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What is an artist? Someone who makes something from nothing like a drawing/painting/sculpting? To be an artists to you need to make something out of nothing? Does it have to be an original drawing? If so, does this make an inker in comics (or comics of old) artists as well since they are just copying someone else's work. Does it have to be an original sculpt done by their own hands? So a mini would be a cheat then?

What about paint by numbers? People can make beautiful paintings from paint by numbers. Are they artists?

The way I see it, Minis are paint by numbers. We assemble them, with instructions just like paint by numbers and then paint them. We are painting something already made.

While some people do this beautifully are they artists? Can they do this without a mini? Can they make original drawings/sculpts?


Just curious, what makes an artist.

There will never be a hard line as to what is art, or what is an artist. Discussing so is a topic far far beyond the reach of these forums.

However, while miniatures, like certain painting methods, can be paint by numbers, you can see on these same forums examples of unequivocal artistry.

People like Jen Haley, aka Paintrix, who paint miniatures better than most artists could paint on canvas or digitally are another example.

I think a better discussion isn't to ask what is or isn't, but rather to just post your favorite miniature paint jobs and painters to show examples of high levels of artistic skill being applied to miniatures.

And let's not forget that the miniature itself can be a work of art on its own, to which a good painter can bring that out.

 Vertrucio wrote:
T
People like Jen Haley, aka Paintrix, who paint miniatures better than most artists could paint on canvas or digitally are another example.

But can Paintrix also paint on a canvas? How about the artists who paint on a canvas. What can they do with miniatures?

I guess at the end of the day, yes it's all artwork. I am an artists. But a very very poor artist. I don't consider it a trade but just a hobby I like to do.

Art is anything created by a person that elicits a reaction, positive or negative, from the viewer. Duchamp's 'Urinal' proved that, if it needed proving.

We may not consider ourselves artists, but I think what we do is an art form.

Certainly the things some people can do with model kits and miniature figures are mindblowing, and, were they to be shown in a gallery, not out of place.

I seem to remember a pair of brothers (whose names I have forgotten, but they bought and then painted on genuine Goya charcoal sketches, thus either ruining them forever or being typical artists, depending) making a diorama about the Holocaust using 1/35th Tamiya figures. I thought the paintjobs were rather sloppy and rushed, myself...

No, but that probably has more to do with how I define artist than my own views. I think mini painting can be a very valid form of expression, but I'm not expressing myself or creating a conceptual piece. I'm engaged in a craft, not art. I think there's a significant difference, because craft allows for technique and quality and even personal style, but art is something a bit... more, to me.

Was painting taught in art class? If yes, you're an artist. If not, it was still taught in my art class. So you're an artist.

I'd say yes. That's the goal, anyway. I choose techniques, consider principles of art, color theory, etc. I try my best to create artistically pleasing pieces.

Do I get paid for it? Not at all. Am I good at it? Not very. But that's not the point.

Yes.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Question for the day: do you consider yourself an artist?

Yes, but I pronounce it "Arteest!"

I'm a decent painter with 16 years of experience at it. I have not been formally trained, nor do I sell my minis, so I would never call myself a "Professional Painter". However, I'm still an artist.

I am using this definition:

art·ist
noun
a person who produces paintings or drawings as a profession or hobby.

I have creative skills many other people do not.
I think anyone able to take a "vision" in their head and expressing it in a physical form is an artist.
There are many debates if the novelty of the vision or the proficiency of execution warrants the title more.

Gives a mixed feeling when the wife invites "the girls over" and then I am painting their nails for them with little patterns and making stencils.
Extra decals were a hit...

A tiny Legolas diorama I made stays on my wife's work desk and always gets positive comments and asked where she bought it.

I have been "hired" many times usually for trade on assembly or painting of models.

I consider myself still learning, many people are better than me but I have been building models steadily since I was 10 years old so have learned a few things.

I guess it is hard when it is not my primary job and is something I do for fun.
It is hard to be so serious of using a "title" when it is something you are "fooling around" with even if it has been for decades.

I think 'Artist' is such a subjective word, that it's hard to pin it down to a definition.

In my opinion, I am not an artist as I cannot draw/paint from nothing. Give me a pre-rendered image and I'll colour it in, but ask me to draw it from scratch and I'll struggle.

I would like to say I am creative and can model/build things to a reasonable standard, but in the traditional sense of the word (to me), I am not an artist.

P.S. Although it may sound like it, I am not saying that model paint is a 3d version of a colouring book.

Well I guess seeing some of the Age of Sigmar art and if they can be considered artists who made some of the questionable art, then I can be considered one as well.

 D4V1D0 wrote:
P.S. Although it may sound like it, I am not saying that model paint is a 3d version of a colouring book.

I think I found myself saying that models are a form of "paint by numbers" because edges or recesses give you clues on how light or dark a colour to use.

I would not be that critical of your skills, you can find worlds of creativity in the execution of the art as much as the coming up with the original "vision" out of nothing.
I too am somewhat in awe when people make something out of "nothing", my main skill is taking an idea and running with it or "improving" it.

This can be tricky because while I do consider myself and others in the hobby to be artists, sometimes people don't understand that it doesn't always translate to other mediums. You may have an understanding of painting with acrylics but when doing something like makeup, there are nuances that you simply cannot know until you do it enough times. I get this all the time when someone sees one of my models and says "Oh man that's cool, can you paint a cool mural on my wall at home?" With enough practice, yes, but I know your wall is going to look like crap when i'm done with it so i'd rather not.

With that - This hobby has helped me most notably in understanding colors and shading. I've been able to use this knowledge with basic things like color pencils or even putting together wicked sweet power points together at work.

I would say yes to be an artist. Now, a GOOD artist is a whole other matter entirely.

I'll go with what my old art teachers would have said about this.

Painting miniatures may involve artistic processes and elements, but it isn't creating art since the miniature isn't your own creative work. If you sculpted the mini (and it's not a copy of someone else's work), then it's art.

Now, if you heavily converted it...that's getting into a grey area, since you're creating something original but still appropriating the work of others. If it's heavily converted and the conversion includes some original sculpting, I'd say it's a definite maybe. Otherwise, no, painting miniatures isn't creating art and doesn't make you an artist.

 gorgon wrote:
I'll go with what my old art teachers would have said about this.

Painting miniatures may involve artistic processes and elements, but it isn't creating art since the miniature isn't your own creative work. If you sculpted the mini (and it's not a copy of someone else's work), then it's art.

Now, if you heavily converted it...that's getting into a grey area, since you're creating something original but still appropriating the work of others. If it's heavily converted and the conversion includes some original sculpting, I'd say it's a definite maybe. Otherwise, no, painting miniatures isn't creating art and doesn't make you an artist.

Hm, the teacher sounds a little bit elitist too me. If I create a painting on a ready made canvas, then does it not count as my own work because I didn't create the canvas from scratch? A mini is just a blank canvas after all.

I've been making my living at painting and modelling minis for about 7 years now, so by default I just got in the habit of saying I'm an artist from lack of a better answer when people ask what I do.

As to whether I consider myself one... depends on my mood and how I feel about the last thing I painted, really. I find it hard to look at 50 identical space marines painted to a quick standard as a work of art, but some of the more complex and creative things I've done and/or seen others do... well i guess to my mind a work of art is something you can enjoy just be looking at it, and well done miniatures can certainly fit that bill.

I'd say sometimes, when I'm sculpting for converions, or painting when inspired

but other times not when i'm just painting by numbers just to get stuff finished, or doing yet another member of an identikit squad

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
I'll go with what my old art teachers would have said about this.

Painting miniatures may involve artistic processes and elements, but it isn't creating art since the miniature isn't your own creative work. If you sculpted the mini (and it's not a copy of someone else's work), then it's art.

Now, if you heavily converted it...that's getting into a grey area, since you're creating something original but still appropriating the work of others. If it's heavily converted and the conversion includes some original sculpting, I'd say it's a definite maybe. Otherwise, no, painting miniatures isn't creating art and doesn't make you an artist.

Hm, the teacher sounds a little bit elitist too me. If I create a painting on a ready made canvas, then does it not count as my own work because I didn't create the canvas from scratch? A mini is just a blank canvas after all.

What would your art teacher say about the more advanced techniques, such as freehand art on the side of the Land Raider (the Deathwing Land Raider with The Creation of Adam on the side springs to mind). Even conversions aren't that much of a grey area, no more than a sculptre made of many seperate statues is. Even down to individuals, you are simply given a load of parts, the pose and position of the mini is chosen by you to create an image and convey a moment in time, such as a Marine in the midst of running. For artists who build small, desktop statues from nuts and bolts and pipes, would you deny their artist status because the nuts and bolts come pre-made and they simply assemble?

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
I'll go with what my old art teachers would have said about this.

Painting miniatures may involve artistic processes and elements, but it isn't creating art since the miniature isn't your own creative work. If you sculpted the mini (and it's not a copy of someone else's work), then it's art.

Now, if you heavily converted it...that's getting into a grey area, since you're creating something original but still appropriating the work of others. If it's heavily converted and the conversion includes some original sculpting, I'd say it's a definite maybe. Otherwise, no, painting miniatures isn't creating art and doesn't make you an artist.

Hm, the teacher sounds a little bit elitist too me. If I create a painting on a ready made canvas, then does it not count as my own work because I didn't create the canvas from scratch? A mini is just a blank canvas after all.

No, that's not at all what I'm talking about and that should be completely obvious to anyone using their brain. An unpainted miniature is the original creative work of an artist while a plain canvas (edit: or nuts and bolts, or some other random object) is not.

 gorgon wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
I'll go with what my old art teachers would have said about this.

Painting miniatures may involve artistic processes and elements, but it isn't creating art since the miniature isn't your own creative work. If you sculpted the mini (and it's not a copy of someone else's work), then it's art.

Now, if you heavily converted it...that's getting into a grey area, since you're creating something original but still appropriating the work of others. If it's heavily converted and the conversion includes some original sculpting, I'd say it's a definite maybe. Otherwise, no, painting miniatures isn't creating art and doesn't make you an artist.

Hm, the teacher sounds a little bit elitist too me. If I create a painting on a ready made canvas, then does it not count as my own work because I didn't create the canvas from scratch? A mini is just a blank canvas after all.

No, that's not at all what I'm talking about and that should be completely obvious to anyone using their brain. An unpainted miniature is the original creative work of an artist while a plain canvas (edit: or nuts and bolts, or some other random object) is not.

Well then what about graffiti art? Its painted on the side of a building, an original creative work of an architect, is the graffiti therefore not art?

Its just an elitist attitude to say this is art and this is not because of the canvas used, canvas being a metaphorical one in this situation. Some of the freehand you see, you cannot for one moment deign to say the creators are not artists, surely?
Edit; this was the Land Raider I refer to. Tell me its not art. He recreated Michaelango's masterpiece to 1:6000 scale

 gorgon wrote:
I'll go with what my old art teachers would have said about this.

Painting miniatures may involve artistic processes and elements, but it isn't creating art since the miniature isn't your own creative work. If you sculpted the mini (and it's not a copy of someone else's work), then it's art.

Now, if you heavily converted it...that's getting into a grey area, since you're creating something original but still appropriating the work of others. If it's heavily converted and the conversion includes some original sculpting, I'd say it's a definite maybe. Otherwise, no, painting miniatures isn't creating art and doesn't make you an artist.

I disagree with you and your teacher 100% if you feel this wasn't painted by an artist.

 gorgon wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
I'll go with what my old art teachers would have said about this.

Painting miniatures may involve artistic processes and elements, but it isn't creating art since the miniature isn't your own creative work. If you sculpted the mini (and it's not a copy of someone else's work), then it's art.

Now, if you heavily converted it...that's getting into a grey area, since you're creating something original but still appropriating the work of others. If it's heavily converted and the conversion includes some original sculpting, I'd say it's a definite maybe. Otherwise, no, painting miniatures isn't creating art and doesn't make you an artist.

Hm, the teacher sounds a little bit elitist too me. If I create a painting on a ready made canvas, then does it not count as my own work because I didn't create the canvas from scratch? A mini is just a blank canvas after all.

No, that's not at all what I'm talking about and that should be completely obvious to anyone using their brain. An unpainted miniature is the original creative work of an artist while a plain canvas (edit: or nuts and bolts, or some other random object) is not.

That's just a bit contradictory to what you wrote originally though. as well as somewhat rude. In your original post, (as says above) "it isn't creating art since the miniature isn't your own creative work". and in your reply, "an unpainted miniature is the original creative work of the artist". So is it contradictory, or am i just reading it incorrectly?

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
I'll go with what my old art teachers would have said about this.

Painting miniatures may involve artistic processes and elements, but it isn't creating art since the miniature isn't your own creative work. If you sculpted the mini (and it's not a copy of someone else's work), then it's art.

Now, if you heavily converted it...that's getting into a grey area, since you're creating something original but still appropriating the work of others. If it's heavily converted and the conversion includes some original sculpting, I'd say it's a definite maybe. Otherwise, no, painting miniatures isn't creating art and doesn't make you an artist.

Hm, the teacher sounds a little bit elitist too me. If I create a painting on a ready made canvas, then does it not count as my own work because I didn't create the canvas from scratch? A mini is just a blank canvas after all.

No, that's not at all what I'm talking about and that should be completely obvious to anyone using their brain. An unpainted miniature is the original creative work of an artist while a plain canvas (edit: or nuts and bolts, or some other random object) is not.

That's just a bit contradictory to what you wrote originally though. as well as somewhat rude. In your original post, (as says above) "it isn't creating art since the miniature isn't your own creative work". and in your reply, "an unpainted miniature is the original creative work of the artist". So is it contradictory, or am i just reading it incorrectly?

To further that, if what makes it unartistic is the fact it's painted on another artist's vision, is the Mona Lisa not art? Is any painting that is drawn from reality art? It's all an artist's representation of something that already exists. How is delicately shading and layering a miniature not the same? Does the act of painting it on a 3D object rather than a flat canvas turn something from art to hollow mimicry? Worth considering

I consider myself a craftsman I'm not pretentious enough to be an artist........

 kronk wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
I'll go with what my old art teachers would have said about this.

Painting miniatures may involve artistic processes and elements, but it isn't creating art since the miniature isn't your own creative work. If you sculpted the mini (and it's not a copy of someone else's work), then it's art.

Now, if you heavily converted it...that's getting into a grey area, since you're creating something original but still appropriating the work of others. If it's heavily converted and the conversion includes some original sculpting, I'd say it's a definite maybe. Otherwise, no, painting miniatures isn't creating art and doesn't make you an artist.

I disagree with you and your teacher 100% if you feel this wasn't painted by an artist.

Holy crap, that's fantastic work!

There's the pretentious meaning behind art (I invoke emotion and desire, therefore I art) and then there's the practical meaning (I made this). My figures fall into the latter category. It may not be high art, but I display my painted miniatures, get admiring comments, and take pride in my work - like I'm sure every miniature painter does. It takes skill and creativity, and works towards an pleasing aesthetic - what I make is art, so I guess that makes me an artist. Since I also hate unpainted figures on barren tables, it also makes me a pretentious artist.

I think, for me, it boils down to whether or not the "artist" has a purpose beyond the practical-in this case the practical application of paint to play a game or make some money. In other words, are they trying to express an idea, or convey an emotion, make a point, or make a statement? If so it is art. If the goal is just to slap some paint on a miniature, be it for gaming purposes or to sell, no matter how well applied, it isn't really "Art". To me, the goal of art is expression. As a result, even the most horribly painted miniature with craft store goop non diluted and with glue coming out of every seam can be art. On the other hand, the most technically talented, smoothly transitioned, subtly lit mini might not be, though I would think most people who take that much time with it will inevitably be doing so beyond practical purposes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sqorgar wrote:
There's the pretentious meaning behind art (I invoke emotion and desire, therefore I art) and then there's the practical meaning (I made this). My figures fall into the latter category. It may not be high art, but I display my painted miniatures, get admiring comments, and take pride in my work - like I'm sure every miniature painter does. It takes skill and creativity, and works towards an pleasing aesthetic - what I make is art, so I guess that makes me an artist. Since I also hate unpainted figures on barren tables, it also makes me a pretentious artist.

See, to me, just going by that definition, you are a craftsman. Possibly an extremely talented one. And I don't see why emotion has to have a pretentious connotation. All humans have emotions. All humans create art in some way.

I think the words "art" and "artist" is thrown around too much in general when it comes to creative work - a term I much prefer to go by. Calling myself an "artist" sounds pretentious and is a disservice to people who have artistic merit far beyond mine, much like when YouTubers call their work "art". They aren't wrong really, but it's the connotations around the word itself that makes it sound like they're full of themselves compared to people who create canvas works from scratch.

I don't consider myself an artist, although technically I am one; I paint models and I do a fairly good job of it. I consider myself to have creative talent in that regard, as painting has combined with my photographic memory so much so that I have almost all the Citadel paint system memorised in terms of what colours they produce on models, and which are suited to a specific model and colour scheme. In the outside world this has translated into my ability to colour match and create colour schemes for various things very well (much to the confusion and inquisitive looks of my female friends ). Is that really worthy of a prestigious title such as "artist"? I don't think so myself. That, and I have no concept of scale in my head, so I can't really create art outside of painting models.

G.A