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2017/10/13 18:45:04
Subject: Oathmark- fantasy mass-battles from Osprey and North Star (preorders on the 13th)
There is absolutely no detail about the rules beyond the following:
It’s true, I am currently designing a mass-battle fantasy game as part of my job for Osprey Games. I don’t want to talk too much about it at present, because it is still in the early stages of development. It is still going to be a long time before a set of rules hits the market, and many elements can, and probably will, change from now until then.
That said, for the curious, I can make a few statements about which I am 'mostly' confident.
Oathmark is a ‘rank and file’ game, meaning that most figures will be organized into units that will fight in blocks.
However, the basic element of the game is the figure. Each figure has its own stats, and casualties are removed individually.
The standard base for most ‘human-ish’ sized figures is 25mm square, so figures mounted on round 25mm, or smaller, bases will be usable with movement trays.
The game features a bunch of different races – four main ones to start – each of which have unique stats.
There will be a full campaign system, which involves building your kingdom as well as your army. (Assuming I can get all of it to work!).
This game has no connection to Frostgrave other than sharing a few deep routed philosophies about what I believe makes a fun fantasy wargame. (Plus most of the plastic kits for the two games will be compatible!).
I’ll talk more about the game as I go along, but it will be a slow process. For now, enjoy the plastic minis that are coming soon!
I'm guessing but D20's provide more different results but if most of the results mean almost the same thing you might as well use a smaller dice a 17 or an 18 is usually a kill in Frostgrave so does it matter which you rolled?
"But me no buts! Our comrades get hurt. Our friends die. Falkenburg is a knight who swore an oath to serve the church and to defend the weak. He'd be the first to tell you to stop puling and start planning. Because what we are doing-at risk to ourselves-is what we have sworn to do. The West relies on us. It is a risk we take with pride. It is an oath we honour. Even when some soft southern burgher mutters about us, we know the reason he sleeps soft and comfortable, why his wife is able to complain about the price of cabbages as her most serious problem and why his children dare to throw dung and yell "Knot" when we pass. It's because we are what we are. For all our faults we stand for law and light.
Von Gherens This Rough Magic Lackey, Flint & Freer
Mekagorkalicious -Monkeytroll
2017 Model Count-71
2017/10/16 20:33:06
Subject: Oathmark- fantasy mass-battles from Osprey and North Star (preorders on the 13th)
It's kind of an empty complaint though. Who cares what shape the dice you roll are, as long as the numbers they generate are random. For example if you succeed on the top 25% of a dice's number range then it literally doesn't matter if they are d20s, d10s, d4s, or d100s (other than how much you want your modifiers to affect the roll) unless you're talking about the difference between a dice pool system and a straight diceroll.
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2017/10/16 22:46:48
2017/10/17 01:51:11
Subject: Oathmark- fantasy mass-battles from Osprey and North Star (preorders on the 13th)
There’s a joke in there about Robotech and Palladium I just know it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/17 05:59:32
LOL, Theo your mind is an amazing place, never change.-camkierhi 9/19/13
I cant believe theo is right.. damn. -comradepanda 9/26/13
None of the strange ideas we had about you involved your sexual orientation..........-Monkeytroll 12/10/13
I'd put you on ignore for that comment, if I could...Alpharius 2/11/14
2017/10/17 04:13:56
Subject: Oathmark- fantasy mass-battles from Osprey and North Star (preorders on the 13th)
Zethnar wrote: It's kind of an empty complaint though. Who cares what shape the dice you roll are, as long as the numbers they generate are random. For example if you succeed on the top 25% of a dice's number range then it literally doesn't matter if they are d20s, d10s, d4s, or d100s (other than how much you want your modifiers to affect the roll) unless you're talking about the difference between a dice pool system and a straight diceroll.
Yeah, isn't that the whole point? The differences between models aren't all that meaningful when one rolls D20+1 and another rolls D20+2. The stats make much more of a difference if the dice are D10 or D6 compared with the effect of the roll.
2017/10/17 16:44:44
Subject: Re:Oathmark- fantasy mass-battles from Osprey and North Star (preorders on the 13th)
One of the things widely criticized about Frostgrave (and I concur) is the swingy nature of D20. On a single dice roll, it's massive. D20 can work quite well in the right circumstances. Say for instance you want to simply use it in a fixed value. This unit has an Attack value of 12...so anything 1-12 is a success. Well then that's all well and good, and you can have serfs and peasants with Attack 2 and Knights of the Realm with Attack 17...and that's useful and a big deal. As mentioned above though D20+1 vs. D20+2 is almost ignoring the actual stat or modifier and you're just relying on a big swing either way in the dice roll.
2017/10/17 19:08:52
Subject: Oathmark- fantasy mass-battles from Osprey and North Star (preorders on the 13th)
FG can be swingy but it's pretty well-balanced overall (except that Treasure Hunters beat other henchmen for most purposes).
Although you're often only getting a small increase, e.g. +2 to damage for having a 2-handed weapon or crossbow rather than a one-handed weapon or bow, that makes a big difference even allowing for the swinginess, because of armour and health points. Against most opponents, a one-handed weapon or bow will not do a one-shot kill, whereas a 2H weapon or crossbow are much more scary to important targets such as wizards, because that one-shot kill is a very real possibility. It still might only happen 10% of the time, but that's enough of a risk that you probably don't expose your wizard to it, giving the soldiers with the +2 a significant area control power.
So, though I had misgivings about the swinginess originally, in practice it works pretty well for exciting but still tactically rich skirmish games.
I doubt Joe will use d20 for the mass battle game, mind.
Though, I think Frostgrave was intended to focus on the wizards and spells, and the spells do work more like that. A spell might succeed on a 16+ to start, but you level it up once and it's 15+. That only makes a small difference, but it also means you can level up lots of times in a campaign without running out of way to improve slightly.
2017/10/17 19:58:19
Subject: Oathmark- fantasy mass-battles from Osprey and North Star (preorders on the 13th)
These looks great and I love the way they are packaged. Reminds me of the old skeleton army boxes. Then I see the chain mail and despair. Even more so because the chain mail on the goblins look great. Why not get that guy to do both? They're not GW so release schedule can't be that pressing.
2017/10/17 22:58:06
Subject: Re:Oathmark- fantasy mass-battles from Osprey and North Star (plastic dwarf preorders now- FAQ added)
I'm pretty excited for this. Happy to have access to more plastic goblins!
And d10s, hooray! Much better than d6.
I really don't understand what folks mean by "swingy" d20s. 1-3 on a d6 is the same as 1-10 on a d20. There's no extra "randomness", and the granularity, to my mind, is a plus. You can create much more variability and distinctiveness with a d8 or d10 (or d20) based system. Long live the d10! Down with the d6!
I play...
Sigh.
Who am I kidding? I only paint these days...
2017/10/18 00:08:06
Subject: Oathmark- fantasy mass-battles from Osprey and North Star (preorders on the 13th)
Yeah, isn't that the whole point? The differences between models aren't all that meaningful when one rolls D20+1 and another rolls D20+2. The stats make much more of a difference if the dice are D10 or D6 compared with the effect of the roll.
That's exactly the point I was trying to make. Using a dice with a larger number of faces isn't 'false granularity' (something the post I was responding to claimed), in terms of distribution of results it's equivalent to using any die with a smaller number of faces as long as you are rolling only a single die (or a single die per figure). When you do take into account dice modifiers, however, it introduces a level of granularity that isn't available to dice with lower face counts.
It's all irrelevant though because by the sounds of it the game uses d10s.
2017/10/18 02:02:52
Subject: Oathmark- fantasy mass-battles from Osprey and North Star (plastic dwarf preorders now- FAQ added)
pancakeonions wrote: I'm pretty excited for this. Happy to have access to more plastic goblins!
And d10s, hooray! Much better than d6.
I really don't understand what folks mean by "swingy" d20s. 1-3 on a d6 is the same as 1-10 on a d20. There's no extra "randomness", and the granularity, to my mind, is a plus. You can create much more variability and distinctiveness with a d8 or d10 (or d20) based system. Long live the d10! Down with the d6!
With a D6 you are breaking down into 16.6% increments.
With a D10 you are breaking down into 10% increments.
With a D20 you are breaking down into 5% increments,
I can understand in a RPG that you would want a greater possible range of results, but in a wargame you generally abstract units down to simple stats since you just need to know if you hit, wound, save, or break.
And d10s may provide a really nice balance between the two. I'm officially intrigued by this game now (though it will be hard to dethrone Kings of War, which I still think is great)
I play...
Sigh.
Who am I kidding? I only paint these days...
2017/10/18 03:37:46
Subject: Oathmark- fantasy mass-battles from Osprey and North Star (plastic dwarf preorders now- FAQ added)
pancakeonions wrote: I'm pretty excited for this. Happy to have access to more plastic goblins!
And d10s, hooray! Much better than d6.
I really don't understand what folks mean by "swingy" d20s. 1-3 on a d6 is the same as 1-10 on a d20. There's no extra "randomness", and the granularity, to my mind, is a plus. You can create much more variability and distinctiveness with a d8 or d10 (or d20) based system. Long live the d10! Down with the d6!
With a D6 you are breaking down into 16.6% increments.
With a D10 you are breaking down into 10% increments.
With a D20 you are breaking down into 5% increments,
I can understand in a RPG that you would want a greater possible range of results, but in a wargame you generally abstract units down to simple stats since you just need to know if you hit, wound, save, or break.
There's no functional difference between rolling an 11+ on a d20, rolling a 6+ on a d10, or a 4+ on a d6. The dice themselves aren't any more or less random than each other since they have the same odds of rolling within a particular percentile range (as long as you allow for fractions you can't actually roll due to the number of faces on a die). You could play WH40K with a fist full of d12s as long as you doubled all the modifiers and target numbers and it would functionally be the same game with the same chances of success.
2017/10/18 06:41:25
Subject: Oathmark- fantasy mass-battles from Osprey and North Star (plastic dwarf preorders now- FAQ added)
pancakeonions wrote: I'm pretty excited for this. Happy to have access to more plastic goblins!
And d10s, hooray! Much better than d6.
I really don't understand what folks mean by "swingy" d20s. 1-3 on a d6 is the same as 1-10 on a d20. There's no extra "randomness", and the granularity, to my mind, is a plus. You can create much more variability and distinctiveness with a d8 or d10 (or d20) based system. Long live the d10! Down with the d6!
With a D6 you are breaking down into 16.6% increments.
With a D10 you are breaking down into 10% increments.
With a D20 you are breaking down into 5% increments,
I can understand in a RPG that you would want a greater possible range of results, but in a wargame you generally abstract units down to simple stats since you just need to know if you hit, wound, save, or break.
There's no functional difference between rolling an 11+ on a d20, rolling a 6+ on a d10, or a 4+ on a d6. The dice themselves aren't any more or less random than each other since they have the same odds of rolling within a particular percentile range (as long as you allow for fractions you can't actually roll due to the number of faces on a die). You could play WH40K with a fist full of d12s as long as you doubled all the modifiers and target numbers and it would functionally be the same game with the same chances of success.
I dont think that is under dispute, the question is rather if a 5% granularity is actually needed in a wargame?
2017/10/18 07:03:15
Subject: Re:Oathmark- fantasy mass-battles from Osprey and North Star (plastic dwarf preorders now- FAQ added)
Think for something like Infinity? Most people that have played that game would say yes.
It allows that granularity between quality of troops and effectiveness of weapons, and especially when combined with a wider range of stats.
Remember 40k itself used to use dice other than a D6 (for weapon damage) and it's only in recent years that this seems to have been somehow installed as the only true measure of random number generation (perhaps because a lot of the 'big games' - GW, FoW etc. only use a D6). But for anyone that has experienced a wider range of wargames or boardgames, type of dice doesn't really matter.
Agree with Pancakeonions - Think D10s would be perfectly fine.
Anyway - what we have seen so far is very nice! Looking forward to seeing how they make the humans distinctive, especially with the great range of plastic historicals that are available (many of which North Star actually sell from their site)
pancakeonions wrote: I'm pretty excited for this. Happy to have access to more plastic goblins!
And d10s, hooray! Much better than d6.
I really don't understand what folks mean by "swingy" d20s. 1-3 on a d6 is the same as 1-10 on a d20. There's no extra "randomness", and the granularity, to my mind, is a plus. You can create much more variability and distinctiveness with a d8 or d10 (or d20) based system. Long live the d10! Down with the d6!
With a D6 you are breaking down into 16.6% increments.
With a D10 you are breaking down into 10% increments.
With a D20 you are breaking down into 5% increments,
I can understand in a RPG that you would want a greater possible range of results, but in a wargame you generally abstract units down to simple stats since you just need to know if you hit, wound, save, or break.
There's no functional difference between rolling an 11+ on a d20, rolling a 6+ on a d10, or a 4+ on a d6. The dice themselves aren't any more or less random than each other since they have the same odds of rolling within a particular percentile range (as long as you allow for fractions you can't actually roll due to the number of faces on a die). You could play WH40K with a fist full of d12s as long as you doubled all the modifiers and target numbers and it would functionally be the same game with the same chances of success.
I dont think that is under dispute, the question is rather if a 5% granularity is actually needed in a wargame?
I say 'yes' in Skirmish scale and 'probably not' in Mass Battle scale...
2017/10/18 12:41:13
Subject: Oathmark- fantasy mass-battles from Osprey and North Star (plastic dwarf preorders now- FAQ added)
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Looking good, it will be interesting to see how a middle of the road fantasy war game does especially after GW abandoned that niche.
I'd prefer my Dwarves with crossbows or black powder but that's a quibble. Interested in seeing the humans.
Every single one of those three sentences exactly mirror my reaction to the FAQ. GET OUT OF MY HEAD!
Given how cross-compatible these kits look to be with the Frostgrave ones (and how cross compatible the Frostgrave kits are with each other), it'd be really nice to see some sort of regiment-equipping upgrade sprues. Like a sprue with 5 sets of crossbows & arms and 5 sets of rifles & arms. Another sprue with 5 sets of halberds and 5 sets of great weapons. That sort of thing. With the arms being generic enough to fit across the kits, giving us something you could order separately so that you could make a unit of 10 - 20 without needing multiple boxes because that weapon comes two to a sprue.
Heck, they'd probably be useful for conversion past the Frostgrave and Oathmark kits.
2017/10/18 13:33:27
Subject: Oathmark- fantasy mass-battles from Osprey and North Star (plastic dwarf preorders now- FAQ added)
pancakeonions wrote: I'm pretty excited for this. Happy to have access to more plastic goblins!
And d10s, hooray! Much better than d6.
I really don't understand what folks mean by "swingy" d20s. 1-3 on a d6 is the same as 1-10 on a d20. There's no extra "randomness", and the granularity, to my mind, is a plus. You can create much more variability and distinctiveness with a d8 or d10 (or d20) based system. Long live the d10! Down with the d6!
With a D6 you are breaking down into 16.6% increments.
With a D10 you are breaking down into 10% increments.
With a D20 you are breaking down into 5% increments,
I can understand in a RPG that you would want a greater possible range of results, but in a wargame you generally abstract units down to simple stats since you just need to know if you hit, wound, save, or break.
There's no functional difference between rolling an 11+ on a d20, rolling a 6+ on a d10, or a 4+ on a d6. The dice themselves aren't any more or less random than each other since they have the same odds of rolling within a particular percentile range (as long as you allow for fractions you can't actually roll due to the number of faces on a die). You could play WH40K with a fist full of d12s as long as you doubled all the modifiers and target numbers and it would functionally be the same game with the same chances of success.
I dont think that is under dispute, the question is rather if a 5% granularity is actually needed in a wargame?
That's nothing to do with being "swingy", which is a pretty ridiculous thing to say about a d20.
I've always liked a d12 myself. A pretty reasonable amount of granularity and it's essentially like having halfs in a d6 system which everyone is familiar with.
2017/10/18 15:01:21
Subject: Oathmark- fantasy mass-battles from Osprey and North Star (plastic dwarf preorders now- FAQ added)
Perhaps the general discussion about dice types in general should go in some other thread, unless it actually has something to do with the mechanics of this game (which we don't know much about yet).
