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Abel





Washington State

Forge World posted to their community website today (May 1st) that they will be making an announcement about the future of the Horus Heresy and the new edition of 40K.

Warhammer Fest is May 27th and 28th.

Forge World- please, please finish out the Legions in 7th edition first. After that, I don't care what you guys do.

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I doubt it. I have a feeling they will be telling us about the new Red army books that will convert everything over to 8th ed.

To be fair so far everything on the 8th Ed rules seems fine to me. Not better, not worse, but fine.

And gak after Inferno there are now some serious balance issues that need to be resolved. And I say this as a proud Thousand Sons player lol.

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I actually want them to change to 8th edition, but it seems more likely that they'll put out a modified version of 7th to keep everything compatible.


   
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LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote:
I doubt it. I have a feeling they will be telling us about the new Red army books that will convert everything over to 8th ed.

To be fair so far everything on the 8th Ed rules seems fine to me. Not better, not worse, but fine.

And gak after Inferno there are now some serious balance issues that need to be resolved. And I say this as a proud Thousand Sons player lol.


It's just more that I want to see the last three Legions in 7th edition form. I have no idea why FW strayed from the Legions when they wrote book IV and V. That really put them behind, and took the focus off what the Horus Heresy was famous for- the Legions. Book VI was a nice return to that focus. Then the long drought while waiting for Book VII. I have to say book VII is probably the worst book in the series by far. Internal balance issues, poor editing, lack of artwork. It really feels like a rushed book. That makes me really scratch my head as they had well over a year in development for it. I could speculate all day long as to why it's like that, but seems kinda useless now if they are just gonna roll everything over to 8th edition. My big concern about that- how long will it take them to update everything to 8th edition, and how much longer are we going to have to wait for the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and White Scars? Two years? Three years? 9th edition? This is why I'm saying finish the Legions FIRST, then make it all 8th edition. I would quite happily continue playing 7th edition in 30K for a while longer if it meant we would finally get to see all the Legions complete.

I'm really looking forward to 8th edition. I love playing AoS, and if they can blend the AoS rules and 40K rules well enough, it should be a fantastic edition! I just don't want it to disrupt and delay 30K. Right now, it sounds like GW is ready to go with 40K. They could probably flip a switch tomorrow and we'd be in 8th edition. Forge World... not so much.

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The hope is that Book 7 is a mess because part way through the development cycle they got the news that things will be switching to 8th. Then they pooped out what they had so they wouldn't lose that work.

My sincerest hope is that they update everything with new red books to be in line with 8th edition and then move forward to making the black books be campaign focused. That makes a lot more sense than trying to keep 7th alive for a prolonged period of time. That risks fracturing the player base as people skip out on playing Horus Heresy until the switch is made. Why would anyone buy the next book if they know the switch is coming?
   
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I feel they have two possible options regarding the rules:

1) Write a custom set of rules that uses the classic stat blocks.
This could be a 'reskinned' 7th ed rulebook, this could also be some hybrid of 7th with 8th such that it uses the 7th edition stat blocks but makes use of 8th ed mechanics.

2) Convert to 'pure' 8th edition.

In my opinion, they cannot stick with 7th edition as-is because it shows unwillingness to change with the times.
It sends a very mixed message to the customer base.

Regarding the legions:
I doubt we will see the whole 18 legions in 'pure' 7th edition compatible rules, simply because 7th is officially defunct.

I agree that its annoying to not get a full set of 7th ed legions, but what can you do? *shrugs*
I also agree that FW should have used books 4 and 5 to finish off the legions, however, this probably would have caused release clashes. Was 7th released around then?
The angels legions are big 40k armies so are probably expected to sell well and compete with other big releases.

Some of the slowness is probably due to Alan Bligh's illness.
(See the FW news and rumours thread)
I would also assume that FW doesn't want to rush the HH into 8th because its thier cash cow. A quick check of thier bestsellers says as much.

I agree with you Bobgaluv, you've phrased yourself very eloquently.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/01 18:54:43


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I am expecting a "Age of Darkness: The Rules" set-up with a reskinned and streamlined 7th Ed.

It becomes like its own specialist game at that point.

   
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It's very good news that they're addressing it. It's needed.

I think moving to 8th eventually is the obvious thing for them to do, and it's also probably the best thing for us. GW almost certainly doesn't want 30K and 40K to have wildly different rulesets. And while there will be more short-term pain in moving to 8th (for us and for FW), it will bring more of a living rulebook approach to the system and potentially smooth out the bumps compared to having the big jolt of a full edition change every few years. Sixth to 7th wasn't even a big overhaul, but it left 30K in limbo for quite a while due to the changes to psychics and other items.

FW also seems to have far too much on its plate already (when was the last major initiative of theirs that arrived on time?) to hand them the management of a 7.5 edition. Although switching all the units and army rules over to 8th is a BIG project that figures to create more balance issues at first, they should be able to take quite a few cues from the GW SM stuff, apply them to the Legions, and go from there. Armies like SA and Mechanicum would definitely be more work.

Ultimately, all we really would need are red books compatible with 8th. And it's not like they aren't going to redo those at some point anyway.

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bogalubov wrote:
The hope is that Book 7 is a mess because part way through the development cycle they got the news that things will be switching to 8th. Then they pooped out what they had so they wouldn't lose that work.

My sincerest hope is that they update everything with new red books to be in line with 8th edition and then move forward to making the black books be campaign focused. That makes a lot more sense than trying to keep 7th alive for a prolonged period of time. That risks fracturing the player base as people skip out on playing Horus Heresy until the switch is made. Why would anyone buy the next book if they know the switch is coming?



THIS!!!!

I really would love to see new Red Books with updated rules for 8th...and have the black books feature more force org charts for narrative play, missions, and even more detailed fluff building on what was already there.

I think people who bought the original books should be given a TREMENDOUS discount to buy new physical hard copies to replace what they already own, or given some sort of exchange program.

And I think PDF's should be free for everything new to anyone who has already paid for a physical book or E Book...so you reward customers who have been faithful. You don't really lose anything there, instead you encourage new players to trust taking the plunge.
   
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There was a rumor in the past, saying HH gets a own ruleset.
   
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 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
I am expecting a "Age of Darkness: The Rules" set-up with a reskinned and streamlined 7th Ed.

It becomes like its own specialist game at that point.


I really don't expect to see this at all. I expect that we'll see the red books updated for 8th edition, and the series continues.

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I want a dedicated HH ruleset - feth buying a complete set of books again. FW should finish doing rules for all legions/forces for the 6th/7th ruleset and then start on their 8th edition versions of things.

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 kronk wrote:
 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
I am expecting a "Age of Darkness: The Rules" set-up with a reskinned and streamlined 7th Ed.

It becomes like its own specialist game at that point.


I really don't expect to see this at all. I expect that we'll see the red books updated for 8th edition, and the series continues.


Unless FW was made aware early on of 8th and had it in mind, I don't want to see it. 7th works for 30k. Might as well embrace it and make it its own thing.

Though yea, maybe it will go 8th. I am fine either way really.

   
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Happy for it to go either way tbh.

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A cleaned up 7th built with just the Heresy in mind is my hope.

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I seem to be with the majority here. Clean up 7th edition.

I personally had very little issue with 7th. The reason I left 40K was because of the Formations, and only because of Formations. Well, grav guns as well...

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While I don't think that Inferno was 'written 8th in mind' exactly, the to-hit modifying entries in that book makes me think that they had at least a little knowledge of what was coming.


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They need to move heresy to 8th as soon as possible from a business stand point. As long as both systems are the same it allows easy conversion from 40k to 30k if they arent the same system we are screwed as the player base will be harder to grow.
Heresy as is works fine and is fun but it has to move to 8th or the game will die and GW will lose money in the long run.
   
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 King Amroth wrote:
They need to move heresy to 8th as soon as possible from a business stand point. As long as both systems are the same it allows easy conversion from 40k to 30k if they arent the same system we are screwed as the player base will be harder to grow.
Heresy as is works fine and is fun but it has to move to 8th or the game will die and GW will lose money in the long run.


I disagree. GW lost a huge section of customers when they did the AOS switch. Not everyone is excited about 8th edition, and how different it will make the game. Many disaffected 40K players, who moved to 30K won't go back. This would leave a system in place to keep those customers who prefered vehicles to have armor values, and the like, to continue playing a game that still gets regular support.

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 djones520 wrote:
 King Amroth wrote:
They need to move heresy to 8th as soon as possible from a business stand point. As long as both systems are the same it allows easy conversion from 40k to 30k if they arent the same system we are screwed as the player base will be harder to grow.
Heresy as is works fine and is fun but it has to move to 8th or the game will die and GW will lose money in the long run.


I disagree. GW lost a huge section of customers when they did the AOS switch. Not everyone is excited about 8th edition, and how different it will make the game. Many disaffected 40K players, who moved to 30K won't go back. This would leave a system in place to keep those customers who prefered vehicles to have armor values, and the like, to continue playing a game that still gets regular support.


You are welcome to disagree but im talking business not emotive desires to play a game, GW doesnt care about the people who stopped playing in any way, they arent a problem as they have already provided GW with most of what they were going to. GW is mainly interested in NEW customers, they are foccused on recruitment for now and retention is more of a long term goal. Having 30k use anything other than 8th edition rules is a very VERY very VERY bad thing for them as a business decision as it is a BARRIER to entry and they are trying very hard to remove every single one of them, the best you can hope for if you are one of the people hoping not to see a full 8th edition 30k move is that 30k will follow the 8th edition 40k rulebook to the letter but as an expansion will provide some things that are in 7th such as instead of toughness everywhere that can be wounded even by a flashlight suddenly they can only be wounded by weapon of s x and above.


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Also contrary to popular belief GW only lost a very small basically tiny amount of customers with the move to AOS and infact gained a rise in customers for AOS that has pushed it far beyond fantasy already and is actually getting to the point it could compete with 40k which is the flagship brand.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/03 01:12:03


 
   
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I hope they take the time to do a Horus Heresy rule set that cleans up 7th Ed so that they can continue and finish this series of books without a giant fundamental change in rules halfway through.

I know GW is a fan of changing horses mid-race, but going from 7th Ed rules to 8th Ed rules in the middle of a series like this would be like changing your horse and replacing it with a greyhound. It's a completely different sport. It would annoy many who started the series with book 1 and wanted to see it all the way through, and it will mean that those jumping into the 8th will have a bunch of HH books that don't work anymore, meaning they have to start the series partway through.

Then FW will need to release "Second Editions" for the existing HH books to update them, including the one they just finished (Inferno). I don't know about you guys, but I'm sure as hell not buying a bunch of £70-£80 books again. No thanks.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/03 04:30:46


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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Then FW will need to release "Second Editions" for the existing HH books to update them, including the one they just finished (Inferno). I don't know about you guys, but I'm sure as hell not buying a bunch of £70-£80 books again. No thanks.

I don´t think they can do that anyway. Rewrite everything except fluff. They don´t have the recources for that. It would take for years.

I think they should stick with the 7th edition. Updating 1 book is better and more effektive than do that with everything.
Oh. And GW lost at least the whole fantasy community in my country with AOS. They did this one horrible. And now they do with 40k the same(Well, without the same stubitity as with AOS at least)......

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/03 12:44:07


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They update all fw models to 40k already. Is 30k really that much bigger to require years?

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Yeah, i beleive it will take years of constant trial and error from the ground up (betrayal was basicly legion marines with mechanicum land raiders and thallax allies for the loyalists)

This new edition is far too different to allow for quick porting of unit entries and the associated special rules - 6th and 7th were basicly the same game with tweaks.

How many wounds do you give to an imperial knight? How do you re-stat an irradiation engine? How do you represent photon thruster weaponry in the new system?

These questions were answered in the current setup by extensive trial and error since 2012 and i don't see them getting through the re-profiling process any time soon given that they are now going over all their 40k stuff including having to re-do the next imperial armour book before its been released.

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 SirDonlad wrote:
Yeah, i beleive it will take years of constant trial and error from the ground up (betrayal was basicly legion marines with mechanicum land raiders and thallax allies for the loyalists)

This new edition is far too different to allow for quick porting of unit entries and the associated special rules - 6th and 7th were basicly the same game with tweaks.

How many wounds do you give to an imperial knight? How do you re-stat an irradiation engine? How do you represent photon thruster weaponry in the new system?

These questions were answered in the current setup by extensive trial and error since 2012 and i don't see them getting through the re-profiling process any time soon given that they are now going over all their 40k stuff including having to re-do the next imperial armour book before its been released.

What he said. Phosphex and Graviton without templates.....

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Not to mention they are gonna have to give all models that already exist for 40k the th makeover, aswell as army lists possibly
Better to just say HH uses 7th for a bit.


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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Then FW will need to release "Second Editions" for the existing HH books to update them, including the one they just finished (Inferno). I don't know about you guys, but I'm sure as hell not buying a bunch of £70-£80 books again. No thanks.


Thing is, most of the stuff they'd need to update in the earlier books already need updating. The situation already exists.

While I think updating the red books is a big job, it's *hardly* an impossible one. The GW studio had a much, much larger job, and it's very possible that they created some rubrics for roughly translating units into 8th to help speed the process along. The Legions and Imperial Militia can also take some cues from their 40K counterparts. I suspect that HH will coast along under 7th for a while, but almost certainly make the jump within a year.

Now, will balance be lost in this process? Yeah, probably...but balance and how much GW and FW even care about balance is a different discussion than one about functional 8th edition profiles. It's also important to note that balance (which 30K never really had, but hold that thought) is already teetering under 7th edition rules from the stuff in Inferno.

Although it's interesting to note how Russ's armor suddenly seems more sane if you imagine Primarchs with fixed 2+ to hit rolls. Alan Bligh has talked about how Inferno represents Russ "at the height of his power" -- and that the representation of Angron shows him at the nadir of his -- which seems like a slightly puzzling comment to make with regard to balance unless he was already aware that new profiles were coming.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/03 16:30:06


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If, as is promised, FW units will get profiles for the new rules it seems reasonably simple to keep HH as 7th edition, have a streamlined rulebook just for it and keep going with it almost as the "advanced" game.

But then you have the download 8th edition stats so you can easily go either way.

Streamlining the core rules would also allow some changes to be made where required or desired without having to worry about the rest of the 40k universe
   
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 SirDonlad wrote:
Yeah, i beleive it will take years of constant trial and error from the ground up (betrayal was basicly legion marines with mechanicum land raiders and thallax allies for the loyalists)

This new edition is far too different to allow for quick porting of unit entries and the associated special rules - 6th and 7th were basicly the same game with tweaks.

How many wounds do you give to an imperial knight? How do you re-stat an irradiation engine? How do you represent photon thruster weaponry in the new system?

These questions were answered in the current setup by extensive trial and error since 2012 and i don't see them getting through the re-profiling process any time soon given that they are now going over all their 40k stuff including having to re-do the next imperial armour book before its been released.


Well knights is easy. Those are going to be done anyway both for GW knights and FW knights. Basically any unit that can be taken in 40k now will get 8th ed rules right away. That's btw lots of the vehicles etc. Sicara etc...So large part of units are already done and ready in 8th ed format as we speak.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/03 16:56:09


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