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 Grizzyzz wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
Actually, that's not bad, though for the HBG, I'd vote Salvo 4/6 over Heavy 6, simply because mobility matters. A tactical squad probably still wouldn't want the Heavy version because they generally want to move, not camp and shoot (which is why you don't see heavy weapons on tac squads all that often anyway, and the other reason why when you do, the grav cannon is a no-brainer despite its price).

Also like this. Now we are moving in the right direction!

I vote to drop it down to 30" though. 15" when moving is still an effective 21" range.. but it still gives penalty for not "setting up your heavier weapon" so to speak.

R36 is probably fine: Dark Eldar get the splinter cannon, which is a very similar weapon, and it's not OP. The only real difference here is that the HBG would be able to glance AV10, and wound T3 on 3+ - but OTOH, the splinter cannon wounds T5+ on a 4+ still, so it's mostly evenish.

jade_angel wrote:

R36 is probably fine: Dark Eldar get the splinter cannon, which is a very similar weapon, and it's not OP. The only real difference here is that the HBG would be able to glance AV10, and wound T3 on 3+ - but OTOH, the splinter cannon wounds T5+ on a 4+ still, so it's mostly evenish.

That is another plausible concept... what if we made HBG poison? being s4 ap5... wounds T3 on 3+ w/ reroll and also allows for causing more effective damage against MCs

Keep the poison upgrade for Scout HBG

Heavy Bolt Gun: 36", S4, AP5, Salvo4/6
Scout Heavy Bolt Gun: 36", S4, AP5, Salvo4/6, Poison
Gatling Bolt Gun: 36", S4, AP5, Heavy 12, Rending

Bolt Cannon: 36" S6, AP4, Heavy 3.
Gatling Bolt Cannon: 36" S6, DS4, Heavy 6, Rending

True, always forget scouts have that upgrade.

 SRSFACE wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:


The Assault Cannon is pretty much available on the units where it matters - and the gun will never see viable play until it becomes somewhat competitive either in the form of debuffing/buffing special rules (i.e. old Scat-Lasers applying twin-linking) or unless it becomes as potentially monstrous as its rivals (Assault Cannons or Autocannons).

Until it gets buffed it's an overpointed dud. Pyrovore theory man, pyrovore theory.

Is there ever a time you'd not take an assault cannon over a heavy bolter, points allowing, on the units that can take it?

You're comparing apples to oranges, is my point. The only things where there's going to be competition between the two guns is Land Speeders and Razorbacks. I think some Land Raider variants, too? And, on all of those platforms, the heavy bolters are free, so you're comparing a free gun to an upgrade, and being like "WELL THE UPGRADE IS SO MUCH BETTER!" Well, duh. That's why it's an upgrade. That's why it costs points to swap them out.

If Heavy Bolters were available on terminators, or Assault Cannons were available on tactical marines or devastators, you might have a point trying to compare them.

You also forget Dreadnoughts as well mate. Which is exactly the point of this threat - why all the Heavy Bolter hate? Because it's basically the overpointed redheaded stepchild of the Assault Cannon. Hence why other people here are suggesting other options.

Which to be fair, is sensible - but rather than focus on a single weapon (actually keep doing that as well) also focus on the class of weapons as a whole - that's pretty much what happened with Shuriken and Splinter weapons - the whole lot got a buff based on what they were (rending and poison).

I saw an earlier post suggesting rerolling wounds - I like that. I like the shrapnel based Shred idea on bolt weapons. That is the first step towards viability. Shred on bolt weapons?

And perhaps the salvo idea for the heavy bolter for a higher rate of fire.

If the heavy bolter can't be frightening to things because the assault cannon exists then make it so. I love the idea of Salvo 4/6. I love the idea of Salvo 4/6 with shred even more.

I don't remember who said a few pages ago that three Guardsman are as effective at killing Termagants as a heavy bolter HWT, but I just wanted to say that this is not true. Well it's true within 12", but from 12"-24" the HWT is twice as good, and of course lasguns can't shoot up to 36" at all.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:


You also forget Dreadnoughts as well mate. Which is exactly the point of this threat - why all the Heavy Bolter hate? Because it's basically the overpointed redheaded stepchild of the Assault Cannon. Hence why other people here are suggesting other options.

I did forget Dreads, but my point remains the same. You're comparing a gun upgrade to the stock gun, and wondering why the upgrade is so much better.

It's better because it's an upgrade.

I'd also like to point out people in this debate are ignoring the 36" range. Being able to target things with 3 shots between 24"-36" range is not negligible. I often run my attack bikes or Landspeeders stock because I'm hurting for points, and they get to zip around and stay out of harm's way while peppering infantry downfield. Can't do that with assault cannons, as the 24" range means you are right on top of the enemy's killbox next turn.

Oh yeah, barely doing any damage at 24-36" makes it totally worth it.

OR you realize your attack bike or Speeder is going to likely die anyway if there's Kill Points, so you might as well maximize damage done. Heavy Bolter Speeders and Attack Bikes get ignored because they don't do any real damage. That's not exactly a good thing when you camp something with OS on a back objective instead.

I like the idea of getting rid of Assault Cannons and combining them with Heavy bolters. Rng 36 S5 AP4 Heavy 4 Rending. I think that brings it inline with its points value and it actually makes it worth taking.

ROF 4 is far too low for a mini-gun type weapon. Even in an abstracted game.

Better increase tge RoF of the all the tau burst weapons then, huh?


But more seriously, that's why the assault cannon has rending, it's (supposedly) to represent volume of fire.

Martel732 wrote:
ROF 4 is far too low for a mini-gun type weapon. Even in an abstracted game.

True, which is why it would continue to look like the heavy bolter. A M16 can fire around 120 rounds a minute, relatively accurately (this is cyclic and never recommended) a M240 machine gun goes for about 550 rounds per minute. or about 4 times as fast. So in a game with RoF being so important, a cheap weapon like a Heavy Bolter, (keeping its current price) and gaining 1 extra shot with rending is pretty good. Its not on the same level as the Scatter laser, but nothing should be that good honestly.

When I play eldar I ask them not to spam Scat bikes and scatter laser platforms, On the other hand I love it when SM spam Heavy bolters because they suck, so boosting them with 1 extra shot and rending I think makes them a lot more viable. Same amount of Fire power as the assault cannon, longer range and AP4 not bad.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Better increase tge RoF of the all the tau burst weapons then, huh?


But more seriously, that's why the assault cannon has rending, it's (supposedly) to represent volume of fire.

And yet there's a certain Punisher that'S sorely lacking it

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Better increase tge RoF of the all the tau burst weapons then, huh?


But more seriously, that's why the assault cannon has rending, it's (supposedly) to represent volume of fire.

I'd be fine with that too. Their ROF is also too slow. Rending is not an adequate rule to represent that feature of the weapon.

What if they had a rule where they do 2 wounds on any to Wound Roll of a 6? Would make sense both from their RoF, and the fact that they fire explosive shells that could easily cause damage to guys around the guy impacted by the shell itself, or simply explode once it penetrates the armor a bit. The second wound would probably need to be saved separately, but it would certainly make it a great anti-horde option (which is the point of the weapon)

As I said previously, the poison 2+ on the hh dark angels heavy bolter has meant I take them EVERY game now, it's a 5pt upgrade on the normal heavy bolter, gains apd6 but is she range etc. I can't emphasise enough how much better it is, the veteran version is even better as it can move and shoot at full Bs for half range, it's actually replaced my volkites as my go to anti infantry device, it causes just as many wounds normally and has a good chance of ignoring that all important armour save.

Easiest thing for making me want to take Heavy Bolters?

Causing D3 Wounds instead of 1 per shot.

 Formosa wrote:
As I said previously, the poison 2+ on the hh dark angels heavy bolter has meant I take them EVERY game now, it's a 5pt upgrade on the normal heavy bolter, gains apd6 but is she range etc. I can't emphasise enough how much better it is, the veteran version is even better as it can move and shoot at full Bs for half range, it's actually replaced my volkites as my go to anti infantry device, it causes just as many wounds normally and has a good chance of ignoring that all important armour save.

I doubt that would work as a general upgrade to the HB though, as not only is it specific to the DA, but also, as you've said, would end up being probably too good. Though, what about letting anyone with a HB take the Poison Rounds that Scouts get? would certainly let them be better anti-infantry, and (assuming we make the basic shot lower range but assault) would make them a better all-rounder weapon, especially on Tactical Squads.

EDIT: Kan, that's basically what I just said, but my version is just consistently the average of the D3

 Swampmist wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
As I said previously, the poison 2+ on the hh dark angels heavy bolter has meant I take them EVERY game now, it's a 5pt upgrade on the normal heavy bolter, gains apd6 but is she range etc. I can't emphasise enough how much better it is, the veteran version is even better as it can move and shoot at full Bs for half range, it's actually replaced my volkites as my go to anti infantry device, it causes just as many wounds normally and has a good chance of ignoring that all important armour save.

I doubt that would work as a general upgrade to the HB though, as not only is it specific to the DA, but also, as you've said, would end up being probably too good. Though, what about letting anyone with a HB take the Poison Rounds that Scouts get? would certainly let them be better anti-infantry, and (assuming we make the basic shot lower range but assault) would make them a better all-rounder weapon, especially on Tactical Squads.

EDIT: Kan, that's basically what I just said, but my version is just consistently the average of the D3

If you cut the range though your starting to get into the territory of the assault cannon.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
As I said previously, the poison 2+ on the hh dark angels heavy bolter has meant I take them EVERY game now, it's a 5pt upgrade on the normal heavy bolter, gains apd6 but is she range etc. I can't emphasise enough how much better it is, the veteran version is even better as it can move and shoot at full Bs for half range, it's actually replaced my volkites as my go to anti infantry device, it causes just as many wounds normally and has a good chance of ignoring that all important armour save.

I doubt that would work as a general upgrade to the HB though, as not only is it specific to the DA, but also, as you've said, would end up being probably too good. Though, what about letting anyone with a HB take the Poison Rounds that Scouts get? would certainly let them be better anti-infantry, and (assuming we make the basic shot lower range but assault) would make them a better all-rounder weapon, especially on Tactical Squads.

EDIT: Kan, that's basically what I just said, but my version is just consistently the average of the D3

If you cut the range though your starting to get into the territory of the assault cannon.

No, because it would then be an assault weapon, which would be the biggest difference. Yes, HBs are still terrible on vehicles, but generally the HB is the free option, or at the very least cheap one. Something that costs ~20 points more (looking at razorbacks here, not sure on other models, I think it's 20 on dreads too?) SHOULD be better, really. But, if the HB was 24" range, but Assualt three, and for 5-10 points could upgrade to the Hellfire rounds that scouts get, I would certainly take them on my Tacticals at the very least.

 Swampmist wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
As I said previously, the poison 2+ on the hh dark angels heavy bolter has meant I take them EVERY game now, it's a 5pt upgrade on the normal heavy bolter, gains apd6 but is she range etc. I can't emphasise enough how much better it is, the veteran version is even better as it can move and shoot at full Bs for half range, it's actually replaced my volkites as my go to anti infantry device, it causes just as many wounds normally and has a good chance of ignoring that all important armour save.

I doubt that would work as a general upgrade to the HB though, as not only is it specific to the DA, but also, as you've said, would end up being probably too good. Though, what about letting anyone with a HB take the Poison Rounds that Scouts get? would certainly let them be better anti-infantry, and (assuming we make the basic shot lower range but assault) would make them a better all-rounder weapon, especially on Tactical Squads.

EDIT: Kan, that's basically what I just said, but my version is just consistently the average of the D3

"probably too good"

Not a chance, it's amazing at killing infantry (as it should be) but is worse against almost any armour than the assault cannon, but is a viable alternative.

Just make them free.

Against MEqs a snap shot heavy bolter is as good as a bolter in the 12-24" range and half as good in the 0-12" range. If you remain stationary you're as effective as 4 bolter shots at any range less than 36".

So you're basically trading 1 bolter shot at less than 12" for an additional bolter shot at 24"+ and the ability to quadruple your firepower if you remain stationary.

Just make it the default/budget option. It synergizes with your basic infantry weapons and it's free so you're not really losing out on anything if you move. It wouldn't be overpowered since you still have to pay for the squad to carry it plus the opportunity cost of not upgrading it to something better.

Seems like a reasonable solution rather than making it into something it shouldn't be fluffwise. The heavy bolter is supposed to be the cheap ubiquitous workhorse so just make it free and you're good.

Give it AP3 and suspensor webs to allow it to shoot at half range if it moves with the assault profile type.

SemperMortis wrote:
True, which is why it would continue to look like the heavy bolter. A M16 can fire around 120 rounds a minute, relatively accurately (this is cyclic and never recommended) a M240 machine gun goes for about 550 rounds per minute. or about 4 times as fast.

Sorry, what? The M16's cyclic rate is 700-950 (if you could keep it fed for the whole minute) and the 249's rate is 650-850. Cyclic rate is simply how fast the rifle cycles, and the M16 does it really fast.

I personally would like to see HB's be only 5 pts and shoot up to 5 bullets each. The salvo 3/5 idea is nifty because it still lets the unit move around and shoot effectively, and pinning would be a cool thing too

 Mulletdude wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
True, which is why it would continue to look like the heavy bolter. A M16 can fire around 120 rounds a minute, relatively accurately (this is cyclic and never recommended) a M240 machine gun goes for about 550 rounds per minute. or about 4 times as fast.

Sorry, what? The M16's cyclic rate is 700-950 (if you could keep it fed for the whole minute) and the 249's rate is 650-850. Cyclic rate is simply how fast the rifle cycles, and the M16 does it really fast.

I personally would like to see HB's be only 5 pts and shoot up to 5 bullets each. The salvo 3/5 idea is nifty because it still lets the unit move around and shoot effectively, and pinning would be a cool thing too

That is why I specifically mentioned "Accurately", and realistically unless your one of those special kind of people who wants a backpack full of 5.56 and make a belt fed M16 your going to have to load that thing manually and fire it at 3rnd burst, 10 trigger squeezes and a Mag Change. :_ And I Said M240 not M249, I hate the SAW and I think it is a POS. The M240B was the best machine gun I ever used and it had about 10 times less problems then the M249.

Anyway, I would be ok with HBs being 5pts, the only question I have is what would that do to Ork Big Shootas which are essentially crappier versions of Heavy bolters that have the Assault type instead of heavy. Because they are already 5pts and I usually don't field them because I can take a Rokkit for 5pts but realistically I would rather just save the points except on BattleWagons where I field 4 of them.

Salvo doesn't work because of the models. Look at the IG heavy weapon team. There ain't no way that's firing on the move.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Salvo doesn't work because of the models. Look at the IG heavy weapon team. There ain't no way that's firing on the move.

So...then they just fire the second value. All the time. I don't see the issue.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Salvo doesn't work because of the models. Look at the IG heavy weapon team. There ain't no way that's firing on the move.

So...then they just fire the second value. All the time. I don't see the issue.

So you're going to give IG weapons teams a special rule that says they always snap fire when they move?

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Salvo doesn't work because of the models. Look at the IG heavy weapon team. There ain't no way that's firing on the move.

So...then they just fire the second value. All the time. I don't see the issue.

So you're going to give IG weapons teams a special rule that says they always snap fire when they move?

No, I am saying that if it is immersion breaking for them to be able to move and shoot a heavy bolter, then just don't move them.

Or just use shoulder mounted heavy weapons for your IG.