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I keep reading how they are a cheese army now, but I don't see it. Can someone help me out?

Grav Centurions (or grav in general), Doctrines, Well-Rounded, Adaptable, lots of options, alot of Formations...

Yeah how do you not see it.

I don't see their formations as more op than others...do others have less option?

I'm really not trying to be difficult, I just don't see it.

Grav Centurions are nasty in a pod, but only become truly OP if you factor in allied teleporting shenanigans.

The Skyhammer formation is ridiculously powerful for what it brings to the point of being overpowered.

The free transports you get from the full Gladius are ridiculously powerful in objective games, but forces you into a single build.

Other than that, vanilla marines are actually rather balanced. The biggest problem is that not all marine codexes are caught up to the changes, especially Blood Angels.

hisshers wrote:
I don't see their formations as more op than others...do others have less option?

That doesn't mean the SM one's aren't OP, it just means some of the others are too.

I'm really not trying to be difficult, I just don't see it.

Lets take something like the Skyhammer Annihilation force, where you can plop down just about anywhere you want in relative safety, engage up to 4 targets with 40 Grav shots that get rerolls to wound/immobilze, and then follow it up with assault troops engaging out of deep strike, and that's likely only half the SM army. There's lots of armies that simply have no defense against that sort of thing and will effectively auot-lose the game on turn 1 against such an assault, and it breaks several longstanding taboo's of 40k game design, particularly the assault-from-deepstrike.

The Skyhammer formation is pretty brutal. As is the Gladius.

Have you faced either of these on the table so far?

Actual space marines are actually pretty bad. All the things mentioned in this thread are what do the work.

It's pretty much formation bonuses, the existence of grav, and psychic shenanigans holding them up as a top tier book. If you knock out those 3 pillars, they fall into middle tier obscurity.

 Vaktathi wrote:

hisshers wrote:
I don't see their formations as more op than others...do others have less option?

That doesn't mean the SM one's aren't OP, it just means some of the others are too.

I'm really not trying to be difficult, I just don't see it.

Lets take something like the Skyhammer Annihilation force, where you can plop down just about anywhere you want in relative safety, engage up to 4 targets with 40 Grav shots that get rerolls to wound/immobilze, and then follow it up with assault troops engaging out of deep strike, and that's likely only half the SM army. There's lots of armies that simply have no defense against that sort of thing and will effectively auot-lose the game on turn 1 against such an assault, and it breaks several longstanding taboo's of 40k game design, particularly the assault-from-deepstrike.

40 grav shots...that IS excessive.

The thing that makes space marines, eldar, and necrons op is their having an answer to absolutely everything. Not many armies have that as well as the three I mentioned.

and eldar are bad, its just the scatbikes and wraith stuff that does the work.

Necrons are terrible, its just wraiths and decurion that does the work.

space marines are so powerful because they are a very fast and devastating alpha strike army (skyhammer), and also very devastating fighting in objective games because of all the transports they can put out.

oh, and libby conclave.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
and eldar are bad, its just the scatbikes and wraith stuff that does the work.

Necrons are terrible, its just wraiths and decurion that does the work.

space marines are so powerful because they are a very fast and devastating alpha strike army (skyhammer), and also very devastating fighting in objective games because of all the transports they can put out.

oh, and libby conclave.

Do most lists have both sky and glad together? i dont recall there being enough points without it just being mediocre.

Space marine are awesome because They have the most options and are generally consistent. they are also EXTREMELY alpha strikeeeee which can pay off well most of the time.

I actually dont know.

just thoughts lol. Never built a list with their new codex/formations

hisshers wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

hisshers wrote:
I don't see their formations as more op than others...do others have less option?

That doesn't mean the SM one's aren't OP, it just means some of the others are too.

I'm really not trying to be difficult, I just don't see it.

Lets take something like the Skyhammer Annihilation force, where you can plop down just about anywhere you want in relative safety, engage up to 4 targets with 40 Grav shots that get rerolls to wound/immobilze, and then follow it up with assault troops engaging out of deep strike, and that's likely only half the SM army. There's lots of armies that simply have no defense against that sort of thing and will effectively auot-lose the game on turn 1 against such an assault, and it breaks several longstanding taboo's of 40k game design, particularly the assault-from-deepstrike.

40 grav shots...that IS excessive.

I'm still stuck on 40 shots. How is that even possible?

hisshers wrote:

hisshers wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

hisshers wrote:
I don't see their formations as more op than others...do others have less option?

That doesn't mean the SM one's aren't OP, it just means some of the others are too.

I'm really not trying to be difficult, I just don't see it.

Lets take something like the Skyhammer Annihilation force, where you can plop down just about anywhere you want in relative safety, engage up to 4 targets with 40 Grav shots that get rerolls to wound/immobilze, and then follow it up with assault troops engaging out of deep strike, and that's likely only half the SM army. There's lots of armies that simply have no defense against that sort of thing and will effectively auot-lose the game on turn 1 against such an assault, and it breaks several longstanding taboo's of 40k game design, particularly the assault-from-deepstrike.

40 grav shots...that IS excessive.

I'm still stuck on 40 shots. How is that even possible?

2 Devastator squads, each with 4 Grav Cannons (w/Grav Amps), formation gives them Relentless, 5 shots per Grav Grav Cannon, thus 40 shots, and combat squads allows up to 4 different targets to be engaged.

what about combi-grav on the sgt?

is that even an option.

 Vaktathi wrote:

hisshers wrote:

hisshers wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

hisshers wrote:
I don't see their formations as more op than others...do others have less option?

That doesn't mean the SM one's aren't OP, it just means some of the others are too.

I'm really not trying to be difficult, I just don't see it.

Lets take something like the Skyhammer Annihilation force, where you can plop down just about anywhere you want in relative safety, engage up to 4 targets with 40 Grav shots that get rerolls to wound/immobilze, and then follow it up with assault troops engaging out of deep strike, and that's likely only half the SM army. There's lots of armies that simply have no defense against that sort of thing and will effectively auot-lose the game on turn 1 against such an assault, and it breaks several longstanding taboo's of 40k game design, particularly the assault-from-deepstrike.

40 grav shots...that IS excessive.

I'm still stuck on 40 shots. How is that even possible?

2 Devastator squads, each with 4 Grav Cannons (w/Grav Amps), formation gives them Relentless, 5 shots per Grav Grav Cannon, thus 40 shots, and combat squads allows up to 4 different targets to be engaged.

Good Lord.

Largely speaking its Skyhammer thats the problem. Gladius is sweet but its pretty much your entire army at 2k points so you have limited options. Its till very good, but it isnt the Skyhammer.

 Grimmor wrote:
Largely speaking its Skyhammer thats the problem. Gladius is sweet but its pretty much your entire army at 2k points so you have limited options. Its till very good, but it isnt the Skyhammer.

Iv heard otherwise about the skyhammer from the initial get go.

it can catch you off guard. but its still counter deployable. especially if they dont equip properly. going full grav wont do much if you chuck things into vehicles or buildings.

i though less grav and more multi melta was getting popular.

 Desubot wrote:

 Grimmor wrote:
Largely speaking its Skyhammer thats the problem. Gladius is sweet but its pretty much your entire army at 2k points so you have limited options. Its till very good, but it isnt the Skyhammer.

Iv heard otherwise about the skyhammer from the initial get go.

it can catch you off guard. but its still counter deployable. especially if they dont equip properly. going full grav wont do much if you chuck things into vehicles or buildings.

i though less grav and more multi melta was getting popular.

Its still Skyhammer, and Relentless Multi Meltas would be horrifying. My Retributors are jealous

 Desubot wrote:

 Grimmor wrote:
Largely speaking its Skyhammer thats the problem. Gladius is sweet but its pretty much your entire army at 2k points so you have limited options. Its till very good, but it isnt the Skyhammer.

Iv heard otherwise about the skyhammer from the initial get go.

it can catch you off guard. but its still counter deployable. especially if they dont equip properly. going full grav wont do much if you chuck things into vehicles or buildings.

i though less grav and more multi melta was getting popular.

I'm of the opposite opinion. Gladius you can at least counter by murdering metal boxes and contesting objectives. The problem with Skyhammer is that there is no hard counter besides reserves and MSU. The units the space marine player shoots are out of the game, and the ones he assaults are dead. You can build lists to mitigate this, but there exists no hard-and-fast counter to Skyhammer. At least with the Mechanicus War Convocation with Bloody Taxi Service you can at least shoot or assault back if you survive.

Well, it's not like the grav weapons are ineffective at killing vehicles, and for armies that rely on vehicles as more than just 35pt battle taxi's, that vehicle killing ability is pretty impressive.

I mean, even splitting fire 4 ways, on average, if you'll still kill all 4 targets if they're 2 or 3 HP's, stuff like Battlewagons, Predators, Russ tanks, Sicarans, Hellhounds, etc.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Well, it's not like the grav weapons are ineffective at killing vehicles, and for armies that rely on vehicles as more than just 35pt battle taxi's, that vehicle killing ability is pretty impressive.

I mean, even splitting fire 4 ways, on average, if you'll still kill all 4 targets if they're 2 or 3 HP's, stuff like Battlewagons, Predators, Russ tanks, Sicarans, Hellhounds, etc.

This is why vehicles need some form of save, i mean it is amazing what a 6+ or 5+ invuln does to a vehicles durability.

 Grimmor wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Well, it's not like the grav weapons are ineffective at killing vehicles, and for armies that rely on vehicles as more than just 35pt battle taxi's, that vehicle killing ability is pretty impressive.

I mean, even splitting fire 4 ways, on average, if you'll still kill all 4 targets if they're 2 or 3 HP's, stuff like Battlewagons, Predators, Russ tanks, Sicarans, Hellhounds, etc.

This is why vehicles need some form of save, i mean it is amazing what a 6+ or 5+ invuln does to a vehicles durability.

Skimmers can jink, and it's not like it's hard for vehicles to claim a cover save...

 Vaktathi wrote:
Well, it's not like the grav weapons are ineffective at killing vehicles, and for armies that rely on vehicles as more than just 35pt battle taxi's, that vehicle killing ability is pretty impressive.

I mean, even splitting fire 4 ways, on average, if you'll still kill all 4 targets if they're 2 or 3 HP's, stuff like Battlewagons, Predators, Russ tanks, Sicarans, Hellhounds, etc.

You can still mitigate a bit of that using terrain or fortifications. depending on the targets being presented. you are forcing there big hitters to waste shots to get to the juicy stuff. sure you can always roll 4+ 6s. and it happens. but thats at least 10 gravs not going to your marines or whatever.

Not saying its worthless or anything. its definitely competitive but it isnt the end all be all that people think it is.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 Grimmor wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Well, it's not like the grav weapons are ineffective at killing vehicles, and for armies that rely on vehicles as more than just 35pt battle taxi's, that vehicle killing ability is pretty impressive.

I mean, even splitting fire 4 ways, on average, if you'll still kill all 4 targets if they're 2 or 3 HP's, stuff like Battlewagons, Predators, Russ tanks, Sicarans, Hellhounds, etc.

This is why vehicles need some form of save, i mean it is amazing what a 6+ or 5+ invuln does to a vehicles durability.

Skimmers can jink, and it's not like it's hard for vehicles to claim a cover save...

It is when the Drop pod shows up behind you cuz it doesnt scatter

 Grimmor wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 Grimmor wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Well, it's not like the grav weapons are ineffective at killing vehicles, and for armies that rely on vehicles as more than just 35pt battle taxi's, that vehicle killing ability is pretty impressive.

I mean, even splitting fire 4 ways, on average, if you'll still kill all 4 targets if they're 2 or 3 HP's, stuff like Battlewagons, Predators, Russ tanks, Sicarans, Hellhounds, etc.

This is why vehicles need some form of save, i mean it is amazing what a 6+ or 5+ invuln does to a vehicles durability.

Skimmers can jink, and it's not like it's hard for vehicles to claim a cover save...

It is when the Drop pod shows up behind you cuz it doesnt scatter

you know that if a D pod goes off table it doesnt get to unscatter right? or was it a special Skyhammer thing i honest forget.

you can also use table edges and models to get some saves. and the ADL is freakishly cheap and big enough to cover most vehicles (that are not skimming high anyway)

Im just glad most of my vehicles either have a save, are stupid cheap, or have good range so sticking them in a corner isnt a horrible idea.

 Grimmor wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Well, it's not like the grav weapons are ineffective at killing vehicles, and for armies that rely on vehicles as more than just 35pt battle taxi's, that vehicle killing ability is pretty impressive.

I mean, even splitting fire 4 ways, on average, if you'll still kill all 4 targets if they're 2 or 3 HP's, stuff like Battlewagons, Predators, Russ tanks, Sicarans, Hellhounds, etc.

This is why vehicles need some form of save, i mean it is amazing what a 6+ or 5+ invuln does to a vehicles durability.

Indeed, the post 6E vehicle paradigm has basically turned them into MC's, but without really any of the benefits, while retaining the downsides of still having a damage chart

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 Grimmor wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Well, it's not like the grav weapons are ineffective at killing vehicles, and for armies that rely on vehicles as more than just 35pt battle taxi's, that vehicle killing ability is pretty impressive.

I mean, even splitting fire 4 ways, on average, if you'll still kill all 4 targets if they're 2 or 3 HP's, stuff like Battlewagons, Predators, Russ tanks, Sicarans, Hellhounds, etc.

This is why vehicles need some form of save, i mean it is amazing what a 6+ or 5+ invuln does to a vehicles durability.

Skimmers can jink, and it's not like it's hard for vehicles to claim a cover save...

Yes, skimmers can jink, and that's why the best vehicle-heavy armies since 6E introduced HP's have been skimmer armies, but for other vehicles, while it's not impossible for them to get cover saves, it's not always possible by any means, and is usually only a 5+ not a 4+.

 Desubot wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Well, it's not like the grav weapons are ineffective at killing vehicles, and for armies that rely on vehicles as more than just 35pt battle taxi's, that vehicle killing ability is pretty impressive.

I mean, even splitting fire 4 ways, on average, if you'll still kill all 4 targets if they're 2 or 3 HP's, stuff like Battlewagons, Predators, Russ tanks, Sicarans, Hellhounds, etc.

You can still mitigate a bit of that using terrain or fortifications. depending on the targets being presented.

Oh yes, there are absolutely ways to mitigate that, but it's still a whole lot of effective anti-vehicle firepower. Even if you're only splitting those 40 shots between two targets, you're still likely to kill two 3HP vehicles even through a 4+ save.

you are forcing there big hitters to waste shots to get to the juicy stuff. sure you can always roll 4+ 6s. and it happens. but thats at least 10 gravs not going to your marines or whatever.

For armies like IG or Orks, the vehicles are the big targets that the grav weapons are going to want to go for anyway, and the Syhammer force likely is only half the army, so there's likely additional anti-tank to crack transports and whatnot to help the grav guns get to the juicy bits if need be

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Well, it's not like the grav weapons are ineffective at killing vehicles, and for armies that rely on vehicles as more than just 35pt battle taxi's, that vehicle killing ability is pretty impressive.

I mean, even splitting fire 4 ways, on average, if you'll still kill all 4 targets if they're 2 or 3 HP's, stuff like Battlewagons, Predators, Russ tanks, Sicarans, Hellhounds, etc.

You can still mitigate a bit of that using terrain or fortifications. depending on the targets being presented.

Oh yes, there are absolutely ways to mitigate that, but it's still a whole lot of effective anti-vehicle firepower. Even if you're only splitting those 40 shots between two targets, you're still likely to kill two 3HP vehicles even through a 4+ save.

you are forcing there big hitters to waste shots to get to the juicy stuff. sure you can always roll 4+ 6s. and it happens. but thats at least 10 gravs not going to your marines or whatever.

For armies like IG or Orks, the vehicles are the big targets that the grav weapons are going to want to go for anyway, and the Syhammer force likely is only half the army, so there's likely additional anti-tank to crack transports and whatnot to help the grav guns get to the juicy bits if need be

Ja but Luckily some of the armies like IG have a better chance of dealing with it then most. get that bubble wrap handy. you can always bubble wrap with other vehicles like chimeras too. IIRC guradsman should come up high enough to get at least a russ 5+ intervening cover saves.

I cant think of another half an army from just space marines that can effectively kill off vehicles that fast. besides other drop pods or melta bikes. Las devs could work i guess or some tri las pred formations but fitting that all in sounds nuts even before troops or god forbid a demi .