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I think the idea of Space Marines with heavy bolters is cool. But I never include them in any list because... they suck.

What stat line would they need to be a sometimes include?

What stat line would they need to be an auto include?

Or maybe you already take them and I just have horrible luck with them?



I didn't see the other thread about heavy bolters until after I posted this... oops

They need more shots. Maybe make them Salvo 2/4 guns instead of Heavy 3. The problem is it's hard to make them effective without turning them into assault cannons, which fill the same niche role and generally replaces the heavy bolter whenever given the chance.

Due to the D6 system, there is no mathematical niche for them. Also, 4+ armor is relatively rare, and that kills them as well. Maybe if you could upgrade them to AP 3...

In my group we made them Salvo 3/4 for the period of about a year.
It wasn't enough. They still weren't taken.
The only difference observed was that the one extra shot was nice, but we still only saw that extra shot come into effect on units that had the Heavy Bolter to begin with.
Nobody felt motivated to upgrade to Heavy Bolters or to take more of them.

Str 6/7 is the sweet spot, not Str 5. Thanks, D6 system.

If I were to do something to make them into something people would take, probably give them 5-6 shots a piece, but keep the AP and Strength.

This way mass-units of them (in dev squads) can put out enough S5 shots to reliably threaten all types of infantry; against hordes they'd wipe the floor with them. Against Heavy Infantry they have enough shots to force armor saves.

The problem with this though is that while it makes them viable, it ends up stepping on the toes of the assault cannon AND generic bolters, as the former would be readily replaced by this, while the latter loses what little utility they had left.

I would be happy if they were Salvo 3/5 with their current S/AP and price.

I would say the best way to make them more attractive is to let them be employed like they are in DoW2. Either Pinning or a modified version if Concussive would do it, or maybe even Strikedown.

Basically, make them a weapon that promotes synergy between units. Devastators fire on a unit with Heavy Bolters, which apply a Concussive effect when they hit on a 6, rather than when they inflict wounds. The enemy, now at I1, gets mercilessly charged by an Assault Squad.

That would be a much more fun and effective weapon. Hell, I'd take them for Guard if they could do that! Blobs suddenly become a lot more scary when they're striking first.

Awesome ideas! I think I will experiment with some of those stats with my buddy.

I would love to see some heavy bolters laying down some hate while my tacticals advanced

I really like the idea of the pinning HB. It would give more tactical depth and "realism" to a game that has real lacks in these matters.

IMO, I play Guard, and having to pay 10pts for a HWT with HB is even more depressing than doing the same for a devastator. I really think they should be 5pts with a small buff like : R24'' S5 AP4 Salvo 2/4.
They could thus be fielded en masse while being quite useful when put on vehicles; I'm pretty sure 4 shots at S5 can do well by stripping this last wound/HP from this annoying model you just seriously damaged with your main weapons.

Regarding assault cannon, it should be Heavy 6 like the current Kheres pattern from HH. For Termies, that would be great.

Salvo 3/5, Shred and the option to upgrade them to AP3.

If the stormbolter is supposed to be an automatic rifle, the assault cannon should be heavy 12.

To make the HB worth taking, the stuff it kills well needs to be more common.

Salvo 2/3 wouldn't hurt, too.

Bharring wrote:
To make the HB worth taking, the stuff it kills well needs to be more common.

Salvo 2/3 wouldn't hurt, too.

The stuff it's good at killing is only more likely to get LESS common.

Heck, the storm bolter is supposed to be more like an LMG, while the heavy bolter is more of an HMG. (It's pretty much a better version of the heavy stubber, which is a 20th century HMG).

The problem with refactoring the heavy bolter is that it would require retooling of the autocannon and assault cannon too. Not that this would be bad, but it would be yet more power creep. On the other hand, if we have power creep anyway, how do we make such weapons more useful?

Here's a first stab:

Storm bolter: R24 S4 AP5, Assault 2 XOR Heavy 4 (like psycannons and splinter cannons used to be)
Heavy bolter: R36 S6 AP5 Salvo 2/4
Assault cannon: R24 S6 AP4 Heavy 5, Rending
Autocannon: R48 S7 AP4 Heavy 3
Predator autocannon: R48 S7 AP4 Heavy 4
Reaper autocannon: R36 S7 AP4 Salvo 1/3, Twin-linked

Rationale: Predator autocannon brought forward from 30k. No real reason not to, also makes autolas Preds more interesting. Reaper autocannon trades range for mobility. Autocannon/assault cannon get a bump to not be overshadowed by the upgraded heavy bolter. Heavy bolter goes to S6 - its closest xenos equivalents usually are (shuriken cannon, scatter laser), or they have some other bit. Relative to its closest equivalent, the shuriken cannon, it gets better range and ROF in exchange for not having Bladestorm.

Devastators, Devastator Centurions and Retributors armed with heavy bolters gain Pinning. I think having Pinning on vehicle-mounted heavy bolters would be intensely obnoxious, but on infantry it's fine. Should Guard HWTs or Servitors have Pinning?

ETA: oops, gauss cannon is S5. Closest Tau/Necron equivalents are S7, then (missile pod and tesla destructor respectively)


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Also, I do use them but only on Retributors or vehicles currently. The Act of Faith that grants Rending is pretty useful.

jade_angel wrote:
Heck, the storm bolter is supposed to be more like an LMG, while the heavy bolter is more of an HMG. (It's pretty much a better version of the heavy stubber, which is a 20th century HMG).

The problem with refactoring the heavy bolter is that it would require retooling of the autocannon and assault cannon too. Not that this would be bad, but it would be yet more power creep. On the other hand, if we have power creep anyway, how do we make such weapons more useful?

Here's a first stab:

Storm bolter: R24 S4 AP5, Assault 2 XOR Heavy 4 (like psycannons and splinter cannons used to be)
Heavy bolter: R36 S6 AP5 Salvo 2/4
Assault cannon: R24 S6 AP4 Heavy 5, Rending
Autocannon: R48 S7 AP4 Heavy 3
Predator autocannon: R48 S7 AP4 Heavy 4
Reaper autocannon: R36 S7 AP4 Salvo 1/3, Twin-linked

Rationale: Predator autocannon brought forward from 30k. No real reason not to, also makes autolas Preds more interesting. Reaper autocannon trades range for mobility. Autocannon/assault cannon get a bump to not be overshadowed by the upgraded heavy bolter. Heavy bolter goes to S6 - its closest xenos equivalents usually are (shuriken cannon, scatter laser), or they have some other bit. Relative to its closest equivalent, the shuriken cannon, it gets better range and ROF in exchange for not having Bladestorm.

Devastators, Devastator Centurions and Retributors armed with heavy bolters gain Pinning. I think having Pinning on vehicle-mounted heavy bolters would be intensely obnoxious, but on infantry it's fine. Should Guard HWTs or Servitors have Pinning?

ETA: oops, gauss cannon is S5. Closest Tau/Necron equivalents are S7, then (missile pod and tesla destructor respectively)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I do use them but only on Retributors or vehicles currently. The Act of Faith that grants Rending is pretty useful.

I really like these. I don't think it really amps up the power creep so much as allows these weapons to "keep up with the Joneses" so to speak. I may actually talk to my buddy about playtesting these and tweaking them....

I think if HBs were even salvo 3/3 it would give them a niche as a cheep weapon to toss into a tac squad. Dropping them down to 5 points would help a lot there.

So if you wanted a heavy you could fire on the move, you’d have two choices, the HB and the grav cannon.

The hellfire rounds should also be free for scouts and sternguard.

I think salvo 3/5 and Pinning Is perfect for it. I makes it a tactical option over the Assault cannon. Marines really don't have any long range horde control, this would change that

My concern with a high second salvo number is the fact they they are on a lot of vehicles/relentless platforms.

And while I’d love to be tossing 10 shots downrange from a 45 point land speeder, “scatbikes for everyone!” is not a good answer IMHO.

What about giving them a special rule like Tesla so that a "6" gives them two extra hits?

Currently I'm a fan of "All Bolters reroll 1s to-wound". If the impact doesn't get you, the blast will. Specialist ammo would forfeit the Reroll 1s ability, as the mass-reactive warhead gets replaced by who knows what? Make the Heavy Bolter Heavy 4 and you're mostly set.

The molecular acid rounds for hh dark angels have made heavy bolters a must take for me.

Str 2 ap d6 poison 2+ heavy 3, I'm even considering taking a Mortis contemptor with 2 heavy bolters for that reason, when was the last time you saw that!

 Galef wrote:
I think salvo 3/5 and Pinning Is perfect for it. I makes it a tactical option over the Assault cannon. Marines really don't have any long range horde control, this would change that

Yep - this is what I have always thought too...it really is okay that it becomes strong because everything is strong now.

Martel732 wrote:
Due to the D6 system, there is no mathematical niche for them. Also, 4+ armor is relatively rare, and that kills them as well. Maybe if you could upgrade them to AP 3...

What version of 40k do you play Martel?

All Eldar- minus bikes and some aspect warriors
Dark Eldar are affected by AP4 - except maybe some MCs
Harlequins
All Nids except big beasts
All Orks except a few bigger elite models
All Tau infantry and fast attack infantry
All Astra militarum infantry
I'd also assume most inquisition
Necron Warriors and tombblades have a 4+ save, same with crypteks
Most Admech

Naaris wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Due to the D6 system, there is no mathematical niche for them. Also, 4+ armor is relatively rare, and that kills them as well. Maybe if you could upgrade them to AP 3...

What version of 40k do you play Martel?

All Eldar- minus bikes and some aspect warriors
Dark Eldar are affected by AP4 - except maybe some MCs
Harlequins
All Nids except big beasts
All Orks except a few bigger elite models
All Tau infantry and fast attack infantry
All Astra militarum infantry
I'd also assume most inquisition
Necron Warriors and tombblades have a 4+ save, same with crypteks
Most Admech

He plays Blood Angels. I would feel sorry for him.

Nids have 5 MCs with 4+ btw
- helps the argument a little.

I like HBs, and from being a Nid player the HB feels fine. I have a whole Dev squad with them. I do however like the idea of salvo, but still i feel they are "okay" as they are.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

Naaris wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Due to the D6 system, there is no mathematical niche for them. Also, 4+ armor is relatively rare, and that kills them as well. Maybe if you could upgrade them to AP 3...

What version of 40k do you play Martel?

All Eldar- minus bikes and some aspect warriors
Dark Eldar are affected by AP4 - except maybe some MCs
Harlequins
All Nids except big beasts
All Orks except a few bigger elite models
All Tau infantry and fast attack infantry
All Astra militarum infantry
I'd also assume most inquisition
Necron Warriors and tombblades have a 4+ save, same with crypteks
Most Admech

He plays Blood Angels. I would feel sorry for him.

All I'm trying to show is that AP4 is actually abundant through out 40k. EXCEPT FOR MARINES, who have what? 1 unit with AP4? Almost every army in the game, other than marines, have troops that ap4 would negate their armor saves.

Naaris wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

Naaris wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Due to the D6 system, there is no mathematical niche for them. Also, 4+ armor is relatively rare, and that kills them as well. Maybe if you could upgrade them to AP 3...

What version of 40k do you play Martel?

All Eldar- minus bikes and some aspect warriors
Dark Eldar are affected by AP4 - except maybe some MCs
Harlequins
All Nids except big beasts
All Orks except a few bigger elite models
All Tau infantry and fast attack infantry
All Astra militarum infantry
I'd also assume most inquisition
Necron Warriors and tombblades have a 4+ save, same with crypteks
Most Admech

He plays Blood Angels. I would feel sorry for him.

All I'm trying to show is that AP4 is actually abundant through out 40k. EXCEPT FOR MARINES, who have what? 1 unit with AP4? Almost every army in the game, other than marines, have troops that ap4 would negate their armor saves.

Compared to AP1, 2, 3 and 5, AP4 is a rarity for IoM

Autocannons
Heavy Bolters
Power Mauls
Power Lances
Storm Eagle Rockets
Whirlwind rockets
Thunderfire cannons
Heavy flamers

That's 8 weapons...

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

Naaris wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

Naaris wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Due to the D6 system, there is no mathematical niche for them. Also, 4+ armor is relatively rare, and that kills them as well. Maybe if you could upgrade them to AP 3...

What version of 40k do you play Martel?

All Eldar- minus bikes and some aspect warriors
Dark Eldar are affected by AP4 - except maybe some MCs
Harlequins
All Nids except big beasts
All Orks except a few bigger elite models
All Tau infantry and fast attack infantry
All Astra militarum infantry
I'd also assume most inquisition
Necron Warriors and tombblades have a 4+ save, same with crypteks
Most Admech

He plays Blood Angels. I would feel sorry for him.

All I'm trying to show is that AP4 is actually abundant through out 40k. EXCEPT FOR MARINES, who have what? 1 unit with AP4? Almost every army in the game, other than marines, have troops that ap4 would negate their armor saves.

Compared to AP1, 2, 3 and 5, AP4 is a rarity for IoM

Autocannons
Heavy Bolters
Power Mauls
Power Lances
Storm Eagle Rockets
Whirlwind rockets
Thunderfire cannons
Heavy flamers

That's 8 weapons...

Do you mean it's common?

Yeah it should be common. Why do marines need weapons that would be designed to purposely kill other marines. Their job is to kill the xenos, heretics, purge worlds and kill demons that don't have armor saves.

Perhaps Marine players need a wake up call.

Well, if you you want to count AP4 saturation, SMs actually dominate.

With the Krak Grenade alone, if you want to be technical. The vast majority of SMs have AP4.

On the more reasonable front, let's list some AP4 SM weapons:
-Heavy Bolter
-Autocannon
-Assault Cannon
-Heavy Flamer
-One Special Issue Ammo type
-Krak grenades
-Whirlwinds
-TFCs

Let's compare that to CWE:
-Hawks' Grenade Pack
-The small blast version of EML
-Plasma Grenades

Harlequins:
-Haywire Blaster

Basically, SM heavier weapons that aren't anti-Armor tend to be AP4. Its just that SM typically care about using weapons that are AP2.


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Edit- Oh, Naaris meant units with a 4+, not AP4 weapons.