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 welshhoppo wrote:

Merellin wrote:
Only time I saw a Primarch used was in Apocalypse. It was Rowboat Girlyman and he got assaulted by a unit of Gants and got stuck there for the rest of the match.. He dident seem very impressive or dangerous.

Someone did the math, Rowboat is actually the best fighter out of the Primarchs except for Horus.

Logar is probably the best one. Because he chooses his psychic powers and passes his tests on 3+. And has really good deny the witch .

Good. I play Word Bearers, so this pleases me.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Toofast wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Ever want to realize how not-OP a primarch is? Charge them with an equivalently costed IK. See what happens.

charge the Primarch with an Imperial Knight. An Imperial Knight to kill off one model. One of the best non FW Super Heavies within the game to kill ONE none MC, none SH, none GC model. And that is your definition of balanced?
Oh, and I nearly forgot the fact that you pretty much drowned him in the rest of your armies shooting first.

Considering the point cost is about the same, yes they are fairly balanced. You're one of the only people I've ever heard complaining that they're OP. 30k players only take primarchs in "fun" games because most of them aren't worth the points compared to the rest of the stuff available to 30k armies...

*snorts*, in what sane universe are Primarchs balanced? Especially in a 40K game.

They're a LoW. And not a very good one either compared to other LoW's in their points bracket.

 Gunnvulcan wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:

Merellin wrote:
Only time I saw a Primarch used was in Apocalypse. It was Rowboat Girlyman and he got assaulted by a unit of Gants and got stuck there for the rest of the match.. He dident seem very impressive or dangerous.

Someone did the math, Rowboat is actually the best fighter out of the Primarchs except for Horus.

Logar is probably the best one. Because he chooses his psychic powers and passes his tests on 3+. And has really good deny the witch .

Good. I play Word Bearers, so this pleases me.

Well for the love of Khorne don't check out the awesome legion rules for the Word Bearers,Malone with their awesome special units. Because you'll never want to play 40k again.

Primarchs have a couple of problems. They're expensive by themselves, and only get more expensive because they need a bodyguard and a transport to deliver them. That alone can account for nearly 750-1000pts for some armies, meaning you can easily focus on the rest of the army and play to the objectives. They're not immune to D. They're not immune to Stomps. They're not immune to any other "remove from play" abilities.

Knights really are a good answer to Primarchs. Some Primarchs can do well against a Knight, but not all (Fulgrim, in particular, has very little chance of hurting a Knight), and it still just takes one 6 on the D or Stomp table to remove the Primarch.

True, there are very few characters within 40K that can go toe-to-toe with a Primarch for more than a turn or so (this is to be expected, as there are no characters in 40K that cost over 300 points, that I'm aware of), but CM Smashfether can at least tarpit some of them for a few turns.

At the end of the day, a Primarch is a 400+ point model. Treat it as such. A 400pt dedicated assault unit will roll like a train through most armies, as well.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Silverthorne wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Yes, several times.
One of my friends (and regular opponents) collects the Primarchs and as of current has 7 of them. I have fought: Angron, Curze and Vulkan. Curze fethed half my army over, Angron butchered a most of it too but I managed to nearly kill Vulkan (he was on one wound and the game ended before I could end him - it still cost me half my army). All these where in games where we had agreed to no Lords of War and my opponent had neither asked nor sought my consent in the bringing of 30K models to a 40K game. Needless to say I was not happy on any occasion.

[EDIT]

I should also add that in my opinion Primarchs are waaayyyyy too over powered to be used in sup apocalypse games (baring 30K where everything is like that).

He pretty much got your consent when you played the game.

Well that might have rung true if said Primarch had been on the table at the start of the game and not hiding inside a transport. Or Deepstriking. They never seem to start on the board.

@GangstaMuffin24: I didnt allow him. He just brought the Primarch, hid it inside a transport/DS'd it in and the popped it on a later turn. And apparently this is fine but me bringing a Shadowsword and ensuring my opponent knew about its presence by having it on the table from turn 1 was a terrible and game breaking thing.

That's just your opponent being an utter ass. Please don't let that color your perceptions when your opponent is, in essence, cheating you.

Direct my whole army's shooting at him? What?

Dude, here's what happened: guy rolls up in a land raider with some 15 man PA assault unit of some kind. Use meltavets to make one dead land raider-that's points efficient. Then use Wyverns to drown the PA guys in wounds-that's points efficient, a Wyvern only costs 4 marines. Then use a 400 point knight to kill a 400 point character, guaran-freaking-teed, there is no way he's surviving D+Stomps and no way he's killing my AV13 6HP.

If you can pretty much guarantee killing something of equal worth with no chance of retaliation, it's not his thing that's OP.

400 point characters aren't "OP." 400 point Superheavies are.

I dunno. 400 pts lord of war choice, designed to take out masses of enemy infantry.

Both primarch and knight do the same job, for the same cost and slot.

Make them fight each other and the fact primarchs are infantry makes them weak to the knight. That's it.

So for a infantry crushing lord of war - in the 350-400pt bracket - seems pretty balanced.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Well that might have rung true if said Primarch had been on the table at the start of the game and not hiding inside a transport. Or Deepstriking. They never seem to start on the board.

@GangstaMuffin24: I didnt allow him. He just brought the Primarch, hid it inside a transport/DS'd it in and the popped it on a later turn. And apparently this is fine but me bringing a Shadowsword and ensuring my opponent knew about its presence by having it on the table from turn 1 was a terrible and game breaking thing.

That's not cool at all, I show all my army and what models are what who my warlord is and stuff and I expect to know at a minimum what my opponent is bringing first

I once saw Angron get into CC with Tau... it was glorious and ended much like you would think.

I would rather face any Primarch than the Iron Hands unkillable man.

The Primarchs cost more, are easier to kill, and slower.

Who is the Iron Hands unkillable man?

 master of ordinance wrote:
Who is the Iron Hands unkillable man?

Apparently it's not Ferrus Manus because as they say: "He's dead Jim".

It could be a reference to Chapter Master Smashfether.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
It could be a reference to Chapter Master Smashfether.

Glory be thy name!

 DarthSpader wrote:
I dunno. 400 pts lord of war choice, designed to take out masses of enemy infantry.

Both primarch and knight do the same job, for the same cost and slot.

Make them fight each other and the fact primarchs are infantry makes them weak to the knight. That's it.

So for a infantry crushing lord of war - in the 350-400pt bracket - seems pretty balanced.

Yeah? Knights are for infantry? They don't have anything at all that would let them destroy any vehicle or MC in the game would they? God I could have sworn they had strength D or something.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
I would rather face any Primarch than the Iron Hands unkillable man.

The Primarchs cost more, are easier to kill, and slower.

A model with AS 3+, INV SAVE 4+, 5 to 6 wounds and IWND is not unkillable.
If its left in the open for a round, it will be dead.

Before the new Necron codex dropped, I played against Horus.

I got my lord in combat with him, made Horus take a Mindshackle scarab test and procceeded to laugh my ass off while Horus beat his own ass up.
I don't think I've laughed as hard at someone's misery since then.

Yes. My ally shot Horus to death with four volleys of stormbolters from GKT squads. (In one turn, though that was all of his GKTs.)

Well it's like Angron, who has a fear of missile launchers.

They are tough to kill, but not too tough to kill.

Still waiting for daemon primarch rules. They'll be boss.

They have what for weapons?

Battle cannon = blast. Good for infantry. (Ok for med-light vehicles)
Gatling cannon. - infantry
Melta cannon? Short range, blast, ok for vehicles ok for infantry.

A pair of cc weapons.

Yea they have str D - but based on the style of attacks they seem geared to controlling infantry - maybe some MC or a vehicle In a pinch.
Close combat - either way

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
damn, im starting CSM and having horus or something would be a nice surprise for the enemy! Oh well, looks like ill be suck with Lord of Skulls, heldrake and tyhon (proxy for typus)

Horus got mind by the Emps

To the comment about throwing an IK at them, you have read their rules right?
Because being in combat with a few of them is the last place you want your knight.

Yes it has a D weapon, but it needs to live long enough to swing it at them.



But OT - they are solid choices but aren't OTT amazing.
And considering it eats your LOW slot, there are better choices.
I do like running vulkan or Ferris from time to time though.








Edit: for examples, vulkan is S10, AP1 with armourbane and 4 attacks, striking at initiative.
So you would put a IK in combat with that?

The best primarch is Alpharius Omegon

 Jackal wrote:
Edit: for examples, vulkan is S10, AP1 with armourbane and 4 attacks, striking at initiative.
So you would put a IK in combat with that?

Yes, because he'll hit with 3 attacks, penning on a 4+ (on 2d6) means 3 pens, or roughly .5 explodes - so right around 3-5 hullpoints.

Then, between stomps and the D chainsword, all you need is a single 6 and there goes Vulkan. Woop.

All you need is a single 6.

So, you roll to hit, roll to wound then rolls some 6's just like that.
Seems like a plan if the knight had a ton of attacks.

Also, this is providing nothing shot the knight on the way there (since the game isn't in a bubble)




However, the only similarity is they are both LOW choices.
Other than that they work completely different.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Jackal wrote:
Edit: for examples, vulkan is S10, AP1 with armourbane and 4 attacks, striking at initiative.
So you would put a IK in combat with that?

Yes, because he'll hit with 3 attacks, penning on a 4+ (on 2d6) means 3 pens, or roughly .5 explodes - so right around 3-5 hullpoints.

Then, between stomps and the D chainsword, all you need is a single 6 and there goes Vulkan. Woop.

Rhis is why Primarchs belong in 30k where D is everywhere and when it is, it isnt stupidly overpowered

However, I will say that vulkan is one hell of a point sink in comparison.
As you don't just take him on his own.

He will be with a unit inside a land raider, so the points have easily doubled, if not close to tripled if taking his termites.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Jackal wrote:
Edit: for examples, vulkan is S10, AP1 with armourbane and 4 attacks, striking at initiative.
So you would put a IK in combat with that?

Yes, because he'll hit with 3 attacks, penning on a 4+ (on 2d6) means 3 pens, or roughly .5 explodes - so right around 3-5 hullpoints.

Then, between stomps and the D chainsword, all you need is a single 6 and there goes Vulkan. Woop.

Rhis is why Primarchs belong in 30k where D is everywhere and when it is, it isnt stupidly overpowered

Actually, Strength D is everywhere in 40K, not 30K, and 30K still uses the exact same rules for D. There are optional rules, but I would argue they're even nastier most of the time.

I suppose I am confused. A 30k player cannot take a LoW below 2k points and then it cannot be more than 25% of your army. So at 2k and above people can't handle a LoW? How do people do it with less points in a normal 40k game then?

In 40k, you can easily bring D to a 500 pt game.

This is not a thing in 30k.

They do it by making posts on forums about how OP and broke x race and y unit is. And "how to beat it" etc etc

Usually acompinied by a river of tears, and a slightly aged (but not fine) quality wine.