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Made in gb
Long-Range Ultramarine Land Speeder Pilot





UK

 Nazrak wrote:
I totally understand there’s a place for the codices, for new players and completists, but I’d much prefer something more streamlined and conducive to use during games.

That's why I use my codex when deciding on units to field and buy but use BattleScribe (with the codex open on the stratagems page) during a game.

   
Made in gb
Huge Hierodule





 Brother Castor wrote:
 Nazrak wrote:
I totally understand there’s a place for the codices, for new players and completists, but I’d much prefer something more streamlined and conducive to use during games.

That's why I use my codex when deciding on units to field and buy but use BattleScribe (with the codex open on the stratagems page) during a game.


I actually prefer the data cards to the codex for Strats. That way I can put away ones that will never come up in the game, making it easier to remember the ones I can use haha
   
Made in gb
Long-Range Ultramarine Land Speeder Pilot





UK

Stux wrote:
I actually prefer the data cards to the codex for Strats. That way I can put away ones that will never come up in the game, making it easier to remember the ones I can use haha

Don't give me a reason to 'need' the cards!

   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




JohnnyHell wrote:Good luck getting GW to just drop guaranteed income from every player. Not gonna happen. They brought Codexes in now they’re here to stay. As of AoS we have v2 and v3 army books so we know they can double dip if launching a new selection of units, and as of 40K 7th we know they can also do Campaign books to grab cash from multiple faction players at once. Selling books is good margin and doesn’t eat into production capacity in Nottingham.

Honestly, yeah, free rules would be best for players and the game. But GW is still run by accountants for their shareholders, so turning off a lucrative revenue stream will just not happen.


wuestenfux wrote:GW is hooked on hard copies. It brings them a lot of money by selling codices for 32.50 Euro or more. This is part of their business model.


I don't see how this is a "lucritive revenue stream". They don't make many books, they sell out fast because of limited production run. Also they sell "Collector Editions" in small quantaties. So how is this a revenue stream? Quarenteed income? Hmmm, you might have a point in limited runs now. I never thought of that. Thanks JohnnyHell. That makes sense now.

Tyel wrote:If people keep buying the codexes in large numbers why would they change?


Ah but GW did change eh?

Thing is what is GW revenue stream? Is it selling books or plastic crack? The books should be for a "loss" so more miniatures are sold. Just like how Microsoft takes a "loss" on the Xbox but make up for it from the games. Maybe I am wrong, but I know back in the Kirby days I would have bought so much more miniatures if it wasn't for the books being so bloody expensive. Same goes for now that I am older and have other expenses to pay.

Maybe I am in the minority but I am sure if I had free codices I would be collecting almost every army. Since the books cost as much as minis just like it is now, it's either books or minis. I want the minis. If I need the books I can't buy the minis then. So I just get none.

Then again, maybe I am not GW target audiance. Just like how I don't go out and buy a Yatch, or Benz or a Rollex, I am not a loss sale for GW. So I guess it's me not GW. :(

Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.

Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?

Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".  
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





a book is 50 bucks, if you can't afford that how many more minis are they going to get out of you? To put it in prespective, a codex is the cost of a pack of tac marines.

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Really what I think alot of people want is a players edition of the BRB and Codex that have the rules needed for the game without any of the repetitive fluff thats the same as previous editions.

I already have enough mini's etc to carry around to a game, i dont need to be carrying an additional 300+pages of fluff to games, across multiple books.

Battlescribe has it's issues but it's achieving 70% of what you need to play the game the rest you have cards for or can memorize.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




BrianDavion wrote:
a book is 50 bucks, if you can't afford that how many more minis are they going to get out of you? To put it in prespective, a codex is the cost of a pack of tac marines.


Buying a codex requires a certain level of commitment that excludes convenience buying. It's no longer *just* the one box, it's that and a codex. Besides, people tend to have hobby allowances to keep from buying too much, so instead of spending my $100 on one box and a book, I could get 2 boxes of something else. In the long run it's probably negligible, but in the short term it's off putting, and probably drives fringe customers away.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ice_can wrote:
Really what I think alot of people want is a players edition of the BRB and Codex that have the rules needed for the game without any of the repetitive fluff thats the same as previous editions.


Yup. Just give me the rules so I can play. Fingers crossed that the official army builder app will include the rules. (if/when it comes out)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/26 20:57:13


 
   
Made in ca
Frenzied Berserker Terminator





Canada

Certainly not by removing my right to own the information I've purchased.

Also, codex is not invalid. By the "SW" logic ALL codices are obsolete the moment there is an errata or a CA.

I pay money for books to own outright. You may pay money for access rights if you wish, but let's keep that optional eh?



Gets along better with animals... Go figure. 
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





Dandelion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
a book is 50 bucks, if you can't afford that how many more minis are they going to get out of you? To put it in prespective, a codex is the cost of a pack of tac marines.


Buying a codex requires a certain level of commitment that excludes convenience buying. It's no longer *just* the one box, it's that and a codex. Besides, people tend to have hobby allowances to keep from buying too much, so instead of spending my $100 on one box and a book, I could get 2 boxes of something else. In the long run it's probably negligible, but in the short term it's off putting, and probably drives fringe customers away.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ice_can wrote:
Really what I think alot of people want is a players edition of the BRB and Codex that have the rules needed for the game without any of the repetitive fluff thats the same as previous editions.


Yup. Just give me the rules so I can play. Fingers crossed that the official army builder app will include the rules. (if/when it comes out)


Maybe they should make paint free? and hand out a free tube of glue with each model box?

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in gb
Sure Space Wolves Land Raider Pilot





Freezing to death outside the Fang

TBH I think the digital editions really suck, they're just such a pain to use compared to a physical book. You have to keep switching your device back on each time you want to look at it, then enter the passcode (or turn off the sleep function and drain your battery quickly and run the risk of it running out mid game) and you can't just open to the page you want, you have to click through until you find the page you want and if a model's rules are split across two or more pages that aren't next to each other in the book you have to keep going back and forth, which takes ages and really slows down gameplay for you and your opponent. With a book you can just pick it up and open it to the page you want and if you need to look at non adjacent pages you can just use your fingers to hold the different pages open. You also don;t have the added problem of potentially running out of battery during a game. Books are also far nicer to read. I'd never read the fluff of a digital codex as the ios and android book reading software is absolutely awful for the layout of the codecies/battletomes.
Yes I'm disappointed the wolves book got botched but I'd still much rather have a physical book than an Ebook, especially as GW charges the same prices for them.

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Made in us
Implaccable Grey Knight Paladin




San Diego, CA

BrianDavion wrote:
a book is 50 bucks, if you can't afford that how many more minis are they going to get out of you? To put it in prespective, a codex is the cost of a pack of tac marines.

That’s the point that I was going to make, but with the opposite argument: if you don’t buy the book, maybe they can sell you an extra squad of tac marines. This whole “well how will they pay their rules writers??” is dumb; GW is a corporation and all the money goes into a big pot that they pay their employees with. It’s not like model designers get paid out of the miniatures sales fund or the sales of dice get burned as an offering to the dice gods, it’s all GW money regardless of source.

While making rules free would lose some sales it wouldn’t lose all; some people would still buy the books for their army and some people would buy extra minis instead, offsetting the losses there. But even if the above weren’t true it would still be a good move because any competitive game needs the ability to be patched to improve, and right now hardcopy releases are holding 40k back from that. If updates enable 40k to become a better game then it becomes a game people want to start playing, and GW grows their player base resulting in a net of more sales and more profits. Put another way, a new $500 army covers the loss of 10 codex sales to existing players. The goal should be to get new players into the hobby, not keep milking the ones they have because new players are the only way for significant growth and you’re only getting new players if your game is worth playing.

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




BrianDavion wrote:


Maybe they should make paint free? and hand out a free tube of glue with each model box?


Well, if the paint changed color every month after you bought it then maybe it should be free... 'cause that's not the product I purchased.

Besides, no one is asking for free codexes, we're asking for free rules. You know, like how the core rules are free online?
So why not just have a document online that they can update whenever they want, because the players didn't pay for it and so there's no risk of invalidating anyone's purchases.
Why do you think the FAQs are set-up bi-annually? Because people were mad their brand new IG codex was invalid 2 weeks after release. Now look at the Space Wolves Codex, had the whole thing been online their would have been 0 problems adding in the sagas.

Long story short, physical rules are just clunky, and at this point I'd rather pay for updatable rules than a hard copy.

P.S. Your whole argument falls apart when this exists:
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/AoS-App-2-Apple-2018
   
Made in gb
Long-Range Ultramarine Land Speeder Pilot





UK


I've not played AOS so I didn't know that existed.

What would the WH40K equivalent be (in terms of rules)? The Battle Primer and all the datasheets from all the codexes? What about the faction-specific rules and stratagems, would they be in there too?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/27 09:05:46


   
Made in gb
Huge Hierodule





 Brother Castor wrote:

I've not played AOS so I didn't know that existed.

What would the WH40K equivalent be (in terms of rules)? The Battle Primer and all the datasheets from all the codexes? What about the faction-specific rules and stratagems, would they be in there too?


It would just be the Datasheets. You'd need to buy the book for Strats, relics, psychic powers, and warlord traits.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran






Ice_can wrote:
Really what I think alot of people want is a players edition of the BRB and Codex that have the rules needed for the game without any of the repetitive fluff thats the same as previous editions.

I already have enough mini's etc to carry around to a game, i dont need to be carrying an additional 300+pages of fluff to games, across multiple books.

Battlescribe has it's issues but it's achieving 70% of what you need to play the game the rest you have cards for or can memorize.

Yeah, hard agree with all this. I'd be nice to see something similar to BS put together that's an official GW version, allowing you to essentially create your own custom set of Datasheets for the units in your army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That said, I'd theoretically prefer a hard copy, but not a whopping great hardback book. I miss the 3rd ed. Codices sometimes…

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/27 10:29:09


 
   
Made in gb
Long-Range Ultramarine Land Speeder Pilot





UK

Stux wrote:
 Brother Castor wrote:

I've not played AOS so I didn't know that existed.

What would the WH40K equivalent be (in terms of rules)? The Battle Primer and all the datasheets from all the codexes? What about the faction-specific rules and stratagems, would they be in there too?


It would just be the Datasheets. You'd need to buy the book for Strats, relics, psychic powers, and warlord traits.

Right - so not much different to buying a the latest miniatures that come with datasheets and downloading the Battle Primer, just in an app. GW won't stop selling rules all the time their customers will pay for them. Although I'm happy to pay for rules, if it wasn't for BattleScribe allowing me to manage the points adjustments I think I'd be less happy. If GW do produce an app for WH40K that's what needs to be in it, and I think BattleScribe has done GW a huge favour in the meantime.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/02/05 18:38:36


   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





 Nazrak wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Really what I think alot of people want is a players edition of the BRB and Codex that have the rules needed for the game without any of the repetitive fluff thats the same as previous editions.

I already have enough mini's etc to carry around to a game, i dont need to be carrying an additional 300+pages of fluff to games, across multiple books.

Battlescribe has it's issues but it's achieving 70% of what you need to play the game the rest you have cards for or can memorize.

Yeah, hard agree with all this. I'd be nice to see something similar to BS put together that's an official GW version, allowing you to essentially create your own custom set of Datasheets for the units in your army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That said, I'd theoretically prefer a hard copy, but not a whopping great hardback book. I miss the 3rd ed. Codices sometimes…


Having aahrd cover codex is nice sometimes but a pain othertimes. in an ideal world they'd offer a "collection edition" that is the hardcover we have now, and a "Gamers edition" that is black and white and a very low budget "just the facts ma'am" version. that said it proably wou;dn't work as the end result would be to increase the price of BOTH options due to losses of economy of scale. If we're going to pay 50 bucks anyway, I'd rather a nice crisp hard cover with pretty colour pictures.

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




I have a couple authors that are friends, who have told me that..

1. Electronic out sell dead tree by around a 3-1 margin. This might see some variation in game books as are a reference material.

2. This is expected to increase. The money you save for buying a reader/tablet is very quickly made up, and readers/tablet are cheap.

3. Research shows most people don't even read on readers or tablets. They read on their phones.

At some point in the future, we seem to be heading to where the Epub is going to cost a smaller fraction of the Print book cost. When that happens, I suspect that you will see a massive rework in people's spending habits on Codex.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




UK

Reemule don't forget the novel market is very different. E-readers and such shine for novels because you don't flip back and forth page to page; you are turning one page to the next for pretty much the whole story with perhaps one or two reference points (eg map or character list).

That in itself makes e-readers; tablets and phones more ideal. Plus you only need to see a few sentences at a time. As long as the refresh rate is good enough for you scroll at a good pace you can keep reading without pause.


Reference books are totally different as you're flip flicking back and forth all the time; plus you often need to see certain blocks of information as a whole not in parts (so a tiny screen can be a huge issue).



Also the publishing market is a bit odd at present. The big publishers are still selling well for hard copies; but getting into that line of publishing is harder; a lot more are now going self published on e-books so that has an immediate impact on the market surveys if you include all the self published material.

A Blog in Miniature - now featuring reviews of many new Black Library books (latest Novellas) 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 Overread wrote:
Reemule don't forget the novel market is very different. E-readers and such shine for novels because you don't flip back and forth page to page; you are turning one page to the next for pretty much the whole story with perhaps one or two reference points (eg map or character list).

That in itself makes e-readers; tablets and phones more ideal. Plus you only need to see a few sentences at a time. As long as the refresh rate is good enough for you scroll at a good pace you can keep reading without pause.


Reference books are totally different as you're flip flicking back and forth all the time; plus you often need to see certain blocks of information as a whole not in parts (so a tiny screen can be a huge issue).



Also the publishing market is a bit odd at present. The big publishers are still selling well for hard copies; but getting into that line of publishing is harder; a lot more are now going self published on e-books so that has an immediate impact on the market surveys if you include all the self published material.


I disagree. An my reasons are...

First I don't see people using Codex books and Rules at the table. I see people using the old Battle Primer, I see people using printed off Data cards, I see people using Battlescribe print outs. While I'm sure there are people using print books in game situations, This seems to taper off...

leading to the second point, that GW perhaps inadvertently is encouraging this.. And the way they are doing this is with PDF Faq's. While I'm not trying to open the Space Wolf Dex, but for almost each and every dex, you now need to have those on hand or accessible to be playing. And it seems to be a slippery slope to... well I;ll just play with the PDF I happen to have of the Dex also..

And the Third point is 8th edition its self.. 8th edition returned a huge number of players. (should be pretty evident) and as many of those players were away, they learned or picked up other systems. And I believe they created some demand on certain modernization, ease of use in the game. I think that GW is bending towards those asks. And many of them have an expectation on using more online resources. Army builders,online faqs and rules, and such.

As another observation, GW arranged the rules in a terrible fashion. Even the battle primer (best of the lot on clear rules for 8th) is not arranged in a clear fashion. While I think there is value in the idea that your going to have pages of fluff and photographs and painting in books, I don't care to have it. I'd rather to have a clear out line of the rules with the best index possible, and more information in a logical fashion.

   
Made in sg
Fresh-Faced New User




 Overread wrote:
Reemule don't forget the novel market is very different. E-readers and such shine for novels because you don't flip back and forth page to page; you are turning one page to the next for pretty much the whole story with perhaps one or two reference points (eg map or character list).

That in itself makes e-readers; tablets and phones more ideal. Plus you only need to see a few sentences at a time. As long as the refresh rate is good enough for you scroll at a good pace you can keep reading without pause.


Reference books are totally different as you're flip flicking back and forth all the time; plus you often need to see certain blocks of information as a whole not in parts (so a tiny screen can be a huge issue).



Also the publishing market is a bit odd at present. The big publishers are still selling well for hard copies; but getting into that line of publishing is harder; a lot more are now going self published on e-books so that has an immediate impact on the market surveys if you include all the self published material.


I exclusively buy, read and use books on electronic media now, including my GW rules, and I can tell you that, with a good tablet and app, along with the quality of epub3s GW is putting out now, the e-reader beats print media even for reference books. For example, I can locate a specific datasheet or rule page in any given book I own faster than someone can pick up the correct book off the table and locate the page.

This is, however, very much dependent on owning a good enough tablet and being the sort that is comfortable having the thing around constantly.
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




Dandelion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
a book is 50 bucks, if you can't afford that how many more minis are they going to get out of you? To put it in prespective, a codex is the cost of a pack of tac marines.


Buying a codex requires a certain level of commitment that excludes convenience buying. It's no longer *just* the one box, it's that and a codex. Besides, people tend to have hobby allowances to keep from buying too much, so instead of spending my $100 on one box and a book, I could get 2 boxes of something else. In the long run it's probably negligible, but in the short term it's off putting, and probably drives fringe customers away.


Thank you so much for this.


BrianDavion wrote:
Dandelion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
a book is 50 bucks, if you can't afford that how many more minis are they going to get out of you? To put it in prespective, a codex is the cost of a pack of tac marines.


Buying a codex requires a certain level of commitment that excludes convenience buying. It's no longer *just* the one box, it's that and a codex. Besides, people tend to have hobby allowances to keep from buying too much, so instead of spending my $100 on one box and a book, I could get 2 boxes of something else. In the long run it's probably negligible, but in the short term it's off putting, and probably drives fringe customers away.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ice_can wrote:
Really what I think alot of people want is a players edition of the BRB and Codex that have the rules needed for the game without any of the repetitive fluff thats the same as previous editions.


Yup. Just give me the rules so I can play. Fingers crossed that the official army builder app will include the rules. (if/when it comes out)


Maybe they should make paint free? and hand out a free tube of glue with each model box?


So you have no reply to his answer and you change the subject. Way to go there. This is a debate. You disagree with what I said. A great explanation was given. All you can do is mock it? How about replying to what he actually said. I am not a mind reader. I don't know what you ment by this comment except for trying to mock or shame which I am sure is against rule #1.

So do you have a reply to this excelent response?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/27 20:41:56


Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.

Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?

Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".  
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





Davor wrote:
Dandelion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
a book is 50 bucks, if you can't afford that how many more minis are they going to get out of you? To put it in prespective, a codex is the cost of a pack of tac marines.


Buying a codex requires a certain level of commitment that excludes convenience buying. It's no longer *just* the one box, it's that and a codex. Besides, people tend to have hobby allowances to keep from buying too much, so instead of spending my $100 on one box and a book, I could get 2 boxes of something else. In the long run it's probably negligible, but in the short term it's off putting, and probably drives fringe customers away.


Thank you so much for this.


BrianDavion wrote:
Dandelion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
a book is 50 bucks, if you can't afford that how many more minis are they going to get out of you? To put it in prespective, a codex is the cost of a pack of tac marines.


Buying a codex requires a certain level of commitment that excludes convenience buying. It's no longer *just* the one box, it's that and a codex. Besides, people tend to have hobby allowances to keep from buying too much, so instead of spending my $100 on one box and a book, I could get 2 boxes of something else. In the long run it's probably negligible, but in the short term it's off putting, and probably drives fringe customers away.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ice_can wrote:
Really what I think alot of people want is a players edition of the BRB and Codex that have the rules needed for the game without any of the repetitive fluff thats the same as previous editions.


Yup. Just give me the rules so I can play. Fingers crossed that the official army builder app will include the rules. (if/when it comes out)


Maybe they should make paint free? and hand out a free tube of glue with each model box?


So you have no reply to his answer and you change the subject. Way to go there. This is a debate. You disagree with what I said. A great explanation was given. All you can do is mock it? How about replying to what he actually said. I am not a mind reader. I don't know what you ment by this comment except for trying to mock or shame which I am sure is against rule #1.

So do you have a reply to this excelent response?


Ok let me explain since my point apparently was missed by you. I go out and buy a box of space Marines. I can't just open the box and immediatly use them, snap tight space Marines aren't a thing. This means you have to buy glue, also if you want to field a painted army, you have to buy paints and brushes (figure about5 pots of paint fot 5 bucks Canadian? and then a handful of cheap brushes for about 15 bucks) sure not everyone uses a painted army, but you also get the basic core rules for a unit in it's box now, and the basic basic core rules for 40k are free online now, So yeah if I bought a box of intercessors and my buddy bought a box of death guard we could play without buying a codex, our options are just much more limited. to get into the game in a serious way though? yeah there's a basic cost of entry. And when you consider the amount of money spent on a typical 40k army a 50 dollar codex is chicken feed.

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in gb
Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






UK

 Brother Castor wrote:
Nobody would buy a fluff-only codex. I like hardcopy codexes, and GW's current strategy for balancing the game by only changing the points not the datasheets means that a hardcopy codex + BattleScribe works well for me.


I would. I have bought fluff only books from GW and other before and would do so again - I only really bought Shield of Baal and several other campaign packs for the fluff section.

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Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





 Mr Morden wrote:
 Brother Castor wrote:
Nobody would buy a fluff-only codex. I like hardcopy codexes, and GW's current strategy for balancing the game by only changing the points not the datasheets means that a hardcopy codex + BattleScribe works well for me.


I would. I have bought fluff only books from GW and other before and would do so again - I only really bought Shield of Baal and several other campaign packs for the fluff section.


the fact that black library is as sucessful as it is suggests that "YES VIRGINA THERE IS A DEMAND FOR FLUFF"

In fact I'd argue that, despite their vocalness here, the "I don't care about the fluff I just play the game" mind set is proably in a minority among 40k fans.

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




BrianDavion wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 Brother Castor wrote:
Nobody would buy a fluff-only codex. I like hardcopy codexes, and GW's current strategy for balancing the game by only changing the points not the datasheets means that a hardcopy codex + BattleScribe works well for me.


I would. I have bought fluff only books from GW and other before and would do so again - I only really bought Shield of Baal and several other campaign packs for the fluff section.


the fact that black library is as sucessful as it is suggests that "YES VIRGINA THERE IS A DEMAND FOR FLUFF"

In fact I'd argue that, despite their vocalness here, the "I don't care about the fluff I just play the game" mind set is proably in a minority among 40k fans.

It's not that we don't care it's that it gets annoying buying the same throwaway fluff with every codex and being forced to carry around 200 unnecessary pages to a game.
Heck GW has done what I would want a proper codex to look like before with the Mont'ka expansion for 7th a rules book and fluff book not a combined 300 page book that I have to carry to every game.

Do you really need the first 100 ish pages of every codex at your game? It's like randomly deciding to pack a black library book ontop of your codex for every game just because you might read it at home some time.
   
Made in us
Implaccable Grey Knight Paladin




San Diego, CA

A printable PDF that has some fancy formatting would be fine, GW could sell us army-specific 3-ring binders.

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
 
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





Ice_can wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 Brother Castor wrote:
Nobody would buy a fluff-only codex. I like hardcopy codexes, and GW's current strategy for balancing the game by only changing the points not the datasheets means that a hardcopy codex + BattleScribe works well for me.


I would. I have bought fluff only books from GW and other before and would do so again - I only really bought Shield of Baal and several other campaign packs for the fluff section.


the fact that black library is as sucessful as it is suggests that "YES VIRGINA THERE IS A DEMAND FOR FLUFF"

In fact I'd argue that, despite their vocalness here, the "I don't care about the fluff I just play the game" mind set is proably in a minority among 40k fans.

It's not that we don't care it's that it gets annoying buying the same throwaway fluff with every codex and being forced to carry around 200 unnecessary pages to a game.
Heck GW has done what I would want a proper codex to look like before with the Mont'ka expansion for 7th a rules book and fluff book not a combined 300 page book that I have to carry to every game.

Do you really need the first 100 ish pages of every codex at your game? It's like randomly deciding to pack a black library book ontop of your codex for every game just because you might read it at home some time.


Actually I useally take a novel with me whenever I go out in case I have to wait around or something, but I do get your point

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in ca
Frenzied Berserker Terminator





Canada

I'd also like to chip in that when I play 40k I usually just bring my codex and the little paper rulebook from the starter box. I'm not sure what all these claims of clutter are about.

And I agree with Davion. Noncommittal players are a bummer. I just gave my buddy a load of minis because he showed an interest and was pretty okay at painting. Haven't had a match in months! So, kinda frustrating. I don't think a lower entry point into the game should be looked at as an incentive for new players, honestly the starter kits we have now are pretty excellent. If a lower cost hobby was the goal, the pursuit of that endeavor should not take place for the benefit of new players, but rather for us veterans. We are the ones who have been collecting thousands of dollars worth of toys. That being said now, the start collecting boxes are kind of for us grognards. They have no rules or extra gubbins, just a great deal on models that appeals to every collection.

If you wanted GW to actually enrich the hobby the answer would not be to take things away from customers for the sake of cost expediency, but rather to add value to your line by providing more opportunities to save money on bundled models. I would probably throw money at a $100can 'keep collecting' box. To use SM as an example a 10 man Dev Squad, with a Landspeeder or maybe 3 bikers would probably sell like hot cakes. Eldar Keep Collecting box, 10 Guardians, 3 Windriders and 8 Dire Avengers. I could keep going...



Gets along better with animals... Go figure. 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




BrianDavion wrote:
[Ok let me explain since my point apparently was missed by you. I go out and buy a box of space Marines. I can't just open the box and immediatly use them, snap tight space Marines aren't a thing. This means you have to buy glue, also if you want to field a painted army, you have to buy paints and brushes (figure about5 pots of paint fot 5 bucks Canadian? and then a handful of cheap brushes for about 15 bucks) sure not everyone uses a painted army, but you also get the basic core rules for a unit in it's box now, and the basic basic core rules for 40k are free online now, So yeah if I bought a box of intercessors and my buddy bought a box of death guard we could play without buying a codex, our options are just much more limited. to get into the game in a serious way though? yeah there's a basic cost of entry. And when you consider the amount of money spent on a typical 40k army a 50 dollar codex is chicken feed.


Thank you very much for your explanation. Greatly appreciated. I rather get minis than books. I have been buying codices for a while and it's basically same old same old. Same fluff with maybe a new sentence or two added in. So since I already have the fluff basically just wanting the new rules and points is all that is needed. I am in the hobby for the minis. So basically what I see is paying $50 just for new points and rules seems like such a waste when that money can be going to new minis.

This is plastic crack after all. So buying more minis, keeps on buying more minis. Buying a book takes away from buying the minis. I could have bought the new Tau minis, or new Chaos but I don't want to spend $100 on a 2 books that have fluff just seems a waste when I already have it and just want the rules/points. That could have been $100 of minis instead. My answer is not any more wrong than your answer. We are both looking at the hobby at a different way.

While in the end the money is chicken feed. Starting off is not chicken feed. Again you look at it as "playing the game" I am looking at it as "collecting minis, painting and modelling them now and eventually playing them later." So buying a book is just not my sort of fun. Maybe it is for you.

Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.

Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?

Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".  
   
 
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