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Naaris wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

Naaris wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

Naaris wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Due to the D6 system, there is no mathematical niche for them. Also, 4+ armor is relatively rare, and that kills them as well. Maybe if you could upgrade them to AP 3...

What version of 40k do you play Martel?

All Eldar- minus bikes and some aspect warriors
Dark Eldar are affected by AP4 - except maybe some MCs
Harlequins
All Nids except big beasts
All Orks except a few bigger elite models
All Tau infantry and fast attack infantry
All Astra militarum infantry
I'd also assume most inquisition
Necron Warriors and tombblades have a 4+ save, same with crypteks
Most Admech

He plays Blood Angels. I would feel sorry for him.

All I'm trying to show is that AP4 is actually abundant through out 40k. EXCEPT FOR MARINES, who have what? 1 unit with AP4? Almost every army in the game, other than marines, have troops that ap4 would negate their armor saves.

Compared to AP1, 2, 3 and 5, AP4 is a rarity for IoM

Autocannons
Heavy Bolters
Power Mauls
Power Lances
Storm Eagle Rockets
Whirlwind rockets
Thunderfire cannons
Heavy flamers

That's 8 weapons...

Do you mean it's common?

Yeah it should be common. Why do marines need weapons that would be designed to purposely kill other marines. Their job is to kill the xenos, heretics, purge worlds and kill demons that don't have armor saves.

Perhaps Marine players need a wake up call.

Where on the Emperor's golden Terra did you come up with these thoughts? The Heavy bolter is about as underwhelming as Harlequins. Give that sucker AP3 and suddenly its become a smidgin better.

Right Bharring,

Marine players need wake up calls. Your armies are actually pretty fluffy. They have weapons designed to kill the Xenos from range. Tough Xenos that your AP4 don't kill are mean to be taken out in glorious combat and all that crap that marines live for. Get that blood all over them and such, with their AP 3 and 2 close combat weapons.

If they made them like the old Deathwatch HBs (assault 3) but with a range closer to the current heavy bolted, that would be a nice upgrade to have. Not so much with their current profile as a heavy weapon.

Naaris wrote:
Right Bharring,

Marine players need wake up calls. Your armies are actually pretty fluffy. They have weapons designed to kill the Xenos from range. Tough Xenos that your AP4 don't kill are mean to be taken out in glorious combat and all that crap that marines live for. Get that blood all over them and such, with their AP 3 and 2 close combat weapons.

Have you played against Tau as Marines? Marines can't outrange gak against Tau. Close Combat? Feth that nonsense. 15" away from a Fire Warrior squad is a kill zone.

I don't think anything is wrong with them. I use a devi squad of 4 of them and use the Imperial Fist tactics because I play crimson fists. They are a great support for my deepstriking sternguard.

 btgrimaldus wrote:
I don't think anything is wrong with them I use a devi squad of them a use the i.perial fist tactics cause I play crimson fists they are a great support for my deepstriking sternguard.

Were you asleep everytime your school teacher did a lesson about the use of punctuation or something?

I'd say make them:

18"/36" S5 AP 4 2/4 salvo. 36"

10pts

Ammo types-
Standard-as above
Hellfire 18"/36" S1 AP5 2/4salvo poisoned(3+) soulblaze rule
Kraken 12"/24" S5 AP3 Salvo 2/4

Must declare ammo type when choosing target

Naaris wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Due to the D6 system, there is no mathematical niche for them. Also, 4+ armor is relatively rare, and that kills them as well. Maybe if you could upgrade them to AP 3...

What version of 40k do you play Martel?

All Eldar- minus bikes and some aspect warriors
Dark Eldar are affected by AP4 - except maybe some MCs
Harlequins
All Nids except big beasts
All Orks except a few bigger elite models
All Tau infantry and fast attack infantry
All Astra militarum infantry
I'd also assume most inquisition
Necron Warriors and tombblades have a 4+ save, same with crypteks
Most Admech

I play a version of 40K where my opponents don't frequently have units with 4+ armor.

Eldar never have 4+ armor anymore because scatbikes. There's no reason to use any of the Eldar 4+ units when scatbikes exist. I can't tell you how much I hate that unit.

Necrons have 4+, but warriors are the only thing. It's not worth bringing the HB, when autocannons generate more wounds vs Wraiths and such.

A lot of what you listed has 5+ armor, which is penetrated by boltguns.

There's just no reason to ever voluntarily bring a heavy bolter.

"There is no reason to use any of the Eldar 4+..."
Because Scatter Bikes are stupid.

That is reason enough for many Eldar players. Perhaps not in your meta. But Eldar 4+s do get fielded.

Against Necrons, rarely do Loyalists get to pick between Autocannons and HB.

I actually agree with Martel on maybe S6. It would still be just 3 shots, but they'd be slightly better quality.
Outside of that, Heavy 4 would be better.

I also propose Storm Bolters be S5 top but that's a different topic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Bharring, Tomb Blades don't have 4+ armor because literally everyone and their mother takes the 3+ upgrade.

Wouldn't know.

I was just saying that Autocannons being better vs Wraiths doesnt do much to Heavy Bolters, as you almost never pick between the two.

At S6 it starts infringing on Plasma Cannon territory. Perhaps the better solution there is to allow Loyalists to take Autocannons as weapons?

As for Salvo 2/4 S6, you've basically invented the ScatterLaser +2.

Yeah, it's pretty close to the scatter laser at that point - but the scatter laser isn't, by itself, OP. What's OP is the ability to mount arbitrarily many of them on cheap, ultra-fast, relatively durable Troop-slot units. (War Walkers can generate scatspam too, but they could in the last codex, and how often did you see that?)

The Imperium mostly doesn't have the ability to spam scatter lasers in those kind of numbers.

Bharring wrote:
"There is no reason to use any of the Eldar 4+..."
Because Scatter Bikes are stupid.

That is reason enough for many Eldar players. Perhaps not in your meta. But Eldar 4+s do get fielded.

Against Necrons, rarely do Loyalists get to pick between Autocannons and HB.

If they're not fielded against me, it doesn't help me in the slightest. And it will completely color my view of the heavy bolter. Which, as it turns out, is unpopular in general. Wounding MCs on 5's and allowing armor saves blows as well. There's nothing they are any good against that anyone cares about anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jade_angel wrote:
Yeah, it's pretty close to the scatter laser at that point - but the scatter laser isn't, by itself, OP. What's OP is the ability to mount arbitrarily many of them on cheap, ultra-fast, relatively durable Troop-slot units. (War Walkers can generate scatspam too, but they could in the last codex, and how often did you see that?)

The Imperium mostly doesn't have the ability to spam scatter lasers in those kind of numbers.

It's pretty OP by itself in the 7.5 ruleset. It's anti-infantry, anti-heavy infantry, anti-MC, anti-light vehicle, anti-medium vehicle and effectively ignores cover for infantry, since it was never relying on armor penetration anyway. It's the ultimate weapon for 7th ed, but has been tabling people since around 4th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Wouldn't know.

I was just saying that Autocannons being better vs Wraiths doesnt do much to Heavy Bolters, as you almost never pick between the two.

At S6 it starts infringing on Plasma Cannon territory. Perhaps the better solution there is to allow Loyalists to take Autocannons as weapons?

As for Salvo 2/4 S6, you've basically invented the ScatterLaser +2.

Who care about plasma cannons, anyway? They are awful garbage.

If plasma cannons were, say, Salvo 1/3 without Blast, they might be somewhat interesting. As it stands, every time I take them I'm disappointed. The kind of targets they'd be interesting against mostly don't exist anymore. (Terminators are rare, you'll only hit one Centurion, Grotesques and Tyranid Warriors survive it, Oblits survive, and there are better, more generic ways to take out clustered jump pack Marines).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, if 3 shots of S5 AP4 is garbage, and 4 shots of S6 AP6 is OP, there's not much room in there for a weapon that's useful but not broken, ne?

Martel732 wrote:
Due to the D6 system, there is no mathematical niche for them. Also, 4+ armor is relatively rare, and that kills them as well. Maybe if you could upgrade them to AP 3...

The troops choices of the Tau, Eldar & Necrons have a 4+ save or worse. And they're arguably the best army's in the game

But it still needs some love. So do Terminators, Tac squads, Asm...frack, all of the SMs & associated codexes with their 2nd ed equipment. 3rd EDITION STYLE REBOOT Y'ALL!

jade_angel wrote:
If plasma cannons were, say, Salvo 1/3 without Blast, they might be somewhat interesting. As it stands, every time I take them I'm disappointed. The kind of targets they'd be interesting against mostly don't exist anymore. (Terminators are rare, you'll only hit one Centurion, Grotesques and Tyranid Warriors survive it, Oblits survive, and there are better, more generic ways to take out clustered jump pack Marines).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, if 3 shots of S5 AP4 is garbage, and 4 shots of S6 AP6 is OP, there's not much room in there for a weapon that's useful but not broken, ne?

That's been my contention this whole time. The D6 system is not granulated enough to accommodate the number of weapons in the game. The click from S5 to s6 is enormous in 7th ed. S6 kills IK. S5 does not. S6 glances out falcons and dreads. S5 does not. The platforms also matter, as I could argue that the heavy bolter should BETTER than the scatterlaser, because of the limited and slow platforms it comes on. This, however, is not the case, and that just makes the plight of the heavy bolter doubly bad.

 Red Marine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Due to the D6 system, there is no mathematical niche for them. Also, 4+ armor is relatively rare, and that kills them as well. Maybe if you could upgrade them to AP 3...

The troops choices of the Tau, Eldar & Necrons have a 4+ save or worse. And they're arguably the best army's in the game

4+ is also the general cover save. Your argument is flimsy

 Red Marine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Due to the D6 system, there is no mathematical niche for them. Also, 4+ armor is relatively rare, and that kills them as well. Maybe if you could upgrade them to AP 3...

The troops choices of the Tau, Eldar & Necrons have a 4+ save or worse. And they're arguably the best army's in the game

The troop choices of Eldar have 3+. Other Eldar troops are irrelevant, as they are inferior. Eldar and Necrons usually get cover, making AP 4 worthless. The frequency of cover really kills the AP 4 on the heavy bolter and makes it so only S and ROF are relevant. Scatterlasers just burn you down through cover. A confluence of mathematics make the scatterlaser so OP.

Given the mathematical constraints, my answer to the OP is likely, "nothing". They are just bad now and forever will be bad.

Another answer then might well be reworking the Cover System to be either hit/wound modifiers instead of Cover providing an alternate cover save.

Other troop choices are irrelevant, you say?

1) You mean irrelevant to you. It isn't irrelevant to those who field or face them frequently.
2) Why do you never see those choices? Because the things that kill them well are too common/cheap. So why buff something that's best at killing things that already don't compete?

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Red Marine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Due to the D6 system, there is no mathematical niche for them. Also, 4+ armor is relatively rare, and that kills them as well. Maybe if you could upgrade them to AP 3...

The troops choices of the Tau, Eldar & Necrons have a 4+ save or worse. And they're arguably the best army's in the game

4+ is also the general cover save. Your argument is flimsy

If my argument is flimsy yours is irrelevant. A cover save is immune to ALL AMOR PENETRATION. The relevance of cover in this discussion is minimal at best. Ignores Cover is an uncommon usr, & if you want to talk about cover saves you must include FNP & invul saves.

We need to narrow the debate to a few points. As it stands we're comparing it to every weapon in the game & against every miniature in the game. The HB a tool foe a specific purpose. Its supposed to take out light & medium infantry.
-Does it do that well?
-What weapons do that job better?
-How does the HB compare?
-Etc, etc.

The Heavy Bolter is better compared to the Shuriken Cannon. That is the more analogous weapon.

Heavy 3 24" S6 AP5 fake-rending.

The reality of why scatter lasers are so good is how many of them you can get for so cheap and the fact that everything in the eldar codex can move and shoot the MF. If heavy bolters were assault 4 and costed 10 points they would be on every tac squad. 4 man Devs with HB would be common place support units. The fact that you are anchored to the ground to shoot the thing makes it worthless.

 Xenomancers wrote:
The reality of why scatter lasers are so good is how many of them you can get for so cheap and the fact that everything in the eldar codex can move and shoot the MF. If heavy bolters were assault 4 and costed 10 points they would be on every tac squad. 4 man Devs with HB would be common place support units. The fact that you are anchored to the ground to shoot the thing makes it worthless.

If Heavy Bolters were assault 4, they still would be useless, at least in my meta.

 Red Marine wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Red Marine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Due to the D6 system, there is no mathematical niche for them. Also, 4+ armor is relatively rare, and that kills them as well. Maybe if you could upgrade them to AP 3...

The troops choices of the Tau, Eldar & Necrons have a 4+ save or worse. And they're arguably the best army's in the game

4+ is also the general cover save. Your argument is flimsy

If my argument is flimsy yours is irrelevant. A cover save is immune to ALL AMOR PENETRATION. The relevance of cover in this discussion is minimal at best. Ignores Cover is an uncommon usr, & if you want to talk about cover saves you must include FNP & invul saves.

But the scatterlaser doesn't rely on armor penetration. It doesn't have any to speak of. Therefore, it has defacto ignores cover. Except against 2+ rerollable jink, etc. Defacto ignore normal cover shall we say.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Other troop choices are irrelevant, you say?

1) You mean irrelevant to you. It isn't irrelevant to those who field or face them frequently.
2) Why do you never see those choices? Because the things that kill them well are too common/cheap. So why buff something that's best at killing things that already don't compete?

No, we don't see those choices because 36" guns on a platform that moves 12" is stupid good. The scatterbike would be awesome with 5+ armor, it just wouldn't be quite as broken. Heavy bolters don't keep DA off the field, scatterbikes do.

S5 doesn't abuse the hull point mechanic enough to be worth it. That's the bottom line. Shuriken cannon are still better than heavy bolter because of rending and S6. S6 is the panacea.

We need to narrow the debate to a few points. As it stands we're comparing it to every weapon in the game & against every miniature in the game. The HB is a tool for a specific purpose. Its supposed to take out light & medium infantry.
-Does it do that well?
-What weapons do that job better?
-How does the HB compare?
-Etc, etc.

I still think they are fine. The only thing I can see giving them, for fluff and not game reasons, is rending.

 Red Marine wrote:
We need to narrow the debate to a few points. As it stands we're comparing it to every weapon in the game & against every miniature in the game. The HB a tool foe a specific purpose. Its supposed to take out light & medium infantry.
-Does it do that well?
-What weapons do that job better?
-How does the HB compare?
-Etc, etc.

Other weapons do this job as well as other jobs. And aren't on ass-terrible platforms like devastator marines and predator tanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 btgrimaldus wrote:
I still think they are fine. The only thing I can see giving them, for fluff and not game reasons, is rending.

You can certainly have that opinion, but there's little evidence to back it up.

Anytime you read about them they are shredding up infantry or a light transport. The # of shots is good and the strength isn't the worst. The rending would be that extra umph to tear things apart.

 btgrimaldus wrote:
Anytime you read about them they are shredding up infantry or a light transport. The # of shots is good and the strength isn't the worst. The rending would be that extra umph to tear things apart.

I don't trust batreps or anecdotes. I trust math. I should have said mathematical evidence. And math says they are terrible against nearly every vehicle and most commonly used infantry. And infantry can trivially get a 5+ cover save, Negating 66% of the AP 4.