a hard time ever shooting since if a single one gets shaken or is out of range then its a no shot.

I imagine one or two TFCs will work just fine.

IF we are talking about guard. we are probably talking about protecting a tank commander. or a CCS in a chimera or something.

the regular guards men wont particularly do anything special maybe kill 1-2 marines with some lucky rolls.

but when the lemons turn around and its probably a paskunisher with executioner buddies. you can expect anything that has drop podded down to be dead.

of course its going to be a tough battle. but you can gain small advantages by actually using your models and rules.

its a 5+ cover for intervening models. if you get lucky its a 4+ with night fighting. minor things like spreading them out to keep drop pod meltas out of 6-12" can help greatly. so can using other vehicles like chimeras to competently block line of sight.

Im going to repeat that im not saying its a cake walk for IG (at the least) to deal with SM specially alpha strike ones with skyhammer but being smart can help you mitigate some of the punch.

 Melissia wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
As I said in the Guard thread, lumping all Marine/Guard/whatever players together is counterproductive--so please refrain from doing so.

My point was more that it's unhelpful to pretend that Space Marine players are somehow better sportsmen than anyone else, when even a cursory look over the past few pages of this board would show otherwise. Players pretending people who play their faction are somehow better behaved is a pet peeve of mine.

This made me laugh.



I think most people will agree that codex space marines is about 3rd/4th on the list of power dexes. Eldar and Necrons are above them, while Admech seems higher or lower depending on the person. I think admech is higher but rarer, but I don't have enough experience to say for sure, so I'll leave that alone.
What makes the army so good? Their formations are pretty solid, which seems to be a theme with the OP dexes. They have a few units/combos that just push things way to far, which again is a common theme.
I don't think they are OP (only OP army is Eldar, IMO), but I do think they have the potential to be OP if they chose. Their list choices are tighter than the other 2 OP armies, and they have a few bad matchups depending on the list, but it's hard to say they aren't in the top 5.