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There's the issue of making an 1-2" mini visibly female that's going to create exaggerated features. There's also an argument that the armor design is visibly feminized because the Ecclisiarchy is giving the flying finger to the Decree Passive. Plus, back in 2nd-3rd ed days, there was a lot of tongue-in-cheek to everything GW did. So, we're left with a somewhat problematic legacy design.
Going forward, GW could canonize the finger-to-the-Decree, and if they updated the range, they could make the minis a tad bigger while scaling down the size of the heads, like they did with bare SM heads. Remember the 3rd ed plastic bare heads, that were as big as the helmeted heads? These days, the helmet free heads are smaller.
Ashiraya wrote: I dunno, man. Appeals to tradition have never been very convincing to me. Dark Eldar and Necrons were completely overhauled and I'd say they were better off for it.
I would argue that that Necron and Dark Eldar updates still kept those armies general aesthetic in tact, even after the overhaul.
Ashiraya wrote: I dunno, man. Appeals to tradition have never been very convincing to me. Dark Eldar and Necrons were completely overhauled and I'd say they were better off for it.
I would argue that that Necron and Dark Eldar updates still kept those armies general aesthetic in tact, even after the overhaul.
I have read the Sisters of Battle series, but haven't listened to the audio drama yet (Red and Black?). I usually don't like voice novels.
Red & Black is interesting enough and fairly well written (if short). My main gripe is the excessively dense yorkshire accent one of the Sisters (the heavy flamer dominion - I want to say Iolanthe?) is sporting.
I don't really feel the need for new units. That is, I'm fine with the sororitas not having terminator analogues. I don't want them to have a giant stompy mech (although I wouldn't be averse to the penitent engine being a bit more effective).
Doing a 'proper' version of the Aquila and Repressor (maybe with some weapon variations) would probably do fine.
At the same time, new models would be great. I'm a fan of keeping or improving the current look; they are females in armour - that doesn't require stereotypical sci-fi female armour. Something like the more dynamic poses - the 'running figure' images are clearly from a single source picture and the sacred rose trooper looks seriously bad-ass.
And whilst their weapons and armour are suitably ritualised, there is scope for differentiating units more, without dramatically changing their appearance.
Celestians and heroines, for example, could be given artificer, rather than just power, armour. The whole 'helmets are part of a veteran's regalia' suggests armour is reworked as part of your promotion, and a 2+ save would help make celestians much scarier in their close quarter role.
Adding a bolter, bolt pistol, chainsword combo to a celestian, again, ups their combat potential. One thing I do like with sororitas veterans is that they subtly invert the generic space marine veterans - seraphim (who look like vanguard) are the close-range firefighters, whilst celestians (who look like sternguard) are the melee unit.
Write a story about the six sisters who were counseled in the golden throne, most of whom where killed by mysterious assassins.
Whilst I'd love to see a Reign Of Blood series, this is one of those 'behind the stage curtain' moments, like 'what happened to the II and XI legions?' that books should hint at but never show, in my mind.
The soroitas, even more than the marines, need to keep some things nebulous, because they are ultimately driven by myths and faith, and because keeping their 'miracles' and 'acts of faith' juuuuust this side of "wait, was that physically possible?" helps keep them as 'devout elite warriors' not 'sparkly walking miracle dispensers' - a line rules for Adepta Sororitas characters in the RPG books have trouble walking.
At the same time, a Reign Of Blood series is far from impossible.
In addition to the Horus Heresy series, the Beast Arises/Beheading series only has 3 more books to go, and they've done a Macharian Crusades trilogy, so the Reign Of Blood is probably the next obvious big event in Imperial history.
Warwick, Warwickshire, England, UK, NW Europe, Sol-3, Western Spiral Arm, Milky Way
Artificer armour for Canonesses and Preceptors, sure, but not for Celestians (except maybe Veteran Celestian Sister Superiors).
Access to stuff like chainswords for all, or Sarissas giving +1A in close combat, would be nice.
More plasma? Maybe some plasma guns and a sprinkling of plasma pistols.
What else - Frateris Militia and Redemptionists, as well as Arbites, to add in some variety in both armour save (5+, 6+ FnP, 4+, respectively) and miniature appearance.
Plastic Penitent Engines.
And while we're wishlisting, some new Inquisitors and retinue models. Also cherubim on all the sprues - at least one a box - so that you can give them a properly funky Ecclesiarchy feel.
Gen.Steiner wrote: Artificer armour for Canonesses and Preceptors, sure, but not for Celestians (except maybe Veteran Celestian Sister Superiors).
Access to stuff like chainswords for all, or Sarissas giving +1A in close combat, would be nice.
More plasma? Maybe some plasma guns and a sprinkling of plasma pistols.
What else - Frateris Militia and Redemptionists, as well as Arbites, to add in some variety in both armour save (5+, 6+ FnP, 4+, respectively) and miniature appearance.
Plastic Penitent Engines.
And while we're wishlisting, some new Inquisitors and retinue models. Also cherubim on all the sprues - at least one a box - so that you can give them a properly funky Ecclesiarchy feel.
I don't think we should get inquisitors with sisters next time . Or plasma guns maybe a volkite gun as I think that's flamey??
Or more chain bayonets.....that could be a thing a duel boltgun chainsword thingy
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/14 13:51:40
Grand.Master.Raziel wrote: There's the issue of making an 1-2" mini visibly female that's going to create exaggerated features. There's also an argument that the armor design is visibly feminized because the Ecclisiarchy is giving the flying finger to the Decree Passive. Plus, back in 2nd-3rd ed days, there was a lot of tongue-in-cheek to everything GW did. So, we're left with a somewhat problematic legacy design.
Going forward, GW could canonize the finger-to-the-Decree, and if they updated the range, they could make the minis a tad bigger while scaling down the size of the heads, like they did with bare SM heads. Remember the 3rd ed plastic bare heads, that were as big as the helmeted heads? These days, the helmet free heads are smaller.
I kinda like that idea: the exaggerated hourglass and boob-plate is that way because the armor is shaped like that, regardless of what the body underneath looks like. After all, nothing says that it actually is skin-tight. In fact, it's power armor. Nobody else in the universe has skin-tight power armor, why would the Sisters? (Even the Eldar who have heavier armor generally don't have skintight catsuits - the 3+ save guys are a little bulkier and definitely wearing suits of metal plates with their own shape.)
Did we really need another SoB thread? The other one wasn't enough? I know the other one/s are technically about sisters models, but really it was being used to discuss all the same things that get discussed in every other SoB thread.
I would hope GW realizes by now that the target audience for their fiction isn't teenagers. But they still play this odd double game with the fluff where everything is GRIMDARK...but in a non-offensive PG-rated way.
I find Space Marine fiction almost unbearable to read. Not that it's particularly easy for anybody to write good fiction based around a bunch of identical supermen that all think and act the same and say "brother" more than Hulk Hogan. IG are at least normal humans, but I find Sisters to be by far the most interesting human faction.
They really should have a bigger role in the fluff considering their role in the Ecclesiarchy as heresy police for the Imperium. Where isn't there heresy or the potential for heresy in the Imperium?
That should also be better reflected in their rules (which desperately need an update). I'm fine with the concept of Sisters being humans in power armor (3S, 3T), but they need more than Acts of Faith to make them go as a competitive army.
I'd give them Order Tactics similar to Chapter Tactics for SM. That could be further expanded by bolting on auxiliary tactics from Orders Hospitaller, Famulous, or Dialogous. Even very simple rules based on those options would open up 18 unique build and play styles (6 Militant Orders times 3 Non-Militant options).
Overall I think that as the Ecclesiarchy, Sisters play style should come from the meta rather than from stat lines. For example, it would make sense for some of their units to have some Infiltrating or Outflanking ability as if they were investigating heresy before their attack. Maybe things like the ability to move an opponent's objective or reroll their warlord trait. Buffing them that way would fit the fluff and keep them from just being female Marines.
Boob armor is literally the least relevant part of this discussion.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Did we really need another SoB thread? The other one wasn't enough? I know the other one/s are technically about sisters models, but really it was being used to discuss all the same things that get discussed in every other SoB thread.
How many Marine related threads are there.........quite a bit of this was about the Op asking specific questions and appropriate responses.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Did we really need another SoB thread? The other one wasn't enough? I know the other one/s are technically about sisters models, but really it was being used to discuss all the same things that get discussed in every other SoB thread.
How many Marine related threads are there.........quite a bit of this was about the Op asking specific questions and appropriate responses.
some people have a dislike for another imperial army or female space marines, which is a point i suppose. however until GW finally pull the plug , your going to have to accept that Sisters threads will appear, or ask mods to ban them.
Mr Morden wrote: How many Marine related threads are there.........quite a bit of this was about the Op asking specific questions and appropriate responses.
Well Marines actually have content, Sisters threads are 90% the same stuff over and over. Like most of the posts in this thread are related to Sisters aesthetic, kind of like most of the other Sister's threads I linked to.
I'm kinda new to 40k but aren't sisters like inquisition or knights where there only supposed to ally with imperial guard or space marines? (Pls forgive my utter noobishness)
Dwarfmorf101 wrote: I'm kinda new to 40k but aren't sisters like inquisition or knights where there only supposed to ally with imperial guard or space marines? (Pls forgive my utter noobishness)
They've been through a few incarnations. They came out in the mid-90s as the last codex before the big change from 2nd edition to 3rd. And they were explicitly meant to be an ally army with no real long range weapons or heavy hand to hand units.
Then they got a few mini lists and finally a real codex in 2004, but they were merged with the Inquisition. They got a few stand alone units in there and an all-sisters army was viable.
Then they were demerged and got a stand along codex, but it was digital only with no new models.
They've been stagnant so long, with models going OOP and no plastic or even fine cast coming out most people assume they're dead and GW just won't say so because they are nice models and there'd be a backlash.
If they're ever developed again anything can happen. GW has no issues with just creating stuff out of thin air, so if they want to say there's a unit called the Sisters of Holy Light who all carry lascannons who's to say they're wrong.
They're a neat concept but other than an FFGRPG book a few years back nothing's been done with them.
Dwarfmorf101 wrote: I'm kinda new to 40k but aren't sisters like inquisition or knights where there only supposed to ally with imperial guard or space marines? (Pls forgive my utter noobishness)
Sort of? They're humans, and as such only work well alongside other humans. I'm not sure I understand the question?
Dwarfmorf101 wrote: I'm kinda new to 40k but aren't sisters like inquisition or knights where there only supposed to ally with imperial guard or space marines? (Pls forgive my utter noobishness)
They've been through a few incarnations. They came out in the mid-90s as the last codex before the big change from 2nd edition to 3rd. And they were explicitly meant to be an ally army with no real long range weapons or heavy hand to hand units.
Then they got a few mini lists and finally a real codex in 2004, but they were merged with the Inquisition. They got a few stand alone units in there and an all-sisters army was viable.
Then they were demerged and got a stand along codex, but it was digital only with no new models.
They've been stagnant so long, with models going OOP and no plastic or even fine cast coming out most people assume they're dead and GW just won't say so because they are nice models and there'd be a backlash.
If they're ever developed again anything can happen. GW has no issues with just creating stuff out of thin air, so if they want to say there's a unit called the Sisters of Holy Light who all carry lascannons who's to say they're wrong.
They're a neat concept but other than an FFGRPG book a few years back nothing's been done with them.
So...
How about them Squats and Arbites huh?
Well Demiurg are supposedly rumoured to appear....
The FFG book .... I din hear about that.
Well I'd love to have a discussion about minor orders and colours...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/14 17:58:12
Dwarfmorf101 wrote: I'm kinda new to 40k but aren't sisters like inquisition or knights where there only supposed to ally with imperial guard or space marines? (Pls forgive my utter noobishness)
Sort of? Unlike Knights or Inquisition they are actually able to field a full force organization chart and don't need to rely on special rules exempting them from needing troops on the ground, and so on. They are cripplingly undercapable of dealing with air units though, though there are some ways around that without necessarily needing to ally.
Fluf-wise they make more sense fighting allied with another force or in a defensive capacity if they're fighting alone... At least until GW releases an 'imperial civilians not worshipping in quite the right way' supplement (complete with codex and plastics to add insult to injury.)
Then they were demerged and got a stand along codex, but it was digital only with no new models.
Before the digital codex there was a two-part white dwarf exclusive codex that reworked the act of faith system to severely reduce its effectiveness in larger armies. That was actually probably the lowest point for Sisters, as GW refused to offer up those rules digitally, leaving players with no legitimate way to get them after the White Dwarf issues sold out.
The current situation is actually preferable, as the Codex is available and doesn't actively punish you for taking a large sisters force instead of allying a few squads with your precious space marines. Pretty much every unit listed therein is buildable, even if it requires you to either buy the kit on another army's page or find it hidden and unadvertised (the Immolator parts are included with the Exorcist kit, happy spending)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/14 18:01:19
Dwarfmorf101 wrote: I'm kinda new to 40k but aren't sisters like inquisition or knights where there only supposed to ally with imperial guard or space marines? (Pls forgive my utter noobishness)
They've been through a few incarnations. They came out in the mid-90s as the last codex before the big change from 2nd edition to 3rd. And they were explicitly meant to be an ally army with no real long range weapons or heavy hand to hand units.
Then they got a few mini lists and finally a real codex in 2004, but they were merged with the Inquisition. They got a few stand alone units in there and an all-sisters army was viable.
Then they were demerged and got a stand along codex, but it was digital only with no new models.
They've been stagnant so long, with models going OOP and no plastic or even fine cast coming out most people assume they're dead and GW just won't say so because they are nice models and there'd be a backlash.
If they're ever developed again anything can happen. GW has no issues with just creating stuff out of thin air, so if they want to say there's a unit called the Sisters of Holy Light who all carry lascannons who's to say they're wrong.
They're a neat concept but other than an FFGRPG book a few years back nothing's been done with them.
Azreal13 wrote: It really seems like there are people who identify as SoB fans who, in reality, dislike everything about them sometimes!
If we had something good to talk about, we would talk about that.
But for hte most part, we don't.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Dwarfmorf101 wrote: I'm kinda new to 40k but aren't sisters like inquisition or knights where there only supposed to ally with imperial guard or space marines? (Pls forgive my utter noobishness)
Sort of? Unlike Knights or Inquisition they are actually able to field a full force organization chart and don't need to rely on special rules exempting them from needing troops on the ground, and so on. They are cripplingly undercapable of dealing with air units though, though there are some ways around that without necessarily needing to ally.
Fluf-wise they make more sense fighting allied with another force or in a defensive capacity if they're fighting alone... At least until GW releases an 'imperial civilians not worshipping in quite the right way' supplement (complete with codex and plastics to add insult to injury.)
Then they were demerged and got a stand along codex, but it was digital only with no new models.
Before the digital codex there was a two-part white dwarf exclusive codex that reworked the act of faith system to severely reduce its effectiveness in larger armies. That was actually probably the lowest point for Sisters, as GW refused to offer up those rules digitally, leaving players with no legitimate way to get them after the White Dwarf issues sold out.
The current situation is actually preferable, as the Codex is available and doesn't actively punish you for taking a large sisters force instead of allying a few squads with your precious space marines. Pretty much every unit listed therein is buildable, even if it requires you to either buy the kit on another army's page or find it hidden and unadvertised (the Immolator parts are included with the Exorcist kit, happy spending)
I don't actually mind them as an army in terms of competitiveness right now I suppose.
Some things are good, some are not. AV 13 is something they can spam. Dominions and Avenger Strike Fighters are also pretty good in a heavy Knight meta like mine, so you can field something other than exorcists once in awhile.
Ashiraya wrote: I don't think Avenger Strike Fighters counts because everyone can take them.
That doesn't bother me much. I don't want them to be snowflakes with Nunguns, Nunfury Strike Missiles, and Nunflame ammo. I just want them to be fully capable. It adds options to their loadout, so I dig it. If GW said, "Sisters can use the Gladius Strike Formation, sub in battle sisters for tac squads, canoness for captains, and Sororitas Command Squads for Marine Command Squads, I'd still be happy.
Ashiraya wrote: I don't think Avenger Strike Fighters counts because everyone can take them.
That doesn't bother me much. I don't want them to be snowflakes with Nunguns, Nunfury Strike Missiles, and Nunflame ammo. I just want them to be fully capable. It adds options to their loadout, so I dig it. If GW said, "Sisters can use the Gladius Strike Formation, sub in battle sisters for tac squads, canoness for captains, and Sororitas Command Squads for Marine Command Squads, I'd still be happy.
i actually like that idea. they wouldn't even have to rewrite a book just a FAQ errant thing
Ashiraya wrote: I don't think Avenger Strike Fighters counts because everyone can take them.
*Anyone* can take *any* flyer now, with the Death from the Skies formations - bring them Heldrakes for your Tau army! Only Adepta Sororitas and Astra Militarum can take Avenger Strike Fighters as Heavy Support options though. Unless you're playing 30k, then anyone can take a wing of them as a Lord of War.
as if they were investigating heresy before their attack
Sororitas aren't investigators, though. The Orders Militant aren't the heresy police, they're the heresy SWAT - they don't turn up unless something needs to be on fire*.
The Arbites, yes, but I'd question putting Arbites in a sororitas list.
Frateris Militia, on the other hand, are a good idea. Redemptionists as an Imperial Cultist equivalent give the sisters something the astartes don't have - a 'chaff' unit you can use to gum up the works - and it helps cover off their main units weakness in close combat by providing a sort of 'bubblewrap' unit. (which they should keep - aside from specialist units, Sororitas should be bad in close combat - they are veteran human soldiers, which means S3, T3, and either WS4/BS3 or WS3/BS4 depending on their training).
Their basic costs could use re-assessing. In theory, they were intended as a 'third tier' troops infantry unit, but the game has moved on quite a bit:
1st tier heavy infantry - the 20-odd point stuff like deathwatch veterans, grey knights, marked chosen, cryptek-led immortals and cult marines outclass them in every aspect, but then they should. The problem is that they now outclass them point-for-point, especially when army-wide rules are taken into account.
2nd tier heavy infantry - 13-15 point tactical marines, necron warriors and chaos marines - have come down in cost and up in capability, so you're now only saving a point or two by downgrading to a battle sister - which isn't really enough to justify their loss of capability when compared to a tactical marine. This goes double because veteran sergeants now come as standard and because some of the sororitas' tricks have been given to marines (blood angels having heavy flamers, for example), and the free transports make mechanised sororitas (historically their best list) look proportionately more expensive.
The third tier - 10-12 point stuff - has equally gotten better. Sisters used to be a nice comparison to marine scouts - both were medium infantry with bolters, but one got space marines' T4 and and they shall know no fear, the other got BS4 and power armour. Now scouts are WS4 BS4 too, they kind of show the sister up a bit. Skitarii have also appeared in this bracket, and frankly do the 'small arms gunline' much better - haywire is more reliable antitank than melta, and their doctrines allow much more impressive bonuses than acts of faith because they're army-wide.
They could definitely do with a rework of the acts of faith rules - they've never really gotten them right. I'd probably rather make them army-wide; doing them unit-by-unit seems a bit......fiddly, and easy to lose track of in big games. Doing X-number of single unit effects won't scale right from small to big games.
What I don't want are a sororitas equivalent of Doctrina Imperatives or Tactical Doctrines. They should feel like 'miracles' - you shouldn't have a continuous stream of them, rather one or two moments in the game where suddenly something almost impossible happens. I'd rather have only a couple - even only one - act of faith happen in a game and make it really, really special.
* I accept, here, that a lot of things in the 41st millenium need to be on fire.
/ BMG: Mr. Freeze, Deathstroke / Battletech: SR, OWA / Fallout Factions: BoS / HGB: Caprice / Malifaux: Arcanists, Guild, Outcasts / MCP: Mutants / SAGA: Ordensstaat / SW Legion: CIS / WWX: Union
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