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What would you take for 110pts to sub into that slot then.

What are we talking about? The dev squad? Don't crimson fists get bonuses with bolters? Regardless, devastator marines are awful and should probably be left at home.

Rending does make heavy bolters moderately scary - you can already do it with Misfortune, or if you're one of those stubborn cusses that insists on trying to play Sisters (like me).

If you give a squad of Retributors four heavy bolters, a storm bolter on the Superior, a priest with the Litanies of Faith so the act doesn't fail (and another storm bolter, because Rending means you want as much dakka as you can get), you can actually do some pretty good damage. It's not setting the world on fire, but I've wrecked a few Devilfish, taken down a few Avatars of Khaine, Keepers of Secrets and suchlike with it. It's not awesome, but it can work. So yeah, Rending helps. (Then again, Bladestorm is a good chunk of why the shuricannon is good, so who does this shock?)


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Imperial Fists do get bonuses with bolters, yeah - re-roll 1s to hit.

Also, Inquisition heavy bolters (on vehicles) can be S6 with psybolt ammo. Has anyone used that to much effect? (I play Inquisition some but don't have any Chimeras or standard Land Raiders - haven't tried it myself.)

jade_angel wrote:
Rending does make heavy bolters moderately scary - you can already do it with Misfortune, or if you're one of those stubborn cusses that insists on trying to play Sisters (like me).

If you give a squad of Retributors four heavy bolters, a storm bolter on the Superior, a priest with the Litanies of Faith so the act doesn't fail (and another storm bolter, because Rending means you want as much dakka as you can get), you can actually do some pretty good damage. It's not setting the world on fire, but I've wrecked a few Devilfish, taken down a few Avatars of Khaine, Keepers of Secrets and suchlike with it. It's not awesome, but it can work. So yeah, Rending helps. (Then again, Bladestorm is a good chunk of why the shuricannon is good, so who does this shock?)

I still feel like you're still not getting enough shots to really make rending good. Maybe the range would make up? I guess it would let you hurt AV 12/13/14, so there's that.

In a world of tfc's, scatbikes and hydras the humble heavy bolter isnt doing its job. Its been left behind in the power creep of 7.5ed & theres no formation to patch it.

I'd say salvo 2/4. Also as a fully automatic, 30mm, shaped charge rocket launcher id say Sunder. Also the HBs role is one of suppression, like a base of fire/squad automatic weapon. So I'd throw in pinning too. At which poit maybe 15 points?

I just thought I'd mention that those free Razorbacks wouldn't maybe need any upgrades with some of these buffs. Moar points to take something fun instead!

You guys keep referring to scatbikes and hydras, stuff that is not in the standard SM codex. Sure you can Ally them, but then you paying for more units. I meant what would you replace the 110pt devi unit i can take. Keep in mind that i play crimson fist and have HB that are tank/monster hunters and reroll 1's to hit.

As for for devi squads in general i use them all the time as support or anti flyer/tank with the other weapons. I do agree taking grav cans with them is silly, but stack 4 of a kind in them of a weapon of your choice can make them descent to use. I use there flakk missles and las cans also.

 btgrimaldus wrote:
You guys keep referring to scatbikes and hydras, stuff that is not in the standard SM codex. Sure you can Ally them, but then you paying for more units. I meant what would you replace the 110pt devi unit i can take. Keep in mind that i play crimson fist and have HB that are tank/monster hunters and reroll 1's to hit.

As for for devi squads in general i use them all the time as support or anti flyer/tank with the other weapons. I do agree taking grav cans with them is silly, but stack 4 of a kind in them of a weapon of your choice can make them descent to use. I use there flakk missles and las cans also.

I suppose I'd keep it then. Other chapters don't have special rules that make their heavy bolters worthwhile.

I'm gonna suggest some madness, heavy d6+1 dakka dakka

Salvo 3/5 AP:4 Pinning, Range 48"

That may work.

Seems to me the best would be:
Salvo 2/3 36" S5 AP4 Pinning, 5pt upgrade in most cases

Bharring wrote:
That may work.

Seems to me the best would be:
Salvo 2/3 36" S5 AP4 Pinning, 5pt upgrade in most cases

That's still a useless weapon.

Well, we need to ensure we don't overshadow the Heavy Flamer, or move it away from its intention. While still keeping the basic weapon simple.

If you're taking a Tac squad for anti-light-infantry (Not Martel - he plays a different game), at a 5man this let's you pick between a normal Flamer (s4 ap5) for super close range, or a HB for reasonable range, better S and AP, but a few shots instead of templates. And let's the Heavy fire reasonably on the move.

If you're taking a 10man that wants to move, its 5pts for better anti-light/medium infantry.

It gives a super cheap Heavy option, that can be used in most circumstances.

How's about allowing free upgrades, take 5 bolters in a unit and one can be a heavy bolter for free.

Hell if not rending then st least shred. if you can't change the stats cause it becomes to similar to other weapons then a special rule is the only real way to improve.

 Lammikkovalas wrote:
I just thought I'd mention that those free Razorbacks wouldn't maybe need any upgrades with some of these buffs. Moar points to take something fun instead!

Well you point out a major reason the formation is only slightly broken as opposed to super broken. You still have to spend 240 points in upgrades for your free razors to get something useful. What other base heavy weapon is so bad that armies turn it down even when its 100% free?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:
I just thought I'd mention that those free Razorbacks wouldn't maybe need any upgrades with some of these buffs. Moar points to take something fun instead!

Well you point out a major reason the formation is only slightly broken as opposed to super broken. You still have to spend 240 points in upgrades for your free razors to get something useful. What other base heavy weapon is so bad that armies turn it down even when its 100% free?

I don't think there are any other heavy weapons like that. How about we just equip the Razorbacks with stolen scatterlasers?

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:
I just thought I'd mention that those free Razorbacks wouldn't maybe need any upgrades with some of these buffs. Moar points to take something fun instead!

Well you point out a major reason the formation is only slightly broken as opposed to super broken. You still have to spend 240 points in upgrades for your free razors to get something useful. What other base heavy weapon is so bad that armies turn it down even when its 100% free?

I don't think there are any other heavy weapons like that. How about we just equip the Razorbacks with stolen scatterlasers?

Hurrah!!!! In a real war, everyone would be using scatterlasers very quickly. Efficacy trumps heresy.

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:
I just thought I'd mention that those free Razorbacks wouldn't maybe need any upgrades with some of these buffs. Moar points to take something fun instead!

Well you point out a major reason the formation is only slightly broken as opposed to super broken. You still have to spend 240 points in upgrades for your free razors to get something useful. What other base heavy weapon is so bad that armies turn it down even when its 100% free?

I don't think there are any other heavy weapons like that. How about we just equip the Razorbacks with stolen scatterlasers?

The eldar have a few places where they start with shurcannons, and have the option to upgrade. Vypers, Falcons, Wave Serpents, War Walkers, etc. How often are they kept there? Vypers might be the only place.

Compare to SMs and HBs. Razors, Speeders, Attack Bikes, Stormtalons, Stormravens, etc. You might see them on TML/HB speeders, but otherwise they are ripped off and replaced ASAP.

Generally killing light troops in the open is not something most lists need help with. So when it’s the default free weapon, like the HB or SC, it gets replaced. But it’s not just HBs.

Eh, I see Wave Serpents with shuricannons fairly often - the scatter laser is less interesting when you want to get into 24" range anyway (due to the shield being 24" now, and the hull-mounted cannon), and it was mostly interesting in the previous book because of Laser Lock. Though admittedly, I don't see them much on Falcons or War Walkers (generally brightlance and either brightlance or scatter laser, respectively. Once in a great while I'll see starcannons)

That said, that's because the shuricannon is useful for taking down MCs and light tanks, too.

Oh, I almost forgot. You don't upgrade the HB on a Darkshroud to an Assault Cannon either because it's going to be always jinking.

...am I nuts? Or just a fool? Because I've never seen any major issues with the HB...but then again, I'm also not taking them frequently either, so maybe I'm unconsciously ignoring them?

..though I suppose one idea I would have is probably crazy - but what about making them rapid fire instead of heavy? Still 3 shots base (6 at 12")...but that way the squad can shoot on the move as effectively, without the HB slowing them/impeding them. Right now, taking a HB is a decision between that and other heavy weapons (and if I'm making a fire support Tac squad, I'll opt for another heavy weapon in that case) - but if I want a tactical squad on the move, then I will likely forgo the HB and heavy option entirely for the extra bolter marine. Rapid Fire may make it more plausible in a moving squad option?

 Nevelon wrote:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:
I just thought I'd mention that those free Razorbacks wouldn't maybe need any upgrades with some of these buffs. Moar points to take something fun instead!

Well you point out a major reason the formation is only slightly broken as opposed to super broken. You still have to spend 240 points in upgrades for your free razors to get something useful. What other base heavy weapon is so bad that armies turn it down even when its 100% free?

I don't think there are any other heavy weapons like that. How about we just equip the Razorbacks with stolen scatterlasers?

The eldar have a few places where they start with shurcannons, and have the option to upgrade. Vypers, Falcons, Wave Serpents, War Walkers, etc. How often are they kept there? Vypers might be the only place.

Compare to SMs and HBs. Razors, Speeders, Attack Bikes, Stormtalons, Stormravens, etc. You might see them on TML/HB speeders, but otherwise they are ripped off and replaced ASAP.

Generally killing light troops in the open is not something most lists need help with. So when it’s the default free weapon, like the HB or SC, it gets replaced. But it’s not just HBs.

I built my WS back in the old rules - I probably would be using a SC top mount if I didn't glue the SL on turret - it's only a 5 point upgrade though so I don't really feel like converting it. On vypers for sure - keep them cheap and still get 6 psudo rending shots on MC - I love my vyper. I would think falcons coming stock with a pulse laser are almost always going to take a 5 point bright lance. WW are really the only place you will never see the SC though - just because it's only 5 points for a weapon of your choice and they really make use of long range weapons well with their battle focus. I think the SC is a much better weapon than the HB - thats for sure.

Can't really think of another similar arrangement. Cept maybe with raiders and disintegraters and I feel like there is a good mix there. It just seems that most everyone would prefer almost any other heavy weapon to a HB in almost ever situation.


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 General_K wrote:
...am I nuts? Or just a fool? Because I've never seen any major issues with the HB...but then again, I'm also not taking them frequently either, so maybe I'm unconsciously ignoring them?

..though I suppose one idea I would have is probably crazy - but what about making them rapid fire instead of heavy? Still 3 shots base (6 at 12")...but that way the squad can shoot on the move as effectively, without the HB slowing them/impeding them. Right now, taking a HB is a decision between that and other heavy weapons (and if I'm making a fire support Tac squad, I'll opt for another heavy weapon in that case) - but if I want a tactical squad on the move, then I will likely forgo the HB and heavy option entirely for the extra bolter marine. Rapid Fire may make it more plausible in a moving squad option?

Or just make them assault like a big shoota.

Increasing the HB's stats in just about any way makes autocannons into niche weapons.

The exception is the Pinning idea, but conceptually that should apply to any high rate of fire weapon and I don't think we want to go there.

Assault 3, Pinning Shred. Still not perfect but makes them mobile and more likely to score wounds/hold a squad in place.

Cheaper. Make them 5 points for a MEQ to take a Heavy Bolter.

 Vankraken wrote:
Cheaper. Make them 5 points for a MEQ to take a Heavy Bolter.

Still useless.


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HoundsofDemos wrote:
Assault 3, Pinning Shred. Still not perfect but makes them mobile and more likely to score wounds/hold a squad in place.

I'd actually think about this.

I never understood why they where heavy for Marines. These are guys who can punch through a tank, they should be able to move and shot with them.

Prolly to simplify game mechanics for all the armies that use them.

Heavy is a pretty relative term, a railgun is also heavy, and that surely has more kick than a HB.