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Plasma guns are actually better than plasma cannons. But the point still stands that grav guns are quite good against units that I didn't need them to be good against. Even at ROF 3, after to-hit, wounding, cover, and FNP, they don't generate enough wounds quickly enough to save my lists from the units I REALLY need saved from.

So, what, you want a point and click MC eraser?

 eskimo wrote:
Nids have 5 MCs with 4+ btw
- helps the argument a little.

I like HBs, and from being a Nid player the HB feels fine. I have a whole Dev squad with them. I do however like the idea of salvo, but still i feel they are "okay" as they are.

2 are Flyers.
1 never saw the light of day in the first place.
And the last no longer sees the light of day since they changed WKs into Gargantuan creatures.

So....you have 2 that are only hit on 6s and can jink.
Or 2 you never see on tables at all.

The 'nids have MCs with a 4+ is the equivalent of stating that Tyranids have access to a flamer template in the form of a pyrovore.

You've mentioned something that no one will ever see because it's just so terribly bad.

The reason the Heavy bolter suffers is, well, the meta is more orientated to things it generally cannot kill - it doesn't cope well against vehicles in general and it doesn't cope well against power armour, GCs or the majority of MCs that enter the table. And as has been said - the Assault Cannon exists - it sits in the S6 sweet spot, has more shots, is available on the majority of the platforms the heavy bolter comes on (Land Speeders, Razorbacks, Land Raiders) and has rending to boot so CAN deal with armour, GCs or the like.

Now if the meta suddenly favoured footsloggers again and swarms? The Heavy Bolter might pick up....

Oh who am I kidding. The Assault Cannon will still trump.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:


The reason the Heavy bolter suffers is, well, the meta is more orientated to things it generally cannot kill - it doesn't cope well against vehicles in general and it doesn't cope well against power armour, GCs or the majority of MCs that enter the table. And as has been said - the Assault Cannon exists - it sits in the S6 sweet spot, has more shots, is available on the majority of the platforms the heavy bolter comes on (Land Speeders, Razorbacks, Land Raiders) and has rending to boot so CAN deal with armour, GCs or the like.

Now if the meta suddenly favoured footsloggers again and swarms? The Heavy Bolter might pick up....

Oh who am I kidding. The Assault Cannon will still trump.

Let's be real here: It wouldn't (like you said).

If the global (or even local) meta suddenly shifted into what is the HB's best case scenario - Horde's of Guardsmen, Guardians, Ork Boyz, and Gaunts.. heavy bolters would still be garbage. They simply cast way too much where-ever you could get them, and if your objective becomes mowing down hordes you're better off just investing in more guys with basic guns (you get 3+ guardsmen with lasguns for the cost of equipping a single HWT with a Heavy Bolter; that's better for termagaunt killin') . This is pretty universal across every army that has them; even for MEQ it's going to be better to grab that single extra marine over a HB in 9 out of 10 scenarios.

Really, someone earlier in the thread made the (imo) best suggestion for how to change it. Simply making them function similar to DoW in that they have an improved version of concussive / strike down / pinning - one which doesn't care if you're fearless and only cares if you're a monstrous creature or greater - would immediately give the weapon a much needed niche. It might not become a mainstay, but there would be a reason for bringing it. Further improvements could probably be piled on, but I feel that's the most important one.

Even if swarms became a thing again, the math for the Heavy Bolter is still pretty damn pathetic. Was the Heavy Bolter EVER good? It wasn't in 4th that's for damn sure.

Just a thought, but what if on certain platforms they were free or reduced. Heavy weapons teams and Devastator squads get heavy bolters as standard wargear, as an example.

It was good in 2nd ed.


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 Co'tor Shas wrote:
So, what, you want a point and click MC eraser?

Eldar have them. Why can't everyone else? They actually have several.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:


The reason the Heavy bolter suffers is, well, the meta is more orientated to things it generally cannot kill - it doesn't cope well against vehicles in general and it doesn't cope well against power armour, GCs or the majority of MCs that enter the table. And as has been said - the Assault Cannon exists - it sits in the S6 sweet spot, has more shots, is available on the majority of the platforms the heavy bolter comes on (Land Speeders, Razorbacks, Land Raiders) and has rending to boot so CAN deal with armour, GCs or the like.

Now if the meta suddenly favoured footsloggers again and swarms? The Heavy Bolter might pick up....

Oh who am I kidding. The Assault Cannon will still trump.

Let's be real here: It wouldn't (like you said).

If the global (or even local) meta suddenly shifted into what is the HB's best case scenario - Horde's of Guardsmen, Guardians, Ork Boyz, and Gaunts.. heavy bolters would still be garbage. They simply cast way too much where-ever you could get them, and if your objective becomes mowing down hordes you're better off just investing in more guys with basic guns (you get 3+ guardsmen with lasguns for the cost of equipping a single HWT with a Heavy Bolter; that's better for termagaunt killin') . This is pretty universal across every army that has them; even for MEQ it's going to be better to grab that single extra marine over a HB in 9 out of 10 scenarios.

Really, someone earlier in the thread made the (imo) best suggestion for how to change it. Simply making them function similar to DoW in that they have an improved version of concussive / strike down / pinning - one which doesn't care if you're fearless and only cares if you're a monstrous creature or greater - would immediately give the weapon a much needed niche. It might not become a mainstay, but there would be a reason for bringing it. Further improvements could probably be piled on, but I feel that's the most important one.

Yep. The Heavy Bolter's Problem is that the armies you find it in....better options exist with the possible exception of Sisters of Battle.

Space Marines? They have Assault Cannons and Autocannons - both will kill hordes just as much but also fair better against big monsters, heavier armour and vehicles too. (Higher strength forces more wounds, better rate of fire, available on all the same platforms too).

Chaos Space Marines? Autocannons exist again.

Imp. Guard? Multilasers and Autocannons exist there too.

In every case where you could consider a heavy bolter viable there's something better which also happens to have MORE utility. I think the only army that had this sort of problem (similar weapons competing with eachother) was Eldar with Scat-Lasers and Shuricannons which have been tweaked back and forth to try and make them equally utility.

Martel732 wrote:Because it's still not nearly enough. And the utility from a single cast of perfect timing on a squad of grav cannons gets you so much further than casting it on grav guns. Without ignore cover, you are spitting into the wind vs MCs.


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 Co'tor Shas wrote:
And how is that bad against something that anti-tank weapons struggle to wound?

There should be no units like this in the game to begin with.

MCs are fine, the issue is with GMC in typical sized games of <2000 points. Super heavies aren't even a big deal for most armies because AV is fairly weak in the current meta.

Martel732 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
So, what, you want a point and click MC eraser?

Eldar have them. Why can't everyone else? They actually have several.

You can't possibly sit there and say marines have a 'hard' time taking down MCs. At range, they have easily the second best anti MC weapon in the game that now comes on multiple platforms (grav). D weapons only win over it because they have that chance to delete the target.

And yet, they still do unless they have a centstar with perfect timing because MCs with cover are crazy good.

"MCs are fine"

There is nothing fine about the Riptide or DK. The amount of regular grav gun shots it takes to bring one of these down is pretty depressing.

Martel732 wrote:
And yet, they still do unless they have a centstar with perfect timing because MCs with cover are crazy good.

"MCs are fine"

There is nothing fine about the Riptide or DK. The amount of regular grav gun shots it takes to bring one of these down is pretty depressing.

What are you comparing this too? Lets look at something.. Assume the riptide has FNP, you then need to deal 7.5 wounds after (armor/invul saves) to take it down.

If 3++, no prescience, no amps: 40.5 shots
If 5++, no prescience, no amps: 20.25 shots

If 3++, prescience, no amps: 30.37 shots
If 5++, prescience, no amps: 15.18 shots

If 3++, prescience, amps: 27.6 shots
If 5++, prescience, amps: 13.8 shots

Yeah it gets hairy when you see the riptide get its 3++ invul.. but compare those numbers to every other weapon in this game (except D weapons and warp spiders) ... yeah grav is real good.

** EDIT ** The all powerful scatter bike needs 135 shots (assuming no rerolls hits/wounds).

Riptide is one of the units where the scatterbike becomes very inefficient. I have pointed this out on several threads. That says a lot about the Riptide, actually.

What your analysis really shows is that the Riptide is functionally immortal.

For me to take a Heavy Bolter Devastator Squad:

Salvo 3/5 S5 AP4

OR

Heavy 3, S5, AP4 Rending

Either/or.

As is, I don't bother with them.

Martel732 wrote:
Riptide is one of the units where the scatterbike becomes very inefficient. I have pointed this out on several threads. That says a lot about the Riptide, actually.

What your analysis really shows is that the Riptide is functionally immortal.

It is all about the right tool for the job.. I don't shoot small arms at MCs unless I have to (try and knock out 1 last wound). Grav is in the armory for a reason. Play smart, force him to make targeting decisions with multiple threats, when he fails his 3++ nova which he will fail statistically in a 5 turn game, blow him off the table.

Marine alpha strike is also really strong.. skyhammer other formations available. (yes tau have intercept, but that is what meat shields are for)

Or optionally get the riptide into close combat where you can run him down hilariously when he fails 1 save and fails leadership.


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Or when he is Nova charging his shield his offense is only ok... and that is with markerlights.. so take out all his support and ignore him.

Martel732 wrote:
Riptide is one of the units where the scatterbike becomes very inefficient. I have pointed this out on several threads. That says a lot about the Riptide, actually.

What your analysis really shows is that the Riptide is functionally immortal.

Notably, shuriken cannon bikes need only 51 shots (38 with Prescience/Guide) to deal 7.5 wounds. Though, that's still two maxed-out squads, nearly, and the slight problem of getting within 24", and they're still probably the second-nastiest bike unit around. (Though it's a decentish example of what they were trying to do, balancing the scatter laser vis-a-vis the shuriken cannon, though due to 36" range it didn't work quite right.)

(ETA: Ack, I screwed that up and forgot to account for the invuln save. Increase that figure by 33 or 66%, accordingly.)

I have to say, though, I wind up losing my Riptides in almost any game I use them in - often even with two. Though, they do serve as fire magnets to keep most of the rest of my army from dying, while doing so. What almost never happens, though, is losing one to a single unit's shooting in a single shooting phase.

The killer, in most cases, is the combination of forcing a few invuln/cover saves with a lot of "take 2+ saves until you fail" spam.


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Actually, the fact that it doesn't need the nova charge is why the IA is broken.

Change it to the same stats as the Ghostkeel's cyclic ion raker, maybe with 30-36" range, and it'd be reasonable.

I basically refuse to shoot at them now and take my chances punching out the rest of the Tau. Even grav is better served vs broadsides, imo.

jade_angel wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Riptide is one of the units where the scatterbike becomes very inefficient. I have pointed this out on several threads. That says a lot about the Riptide, actually.

What your analysis really shows is that the Riptide is functionally immortal.

Notably, shuriken cannon bikes need only 51 shots (38 with Prescience/Guide) to deal 7.5 wounds. Though, that's still two maxed-out squads, nearly, and the slight problem of getting within 24", and they're still probably the second-nastiest bike unit around. (Though it's a decentish example of what they were trying to do, balancing the scatter laser vis-a-vis the shuriken cannon, though due to 36" range it didn't work quite right.)

I have to say, though, I wind up losing my Riptides in almost any game I use them in - often even with two. Though, they do serve as fire magnets to keep most of the rest of my army from dying, while doing so. What almost never happens, though, is losing one to a single unit's shooting in a single shooting phase.

The killer, in most cases, is the combination of forcing a few invuln/cover saves with a lot of "take 2+ saves until you fail" spam.

And that is exactly the point of a MC, atleast in my opinion. They are not meant to be wiped off the field by one unit. They are meant to take multiple units shooting attacks or multiple turns to take out. Your shurikan example was excellent. Fielding that is not difficult or expensive for Eldar.

My worst riptide loss was against my buddies Mechanicus/Skittari. Where after his alpha strike and some strong rolls I lost 3 riptides top of turn 1. Brutal uphill game from there.

Other lists can't field those bikes, though.

I can't imagine three Riptides dying in one turn. I guess the gulf between BA and Skitarri is that huge.

" They are not meant to be wiped off the field by one unit."

Then they should cost more, then. A lot of lists can't afford to have them get off many IA shots.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:


Oh who am I kidding. The Assault Cannon will still trump.

What's your point? It's also a more expensive weapon not available on as many units.

Oh, and it has shorter range which really matters on things like Razorbacks. I'd say it matters on Devastators but it's not available on them to begin with so whatever.

We don't need to turn the gun into something monstrous to make it viable. I'm in favor of a buff, but only a slight one. Salve 3/5 to make it a poor man's Grav Cannon works. It allows them to be mobile, which helps in a tactical team inside of a Rhino.

 SRSFACE wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:


Oh who am I kidding. The Assault Cannon will still trump.

What's your point? It's also a more expensive weapon not available on as many units.

Oh, and it has shorter range which really matters on things like Razorbacks. I'd say it matters on Devastators but it's not available on them to begin with so whatever.

We don't need to turn the gun into something monstrous to make it viable. I'm in favor of a buff, but only a slight one. Salve 3/5 to make it a poor man's Grav Cannon works. It allows them to be mobile, which helps in a tactical team inside of a Rhino.

You sure about that? Most people seem to favor the monstrous things from their codices.

Martel732 wrote:
Other lists can't field those bikes, though.

I can't imagine three Riptides dying in one turn. I guess the gulf between BA and Skitarri is that huge.

BS7 with assault 3 plasma guns, Reroll hits with Grav destroyers.. brutal alpha strike in the current meta with WKs and the works. Stronger then BA for sure.. caveat that with "if you don't ally in space marines that can take these options and formations"

Martel732 wrote:

" They are not meant to be wiped off the field by one unit."

Then they should cost more, then. A lot of lists can't afford to have them get off many IA shots.

Toss this up in another thread for debate, but compared to the WK i think the riptide is about where it should be in terms of cost. Fully kitted it costs more then a squad of grav cents.. which can potentially take the riptide down in one round of shooting by themselves.. It really comes down to matchups and playing tactically in game.

Yes, but the WK should cost ~100 pts more at least. Both the Riptide and WK should pay more for their insane durability.

It's relevant to the heavy bolter, because the heavy bolter at least has a prayer of being useful against a demon prince or Tyranid MC. So the elite MCs existing makes the heavy bolter less desirable.

 SRSFACE wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:


Oh who am I kidding. The Assault Cannon will still trump.

What's your point? It's also a more expensive weapon not available on as many units.

Oh, and it has shorter range which really matters on things like Razorbacks. I'd say it matters on Devastators but it's not available on them to begin with so whatever.

We don't need to turn the gun into something monstrous to make it viable. I'm in favor of a buff, but only a slight one. Salve 3/5 to make it a poor man's Grav Cannon works. It allows them to be mobile, which helps in a tactical team inside of a Rhino.

The Assault Cannon is pretty much available on the units where it matters - and the gun will never see viable play until it becomes somewhat competitive either in the form of debuffing/buffing special rules (i.e. old Scat-Lasers applying twin-linking) or unless it becomes as potentially monstrous as its rivals (Assault Cannons or Autocannons).

Until it gets buffed it's an overpointed dud. Pyrovore theory man, pyrovore theory.

Feh. The assault cannon is available mostly on crappy platforms. And it's very hard to mass up.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:


The Assault Cannon is pretty much available on the units where it matters - and the gun will never see viable play until it becomes somewhat competitive either in the form of debuffing/buffing special rules (i.e. old Scat-Lasers applying twin-linking) or unless it becomes as potentially monstrous as its rivals (Assault Cannons or Autocannons).

Until it gets buffed it's an overpointed dud. Pyrovore theory man, pyrovore theory.

Is there ever a time you'd not take an assault cannon over a heavy bolter, points allowing, on the units that can take it?

You're comparing apples to oranges, is my point. The only things where there's going to be competition between the two guns is Land Speeders and Razorbacks. I think some Land Raider variants, too? And, on all of those platforms, the heavy bolters are free, so you're comparing a free gun to an upgrade, and being like "WELL THE UPGRADE IS SO MUCH BETTER!" Well, duh. That's why it's an upgrade. That's why it costs points to swap them out.

If Heavy Bolters were available on terminators, or Assault Cannons were available on tactical marines or devastators, you might have a point trying to compare them.

Martel732 wrote:
Feh. The assault cannon is available mostly on crappy platforms. And it's very hard to mass up.

Storm talons man. Twin Assault and Skyhammers for the win!

My personal opinion to the Heavy Bolter is that the weapon want to be a mix of 2 different ones without a special role in the game.

So there should be classic Heavy Bolt Gun as high rate of fire upgrade from a standard Bolt Gun: 36", S4, AP5, Heavy 6.

The other weapon should be a Bolt Cannon: 36" S6, AP4, Heavy 3.

And you can keep the Vulcan/Mega/Gatling Bolt Cannon: 36" S6, DS4, Heavy 6, Rending
And Vulcan/Mega/Gatling Bolt Gun: 36", S4, AP5, Heavy 12, Rending

 kodos wrote:
My personal opinion to the Heavy Bolter is that the weapon want to be a mix of 2 different ones without a special role in the game.

So there should be classic Heavy Bolt Gun as high rate of fire upgrade from a standard Bolt Gun: 36", S4, AP5, Heavy 6.

The other weapon should be a Bolt Cannon: 36" S6, AP4, Heavy 3.

And you can keep the Vulcan/Mega/Gatling Bolt Cannon: 36" S6, DS4, Heavy 6, Rending
And Vulcan/Mega/Gatling Bolt Gun: 36", S4, AP5, Heavy 12, Rending

I actually like this.

Actually, that's not bad, though for the HBG, I'd vote Salvo 4/6 over Heavy 6, simply because mobility matters. A tactical squad probably still wouldn't want the Heavy version because they generally want to move, not camp and shoot (which is why you don't see heavy weapons on tac squads all that often anyway, and the other reason why when you do, the grav cannon is a no-brainer despite its price).

jade_angel wrote:
Actually, that's not bad, though for the HBG, I'd vote Salvo 4/6 over Heavy 6, simply because mobility matters. A tactical squad probably still wouldn't want the Heavy version because they generally want to move, not camp and shoot (which is why you don't see heavy weapons on tac squads all that often anyway, and the other reason why when you do, the grav cannon is a no-brainer despite its price).

Also like this. Now we are moving in the right direction!

I vote to drop it down to 30" though. 15" when moving is still an effective 21" range.. but it still gives penalty for not "setting up your heavier weapon" so to speak.