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Chances are either he's miss-remembering when quoting the price or he's mistakenly checked the price on the wrong country setting on the GW website.

 Galas wrote:
This is 85 dollars, what are you talking about 135?

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Start-Collecting-Craftworlds-2017

I assume he's talking about the $165 army box which is more expensive due to having a load more stuff in it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:
Chances are either he's miss-remembering when quoting the price or he's mistakenly checked the price on the wrong country setting on the GW website.

Also possible - $140 in Aus.

Either way that would make him so keen to be outraged that he didn't bother to check when something appeared to have gone up in price by more than 50%.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

vaurapung wrote:
So as for the higher prices. Because they can. From a production standpoint prices should have dropped compared to 2008. Im in the usa. The price of plastic (pretty well all models) follows oil prices, preceding oil fluctuations by mere months. And gas is half the price it was 10 years agos. GW has rolled out a few models and they may be trying to recoupe mould cost but now that the price is up it will only go down when supply over reaches demand.

As for recastors people can cry about ip theft but gw is stealing from fans by askig higher prices for models that havnt been reworked or changed for several years. There creative and production cost are already covered but they still insist on price hikes. I watched the prices for eldar nearly double over night, what was it a month ago the the start collecting boxes went from 85 to 135 dollars using no new models. Thats outragous enough so that ill not buy anything from gw and move onto other hobbies.

My army (built over the last 4 years) is outdated and weak, my books have been pushed to the side but my army codex has barely changed if want to play i have to buy all new and different models. Feeding the pig.

Your points are all faulty.

The cost of plastic pellets is such a tiny portion of the cost that it is essentially irrelevant. Machine time, power, wages and the amortised cost of the mould are the big portions of the cost. They certainly haven't halved. Furthermore, your "half the price of ten years ago" (in the US presumably) is simply not true. The current price is about 35% cheaper than 2012 which is the highest it's ever been. It's about 30% cheaper than 2008. However, luxury goods typically do not fluctuate directly with either the exchange rate or commodity prices. The 2012 price of gas is double the 2002 price - GW prices didn't double...

People can charge whatever they want for their IP and it's certainly not theft. You either want it enough to pay for it or you don't. Why does a licensed print of a good artist's work cost hundreds of dollars when it only cost a few dollars to make?

Your start collecting price hike simply doesn't exist.

Overread wrote:Chances are either he's miss-remembering when quoting the price or he's mistakenly checked the price on the wrong country setting on the GW website.

This gets me every time. It's never the same country twice

It does sound sort of plausible because GW's done that kind of thing before with the Eldar (when I started playing ten years ago Dire Avengers were $30 for a ten-man box, today they're $35 for a five-man box containing exactly the same sprues).

That said in the case of the Start Collecting box it is wrong.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
It does sound sort of plausible because GW's done that kind of thing before with the Eldar (when I started playing ten years ago Dire Avengers were $30 for a ten-man box, today they're $35 for a five-man box containing exactly the same sprues).

That's something I did a doubletake on when I started the game up again - first box of troops I bought was like $25 at the FLGS, which was cheaper than I remember them being in 4e...till I realized they had half the guys in them.

I can only swear that about 2 months ago that box went to 135 right when the book was about to be released. (i accept that i was mistaken since someone was nice enough to post a link) I was gonna go in with some one for 3 of them to split models but then the price was hiked so we abandoned it. With no local gw shop i cant keep up with prices good.

Oh and as for ip if your not playing in sponsered tournaments making money with how good you are whats wrong with buying a recast to just set on your shelf. Im not gonna by the mona lisa but ill buy a paper copy of it to hang for decor.

I personally havent but the phantom titan has brought me close to it though.

Oh yeah. The reason i dont have recast is bc i support my flgs and buy my models in person which is twice as important.

vaurapung wrote:
Oh and as for ip if your not playing in sponsered tournaments making money with how good you are whats wrong with buying a recast to just set on your shelf.

You honestly don't see why anyone would object to IP theft?

vaurapung wrote:

Oh and as for ip if your not playing in sponsered tournaments making money with how good you are whats wrong with buying a recast to just set on your shelf.

You might not be making money from it but you are helping the recasters to make money from it

You are also deriving benefit from that IP yourself (otherwise why would you buy it?) whilst not compensating the creator.

That's what it always boils down to - they created something and do not want to give it away freely. You want to benefit from it while giving them nothing. There is no version of you doing that which is moral.

"That's what it always boils down to - they created something and do not want to give it away freely. You want to benefit from it while giving them nothing. There is no version of you doing that which is moral."

Then why is all the hate on recaster but not papercraft and proxy models also.

vaurapung wrote:
Then why is all the hate on recaster but not papercraft and proxy models also.

Because one is selling a literal copy of the model and using IP theft as a business strategy, while the other is making a new work inspired by something in GW's IP without making any money from it?

But the copy can not be used bc it will disqualify you so you still have to buy gw in orfer to play.

vaurapung wrote:
But the copy can not be used bc it will disqualify you so you still have to buy gw in orfer to play.

Do you honestly not understand the difference between IP theft and not giving some arbitrary amount of money to GW?

Its like buying a clone mech mod for vaping bc its 30 dollars vs the original thats 300. Bc its a copper tube with a spring button. Theres no way that should cost 300 dollars.

vaurapung wrote:
Its like buying a clone mech mod for vaping bc its 30 dollars vs the original thats 300. Bc its a copper tube with a spring button. Theres no way that should cost 300 dollars.

Ah yes, back to ignoring things like R&D costs and assuming that there's a "fair" price that you're entitled to, one which conveniently involves you paying a lot less money for something.

vaurapung wrote:
"That's what it always boils down to - they created something and do not want to give it away freely. You want to benefit from it while giving them nothing. There is no version of you doing that which is moral."

Then why is all the hate on recaster but not papercraft and proxy models also.

Recasters are profiting from the illegal theft of GW intellectual property. If you buy from a recaster you are funding criminals.

Making your own papercraft involves no money changing hands, as such you are not funding criminals by making it.

Proxy models are fine so long as they are not sold as GW intellectual property. A company making models that are explicitly designed after things that are GW intellectual property is illegal (look up the Chapterhouse lawsuit). However, using models that do not infringe their intellectual property to stand in for official models is fine.

Its not only that GW is expensive as said.
The problem are the steady hidden price increases.
For instance, 5 Hellblasters are 25 Euro these days.
Have a look at them after half a year. I guess they will be 28 to 30 Euro.

So casting my own would be fine.? Or if a recaster could prove he is a non profit. And thats dofferent how. I thought the issue is that your not purchasing from gw not that your purchasing from someone else. And you cant use stand ins in a tourny either so back to square one, how are stand ins or bandai models or hasbro models or recaste different.

When you buy a GW model then you are supporting the research, development, casting, production, shipping, importing, taxes and whole support structure that brings that model to your hands. If you buy from your local model shop you're also supporting that shops upkeep - wages, rent, rates, tax - and if you play you're likely also supporting the local playscene by helping keep that store open.

Furthermore the creator of that work is being paid for by what you buy; their wages come from the fact that GW can pay them and make a profit; and if the designer works well then its continued payment for more models from them. It's not just a one-time payment this is peoples day to day bread and butter money that puts food on the table, a roof over their head and supports their family.


When you buy a recast model all you are supporting is the recaster. The recaster isn't putting a huge investment in; they've got the machine and the moulds and that's it. They don't have to design the mode, make it, part it, design a sprue or any of that - they simply copy-cat that whole process and steal a lions-share of profits generated by its sale. Plus that money isn't going back into the hobby in any way; its not supporting the business, in fact you are leaching money out of it.
As a luxury good you don't "need" it and whilst miniatures are not dirt-cheap the savings on a recast over an official are such that you could just wait and save for a bit longer and get the model officially - thus you are most certainly leaching sales out. IF recast buying became common then that increases the amount of leaching.

An alternative sculpt, whilst not paying money into GW's pocket, is simply market competition; the company producing such is still part of the overall hobby structure. They are still designing and producing a product. It's no different to deciding that you'd rather buy Privateer Press models or Infinity.


You can make all the arguments you want, but in the end most of them will boil down to the fact that you want to pay less for something and that you're not all that concerned about a "Big rich company" that makes " too much profit" in your opinion. Most "but its ok" arguments also tend to hinge on the idea that the impact is tiny; that the lost sales are too small to be noticed - or to have any impact. Which is basically ignoring the fact that clearly there IS profit to be made in a serious way otherwise the recasters wouldn't bother.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Its not only that GW is expensive as said.
The problem are the steady hidden price increases.
For instance, 5 Hellblasters are 25 Euro these days.
Have a look at them after half a year. I guess they will be 28 to 30 Euro.

If you want Hellblasters, you're better off with Dark Imperium models. You can pick up a squad of 5 for about £10 on eBay. Note these are official models (check it's a reputable seller) that are from a Dark Imperium set that has been legally purchased from GW, which is very different from a recaster.

Anyway, back to the debate. There are two sides to this all. A moral argument and a legal argument. I laid out the legal argument for why you shouldn't use recasters, and Overread in the post above laid out a solid moral argument against them.

I think one the many 'issues' with 40k is the 'buy in' cost to get even a small playable force, as whilst ongoing purchases are still at GW somewhat premium prices its on a par with video games or other 'geek' hobbys

I don't even think recasting helps (the legal/moral element aside) as even good Resin is usually more prep work than GW current lego-a-like plastics so getting a whole knock off army is going to be quite the timesink and you'd most likely be better off going legit on a time/money basis, and of course all china resin is laced with fatal nerve agents by GW super-ninja's...FACT

I'm totally against recasting.
Proxy models have a bad taste at the battlefield.

 wuestenfux wrote:
I'm totally against recasting.
Proxy models have a bad taste at the battlefield.

When you spend 300$ on models for gakky finecast and they ALL broke insde 200$ of FOAM make to KEEP THEM SAFE, send GW a picture and they say "oh well" you say F&^% you to GW and go Recast... And then when those Recasts are 1/3 the cost AND better materials... BETTER MATERIAL for less.....

How can anyone be against recasts? If or when GW has all their models in nice plastic, sure i'll be ok with people against Recasts, but until then, i'll never tell someone its bad to buy recasts.

Edit: With that said, you SHOULD help your local store, if your buying 100% all recasts and then piggy back riding off a local, thats just being an A$$.

Edit: Spelling, English bad

A Proxy model isn't a recast. A Proxy is a model used as something else, so by definition a recast isn't a Proxy model because is the same model just done by a different person.

3rd party models are Proxies. I don't have a problem with that, they are legitimate products done by people that has put effor on it. Yeah their work is highly derivative in most cases, but isn't GW too?

The legitimacy of proxying depends what the intention is for me, 3rd party models which you have converted and painted to fit in the universe? Fantastic, brings a little more variety than the bog standard stuff you see every day.

Plastic army men riding kinder egg toys you claim represent whatever the overpowered flavour of the month is? That's just not cricket...

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
I think one the many 'issues' with 40k is the 'buy in' cost to get even a small playable force, as whilst ongoing purchases are still at GW somewhat premium prices its on a par with video games or other 'geek' hobbys

I'd say the buy in is the same as video games. A new console is around £300. Add in the monthly or yearly subscription for online play, which gives you some free games along the way, and you're talking £350, and say maybe a game a month (though more likely no games for months, then 4 or 5 in the one month) and the costs aren't much different from buying the rulebook/starter set and a reasonable sized army and some hobby supplies, with a box or two of models a month, and maybe the odd paint here or there. Obviously, people might have different incomes or hobby practises, but that's the same with any hobby. I find myself spending a good amount on models at a time, especially if I'm doing a project that's going to require a lot of parts from different kits, but then I'll spend a couple of weeks, or months, getting that lot finished. GW stuff is expensive, to me, but when I compare to some other hobbies I have taken part in, it's not more or less if you look at it objectively. Of course, I do tend to stick to spending within my means, I might spend all of my disposable income on stuff, but that's it. I'm not going to get myself in debt for little plastic men just because I want a lot of them for an army.

craggy wrote:

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
I think one the many 'issues' with 40k is the 'buy in' cost to get even a small playable force, as whilst ongoing purchases are still at GW somewhat premium prices its on a par with video games or other 'geek' hobbys

I'd say the buy in is the same as video games. A new console is around £300. Add in the monthly or yearly subscription for online play, which gives you some free games along the way, and you're talking £350, and say maybe a game a month (though more likely no games for months, then 4 or 5 in the one month) and the costs aren't much different from buying the rulebook/starter set and a reasonable sized army and some hobby supplies, with a box or two of models a month, and maybe the odd paint here or there. Obviously, people might have different incomes or hobby practises, but that's the same with any hobby. I find myself spending a good amount on models at a time, especially if I'm doing a project that's going to require a lot of parts from different kits, but then I'll spend a couple of weeks, or months, getting that lot finished. GW stuff is expensive, to me, but when I compare to some other hobbies I have taken part in, it's not more or less if you look at it objectively. Of course, I do tend to stick to spending within my means, I might spend all of my disposable income on stuff, but that's it. I'm not going to get myself in debt for little plastic men just because I want a lot of them for an army.

This is a great way to look at is, with 300 starting cost then 60 per game (unless older or used lets say you want some new and old) your looking at 500$+ to play just 3 games.

I can buy a full army for that cost (sure not all factions can you have a 500$ army) but 1500pts is well enough to play with, the BRB is free, so you only need the codex. Heck even the SOB 1000pt army buddle is 500$, thats the most costly army there is other than hordes.

the sticking point comes when you compare 40k to other games (even GW ones like BB or Sharespire) entry level costs, many roll in at the £100 which is far less wallet shock than £300, 40k really needs a supported 'skirmish' format or a Shadespire type game, I'm discouting Necromunda as the Gangs dont overlap well with 40k

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
the sticking point comes when you compare 40k to other games (even GW ones like BB or Sharespire) entry level costs, many roll in at the £100 which is far less wallet shock than £300, 40k really needs a supported 'skirmish' format or a Shadespire type game, I'm discouting Necromunda as the Gangs dont overlap well with 40k

there is shadow wars

they could and probably should support that format more.

yep Shadow Wars was an odd one felt very fillery between 7th and 8th

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
the sticking point comes when you compare 40k to other games (even GW ones like BB or Sharespire) entry level costs, many roll in at the £100 which is far less wallet shock than £300, 40k really needs a supported 'skirmish' format or a Shadespire type game, I'm discouting Necromunda as the Gangs dont overlap well with 40k

Start Collecting box, maybe another unit or an HQ and the free starter rules pdf? Be enough to run a few small games and get a feel for the basics. You could probably even throw in a Codex or Index there if you want. Might not be great for some armies but not an unreasonable comparison to some boxed games.