The Future of the Horus Heresy at Warhammer Fest

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**Vulkan_He'stan**

necrontyrOG wrote:

Spoiler:

Looks like this is being answered already:

Looks like we're getting our own rules then!

**docdoom77**

Vulkan_He'stan wrote:
necrontyrOG wrote:

Spoiler:

Looks like this is being answered already:

Looks like we're getting our own rules then!

Funny, that's the opposite of what I got from that. Sounds like they'll be using 8th edition and need time to update all the new rules.

**Vulkan_He'stan**

docdoom77 wrote:
Vulkan_He'stan wrote:
necrontyrOG wrote:

Spoiler:

Looks like this is being answered already:

Looks like we're getting our own rules then!

Funny, that's the opposite of what I got from that. Sounds like they'll be using 8th edition and need time to update all the new rules.

"the updated version of warhammer 40,000 or the upcoming Horus Heresey rules"

I guess it can be interpreted either way, but I got it as there will be separate rules for HH

**docdoom77**

Vulkan_He'stan wrote:
docdoom77 wrote:
Vulkan_He'stan wrote:
necrontyrOG wrote:

Spoiler:

Looks like this is being answered already:

Looks like we're getting our own rules then!

Funny, that's the opposite of what I got from that. Sounds like they'll be using 8th edition and need time to update all the new rules.

"the updated version of warhammer 40,000 or the upcoming Horus Heresey rules"

I guess it can be interpreted either way, but I got it as there will be separate rules for HH

It is vague, but my thinking is: If they weren't going to second edition, they wouldn't be warning us about the rules in the red book going kaplooey. Seems like if HH was going to be it's own thing, they would just update the 7th ed. rules in a way that doesn't invalidate the current unit rules.

I guess we're still kind of in the dark.

**tneva82**

No way that can mean "continue 7th ed". That wouldn't invalidate existing books. Likely the new HH rules is expansion of 8th ed like current HH rules are expansion of 7th ed.

If they WEREN'T moving to 8th ed would they really invalidate existing rules...When they aren't even complete yet(all the missing legions)

**SirDonlad**

Hmm.

Not compatible with 8th edition or the upcoming dedicated HH ruleset?

That version of the index legions astartes which is on sale was the one that was updated for 7th edition isn't it? With its psychic phase/warpcharge pool nonsense..

I really hope that this is an extreme FW curveball and the upcoming HH ruleset will be based on 6th edition rules..

**King Amroth**

SirDonlad wrote:
Hmm.

Not compatible with 8th edition or the upcoming dedicated HH ruleset?

That version of the index legions astartes which is on sale was the one that was updated for 7th edition isn't it? With its psychic phase/warpcharge pool nonsense..

I really hope that this is an extreme FW curveball and the upcoming HH ruleset will be based on 6th edition rules..

This is the version for 7th, they have just told you that it will very soon not be compatible with 40k or the horus heresy, taking anything from that other than heresy will be an expansion to 8th is dreamland thinking.

**H.B.M.C.**

That just implies that the upcoming HH rules are different to the current HH rules, which to me says that they're AoS'ing the HH rules just as they have 40K.

So we'll never get the final Legions in a rule-set compatible with the others.

It was a nice book series when it lasted.

**djones520**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
That just implies that the upcoming HH rules are different to the current HH rules, which to me says that they're AoS'ing the HH rules just as they have 40K.

So we'll never get the final Legions in a rule-set compatible with the others.

It was a nice book series when it lasted.

That's what hurts the most to me about this.

My legion will never be fully fleshed out along with the other Legions. I'll forever be shackled to whatever this new ruleset of theirs is.

**hotsauceman1**

Wait, are you guys saying that, because of the new 8th, they will not be doing the final legions?
Because that is what it sounds like

**Adeptus Doritos**

Absolutely nowhere in this does it say that the new HH won't be using 8th edition rules. At all.

**Massaen**

Alan Bligh confirmed at this years HH Weekender in Feb that the rules would move to 8th edition as HH is simply a supplement of 40k.

The new blurbs on products only confirm this stance. Several people who posted here also get why as a business this will happen regardless.

Remember that book 1 (and maybe 2?) were written in 6th ed! These books have been out dated for quite some time now but they still sell these - they are great for artwork, colour schemes, missions and of course the detailed narrative. All of this is true for the 7 books at present.

Personally, I think we will see they year out with 7th potentially with the HH Weekender next Feb being the switch over... it could be later this year at the FW open day mind you.

For my hobby though I have shelved 30k (buying and playing) until its updated to 8th.

**tneva82**

SirDonlad wrote:
Hmm.

Not compatible with 8th edition or the upcoming dedicated HH ruleset?

That version of the index legions astartes which is on sale was the one that was updated for 7th edition isn't it? With its psychic phase/warpcharge pool nonsense..

I really hope that this is an extreme FW curveball and the upcoming HH ruleset will be based on 6th edition rules..

It would be rather silly to make dedicated HH ruleset that's not based on 8th ed and not compatible for current rules. That creates all the issues of resources needed to update rules except MORE nevermind competing basically with GW.

**kronk**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
Wait, are you guys saying that, because of the new 8th, they will not be doing the final legions?
Because that is what it sounds like

No one said that. They're saying they won't be doing the final legions in 7th edition rules.

Everything from here on out will be using 8th edition rules. Expect new red books soon for General Legions units (tactical squads, Rites of War, etc), Legion Specific units (Primarchs, Templar Brethren), Solar Auxilia, and Mechanicum in 8th edition formats.

**hotsauceman1**

kronk wrote:
hotsauceman1 wrote:
Wait, are you guys saying that, because of the new 8th, they will not be doing the final legions?
Because that is what it sounds like

No one said that. They're saying they won't be doing the final legions in 7th edition rules.

Everything from here on out will be using 8th edition rules. Expect new red books soon for General Legions units (tactical squads, Rites of War, etc), Legion Specific units (Primarchs, Templar Brethren), Solar Auxilia, and Mechanicum in 8th edition formats.

Ok, Why is that a bad thing? Why is not having the legion rules in 7th edition such a bad thing that people are upset about.

**kronk**

Some people want all 18 legions to have the same 6th/7th edition rules. THEN, go ahead and make 8th edition rules for everything. That way, people that like the 6th/7th edition rules can continue playing them on the same footing.

Understandable concern/want. Not going to happen now, it seems.

**kyrellification**

It is quite confusing at the moment, as on the print copy rules on their website, FW state that they are staying with the current version.

**H.B.M.C.**

Methinks they don't know what's happening either. I'd imagine a lot of frantic meetings are happening at FW.

Good to see them planning ahead.

**ArbitorIan**

kyrellification wrote:
It is quite confusing at the moment, as on the print copy rules on their website, FW state that they are staying with the current version.

I really can't see the confusion - it seems that every source so far has been saying the same thing.

The very first 'press release' of 40k said that 30k would be staying with 7ed 'for the time being'
The FW Webstore link above currently says that 30k continues to use the 7ed ruleset.
Alan Bligh has stated that they will, eventually, switch over to 8th
The image from further up the thread states that the current red books are useable at the moment but will not be compatible with either 'updated 40k' or 'updated HH' when it's released.

From all that, it seems pretty clear (and has done since the press release) that 30k will be switching to 8th at some point, we just don't know when.

IMO, I can't see them publishing Angelus before switching over or 'doing the last three legions' in 7ed form. Splitting the player base would be bad for business, and GW have been releasing new editions for 30 years now. At no point have they wanted people to continue playing the old edition when they do so.

I can't even see any 'frantic meetings' happening, as other have said - I imagine FW are quite busy updating their IA armies and models with new 40k rules right now, and have put off 30k for a bit. The only urgent question is probably the timing and publishing of Angelus, and if they have to delay it to accommodate 8ed HH rules-writing. Either they give themselves a deadline for new 8ed HH because of wanting Angelus to come out on schedule, or they delay Angelus, or they bring it out faster than planned and then invalidate it relatively soon after.

**gorgon**

I think the talk of Titanicus being delayed until 2018 makes some sense now.

**djones520**

ArbitorIan wrote:
kyrellification wrote:
It is quite confusing at the moment, as on the print copy rules on their website, FW state that they are staying with the current version.

I really can't see the confusion - it seems that every source so far has been saying the same thing.

The very first 'press release' of 40k said that 30k would be staying with 7ed 'for the time being'
The FW Webstore link above currently says that 30k continues to use the 7ed ruleset.
Alan Bligh has stated that they will, eventually, switch over to 8th
The image from further up the thread states that the current red books are useable at the moment but will not be compatible with either 'updated 40k' or 'updated HH' when it's released.

From all that, it seems pretty clear (and has done since the press release) that 30k will be switching to 8th at some point, we just don't know when.

IMO, I can't see them publishing Angelus before switching over or 'doing the last three legions' in 7ed form. Splitting the player base would be bad for business, and GW have been releasing new editions for 30 years now. At no point have they wanted people to continue playing the old edition when they do so.

I can't even see any 'frantic meetings' happening, as other have said - I imagine FW are quite busy updating their IA armies and models with new 40k rules right now, and have put off 30k for a bit. The only urgent question is probably the timing and publishing of Angelus, and if they have to delay it to accommodate 8ed HH rules-writing. Either they give themselves a deadline for new 8ed HH because of wanting Angelus to come out on schedule, or they delay Angelus, or they bring it out faster than planned and then invalidate it relatively soon after.

Never before, not even in the 2nd edition to 3rd edition switch, has GW changed its game so much though. From 3rd through 7th edition, every codex could concievably be used in each edition, if one was daring enough to do so. They all shared the same basic feature, even in 2nd edition. WS, BS, vehicles had AV's, etc...

All of that is going away. You say that splitting the player base is bad for business, but you don't seem to be acknowledging that the player base had already been split between 30K and 40K. And now they're going to cause another split, that's going to lose them more customers then it'll gain them, IMO.

**Tamwulf**

If I had a nickel for every time someone said "GW will lose customers with this edition change!" I'd probably have enough to buy a Frappachino at Starbucks!

GW has cared very little for it's veteran player base. It's entire strategy is the new player. New players drop hundreds of Dollars/Pounds/Euros/Yen <insert your currency here>. A veteran player? Might have 1-3 armies. After the first army, they look at eBay and recasts or friends selling armies to save money. Veteran players don't grow the player base. GW stores and FLGS's grow the player base.

Unbound was made for those new players. "Oh, you like the Leman Russ tank and Space Marines? And that Wraithknight? Well, you can buy all three of those boxes and play a game with them! You don't have to play one specific army!" If that isn't a noobie friendly approach to a game, I don't know what is. You know who cried the most about Unbound? Veterans.

The new starter army boxes are fantastic deals! I wish they had them when I started playing. When I bought my AoS Ironjawz, my first purchase was the Ironjawz box, a Shaman, and a Megaboss. Again, do you know who complains the most about those army boxes? Veterans. "I had to pay full price for my army!"

Codexes made invalid/free rules: LOL once again, veterans complain the most.

Noobs don't know the history of GW. GW fishes for new players all the time. Slick ad campaigns, starter army boxes, GW stores that encourage them. They haven't lived through an edition change yet and seen all that money they spend on rules/codexes be made invalid, and their army that stomped in this edition is no longer viable in the new edition.

You have a couple choices: Adapt and overcome to the new edition, or cut your losses and run. Both choices are viable. GW doesn't care what you do. Leave the game? OK. Their sales over the last 30 years indicate to them that for every player that stops playing, two more start.* Stay in the game? Awesome! You'll probably have to spend some money, though not as much as a new player, but GW doesn't hate your money.

How many of us have seen that disgruntled vet that eBay'ed their army in protest, and six months later, show up to the FLGS with a new army? LOL I bet GW loves those veteran players!

*I have no sales figures or stats to back that statement up, but GW has grown every year since the 80's. My personal experience after playing GW games for 25 years is that it's true. I see a disgruntled vet sell all their stuff off, and I see a fresh, new face show up at the LGS ready to play. At the very least, it's a 1 to 1 swap. Usually, it's 1-3 new people- a friend and their friends that bought into the game.

**tneva82**

Gw sales have not grown every year. They sold less and less for years(or how you explain raising prices and dropping or at best flat lining sale income)

Also you are dissing too much veteran purchases or what they do to attract players

**obsidiankatana**

The business model as it stands is pretty clear-cut that GW wants cross-accessibility between AoS players and 40k players. With extremely similar rulesets, every player they pulled into the hobby from the Fantasy -> AoS transition is a potential 40k player.

As far as 30k? The past year or two have shown a willingness for the Heresy model lines and even FW items to be present in GW stores. It'd be absurd for them throw away that foothold in sticking to the 7th ed ruleset. And this is coming from someone who loves 30k under the current ruleset and would absolutely prefer a toned-down 7th book to the current 8th propositions.

**ArbitorIan**

djones520 wrote:
Never before, not even in the 2nd edition to 3rd edition switch, has GW changed its game so much though. From 3rd through 7th edition, every codex could concievably be used in each edition, if one was daring enough to do so. They all shared the same basic feature, even in 2nd edition. WS, BS, vehicles had AV's, etc...

All of that is going away. You say that splitting the player base is bad for business, but you don't seem to be acknowledging that the player base had already been split between 30K and 40K. And now they're going to cause another split, that's going to lose them more customers then it'll gain them, IMO.

Yeah, that a fair point. I'm not sure it will lose them more customers, though. I've seen lots of people at my local club being really interested at getting back into 40k because of the new ruleset. And AoS, while it was decried at first, seems now to be a lot more popular than WHFB was.

I know there are a lot of people who play 30k and have deliberately stopped/sold off their 40k, but I think there are probably more who play both systems (sometimes with the same models). I'm not sure the community is as 'split' at the moment as you suggest - if there IS a split, then it's a split of setting, not caused because of the slog of having to learn two sets of rules. Though the games and armies are different, the basic rules are the same at the moment between 30k and 40k, and I think that this is a major contributor to the popularity of 30k. I don't think I would have been bothered to pick up 30k (or it would have taken longer) if it was a whole new rule set.

**Freytag93**

ArbitorIan wrote:
IMO, I can't see them publishing Angelus before switching over or 'doing the last three legions' in 7ed form. Splitting the player base would be bad for business, and GW have been releasing new editions for 30 years now. At no point have they wanted people to continue playing the old edition when they do so.

How does that split the player base? And why would GW even care? From the GW/FW perspective, as long as you're buying models they don't care what edition you're playing. If they have a ton of people stay playing 7th ed, those are still potential customers for every new FW release or HH boxed set. Do you think they cared that many of the players buying BaC weren't playing the game in the box? It's all about selling models. Who cares what edition the hobbiests (buyers) are playing?

I agree that it wouldn't make much sense to release the next book as a 7th edition one. But there would be no harm in releasing rules for the last 3 legions before switching over.

**hotsauceman1**

Again, Why? Why do the last 3 legions need rules for 7th?
Dont they already have those?
They are not gonna do a release of the legions in 7th.
They are likely working on rules for 40k models now so people can play their models right away. Then work on whatever they plan on for 30k

**tneva82**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
Again, Why? Why do the last 3 legions need rules for 7th?
Dont they already have those?
They are not gonna do a release of the legions in 7th.
They are likely working on rules for 40k models now so people can play their models right away. Then work on whatever they plan on for 30k

Not really at least to level others have. Very simple ones. Which is why some people are pissed off.

Funny thought. Depending on how far they got in development of those they might not release them in a book but as a free PDF as last good bye gift for 7th ed. Not saying they are doing it or even it's likely but in theory it's possible if finishing them off doesn't take too much time. Primarches, couple new units, maybe tweak legion rules if they felt needed. Then put it in nice looking PDF. Would get at least some "good karma" for doing it with no drawbacks of having to stay in 7th ed or release expensive book invalidated like immediately which would cut down potential buyers(which is not what FW would look for with expensive books)

**ArbitorIan**

Reposting this from Heresy 30k forums, and in turn from Geno Five Two podcast. Looks like they're switching to 8th, but no news yet on how long it will take.

------------------------

Interesting email genofivetwopodcast received

https://www.facebook...853910288209245

And for those without Facebook or hate links:

So last week I emailed FW to ask for some clarification on what Heresy players might expect from the release of 8th (this was after the live FAQ where no extra detail was given).
I have just received a reply, so thought I'd share it. Make of it what you will.
Stuart

My email:
On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 9:59 AM BST, Stuart wrote:
Good morning all,
I'm sure you have already have been asked this a number of times, but I know a lot of the 30k community would love a little bit more clarity or detail on longer term plans for rules.
I appreciate that on the community site we have been told to keep on using the 7th ed rules 'for now', and on Facebook 'Heresy games will be using the standard rules for the foreseeable future'. I guess I/we/many of us would like to know what 'foreseeable' really means for our game.
GW mainstream have been awesome is communicating what we can expect from the new game, and we will continue to hear new rules etc until release, but with every bit of news, 30k players will be getting more and more eager to understand what 'for now/foreseeable' really means for the future of the game. We eagerly watched the live FAQ, heresy was brought up, we were told it would be answered later on, but it wasn't.
This is not a complaint, or a moan, but spending hundreds and perhaps thousands of pounds (in some cases) on FW models requires some level of understanding of the future. So with that in mind, could you possible clear up any of the following questions at this stage?
1). 'For now/Foreseeable future' suggests that 8th will be adopted at some point in the future. Obviously the 8th ed release date has not been made public, but is the plan for Heresy to continue to be a supplement and follow the main studio rules, eventually resulting in 8th ed being adopted?
2). Assuming the answer to question one is Yes, is the reason for heresy continuing to use 7th ed 'for now/foreseeable' because of the amount of time needed to bring the rules up to date? We appreciate what a massive job this is for a small rules team.
3). Again assuming heresy will adopt 8th eventually, how far behind 40k main should we expect this to be, and is this likely to be before or after the planned book 8?
4). Finally, assuming you're not allowed to or cannot answer these questions now, will FW put out a statement on 8th rules/future plans for rules soon, at least once the main studio has announced the 40k 8th ed release date?
Essay over, I'm sure you understand that we just want to know a bit more about the longer term future of our game.
Kind Regards
Stuart
Stuart and Tom - Geno Five Two Podcast

Their Reply:
Hi Stuart.
Thanks for contacting us and please accept our apologies for the delay in replying. We certainly appreciate your questions and we will do our best to answer them below.
1. It will be the plan to eventually update the Horus Heresy rules to be compatible with the new edition of the 40k rules as this makes logical sense.
2. Your reasoning is spot on here as there is a vast amount of work that would need to be done by our studio to make these changes and they each (mostly) have only one pair of hands. We also want to present any updated Horus Heresy rules in as comprehensive and full manner as possible to avoid any players feeling left out with their armies not being playable.
3. We don't have any information regarding when any changes will be made or when any new releases will be available currently, sorry.
4. As it it likely to be some time until any new Horus Heresy rules will be released we don't think that the Forge World studio will make any announcements regarding this soon but rest assured, as soon as more information is available we will announce it.
How would you rate my reply?
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If there is anything further we can do to assist you, or if you have any queries about the information we have requested or provided, please telephone us.
Regards,
Forge World

**tneva82**

No surprises there. Surprise answer could have come if you had remembered to ask if they would be planning to release 7th ed rules(say in PDF if not full book) for remaining legions.