Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 darkcloak wrote:

Reemule wrote:
Also what is the basis behind the GW taking this away? I have them all downloaded, stored on my NAS at home, uploaded onto my online cloud (drop box, and another place) and then also they are in my dump file I keep on my Jump drive I keep in the fireproof safe, and then I actually have copies on my Tablet, and my phone.

GW couldn't get them from me if it wanted to. And I'm fairly sure that between all this they will out survive me. And Waay more durable than any book ever created.

That claim seems pretty outlandish. A quick Google search says that the oldest surviving books date from 3000BC to 1400AD. Is your existential property going to be found by Alien colonists thousands of years from now? Anecdotal evidence time. There are three bookstores withing a 5km radius of where I live. Any one of them has a shelf of antique books you aren't allowed to touch unless you buy them. Number of antique computer software stores? Zero.

Cloud-sharing is all fine and well, but who owns the server? You or a corporation?

In 2K years GW's epub codex's will exist in some data storage somewhere still. Just the way computers work.

And I don't care who owns the server. I care I still have access to my data. That why I have 2 cloud sites. Not a big deal.

And there arn't antique computer stores cause they are not needed. Pretty much everything is archived somewhere if you needed to find it.

I think you have a pretty good viewpoint and it works for you, but claiming software will outlast books is just silly. I'm sure you feel confident that you will be able to enjoy your purchases over time but at the end of the day I still have a book on my shelf.

What's the price on the Mordheim book these days? $400? Will your cloud file be worth as much in ten years? No, it will be worth a few dollars at best.

I have a copy of Daggerfall on my shelf. Can't play it because I can't run msDOS on a Windows 10. Hell, I can hardly run it on my old XP! I mean, yeah I own it and I could probably keep it for years but... Is it worth anything?

 darkcloak wrote:

I have a copy of Daggerfall on my shelf. Can't play it because I can't run msDOS on a Windows 10. Hell, I can hardly run it on my old XP! I mean, yeah I own it and I could probably keep it for years but... Is it worth anything?

Get DOSbox.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 darkcloak wrote:

I have a copy of Daggerfall on my shelf. Can't play it because I can't run msDOS on a Windows 10. Hell, I can hardly run it on my old XP! I mean, yeah I own it and I could probably keep it for years but... Is it worth anything?

Get DOSbox.

I do have a DOSbox on my XP! Doesn't make it any easier to run, lol! I can hardly even remember the command line to open the drive! If I really really wanted, yes I could play Daggerfall. I just don't feel like relearning DOS commands to do so. If Daggerfall was just a book though, I could go read it right now.

You know, I think I know why this topic is silly. All the ups and downs of each medium can apply equally to both. Well, aside from the ownership thing.

Books are expensive. So is digital.

Books get wrecked. So do tablets.

Books need updated. So do files.

Books are hard to transport. So too are delicate tablets.

Really I don't think we can beat this mule anymore. It's a matter of personal preference. Please, let's stop calling for digital-only releases.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just in the offchance GW pulls a FFG and we all end up paying the same price for intangible assets.

I mean, does anyone trust FFG now??? Lol, maybe the diehard FlyCas types, but they were scum anyways.

 darkcloak wrote:
[

Really I don't think we can beat this mule anymore. It's a matter of personal preference. Please, let's stop calling for digital-only releases.

100% agree, except for you last point.. Digital only releases are already here... just look at the FAQ's.

Anyway, in a wierdly related topic, I'm watching a youtube video on Book Binding.. as I want a ebook release as a real book so the author can autograph it for me.

Such is life.

Wow did this thread take a left turn. Are we seriously concerned with a GW rule book being accessible in 1000 years?

A nice middle ground seems like a digital release that allows for printing. That way everyone that wants it paper and ink copy can have it for a few dollars more and everyone that likes digital is satisfied. And if/when a particular rule changes the digital copy is automatically good to go and the individual page could be reprinted for those using physical copies.

Seriously the solution for all preferences is not rocket science here. I just do not see GW giving up the extra income that physical codexes provide them any time soon.

Both methods have their strong points. Books are great for perusing, bookmarking, and can be a lot faster to flip through during a game. If I'm reading my faction's lore, I want to do it in the sweet glossy high def that only print can provide. And, in my opinion, print books help keep a game more social; electronic devices always have the potential to become a distraction.

But, PDFs are more portable, have a far more resilient binding, and, most importantly, can easily be kept up to date.

The way that GW has been rolling out updates, while great for addressing player concerns and adjusting balance issues, makes print obsolete incredibly fast - sometimes, like the SW codex, before the players even have it in their hands. I honestly think that GW should continue to produce both physical and digital books, but they should be bundled. If I shell out for a physical copy, then I should get a PDF copy as well, so I can have up-to-date rules. PDF should be cheaper, but not come with the print copy. As easy as that.

I hardly think we can count FAQs as digital releases. That would be a very thin hair to split.

And SW codex is far from obsolete. Obsolete isn't even the right word! And for that matter, GW addressed the issue as soon as it was caught and made amends. How is the Sagas fix any different than an errata? They saw a problem, and fixed it. It seems to me that we're just getting upset over nothing. So, the SW codex bungle proves nothing in the digital vs print debate.

Really the crux of the matter is that people want cheaper ways to get the rules. So instead of demanding GW stop "killing trees" how about we ask for mini-codices or PDFs (whatever your poison) that contain only the rules for the faction? That way I can still have my fancy book, and a better rule book than the starter pamphlet, and if I so choose, a pdf as well. Seems to me that more options is better than less.

Also, not claiming GW books will need referenced in 1000 years, just that books can indeed survive that long. I hardly think our current cyberspace has the backend to last that long.

Besides, techno-barbarians are supposed to arise soon and plunge the planet into chaos. Pretty sure they'll hit our internets first so we can't write a list to hard counter them.

If the rules were sold in a standalone cheap "index" alongside pdfs then that's fine. Say, once a year when chapter approved is released all changes are applied to the cheapo rulebooks and pdfs at once. So for something like $5 dollars a year you can get your paperback rules all together.

Though, as an aside, modern books do not last that long due to the acidity of the paper. They're good for a bit if taken care of (cool, not humid, not too much sunlight etc..) but they don't last nearly as long as say papyrus. Or stone for that matter So, don't expect future civilizations to find much written down about us.

Then I demand stone tablet codices!!!

And stone models that require seven years masonry experience to build!

That'll put a cap on those pesky new players for sure...

 darkcloak wrote:
I hardly think we can count FAQs as digital releases. That would be a very thin hair to split.

And SW codex is far from obsolete. Obsolete isn't even the right word! And for that matter, GW addressed the issue as soon as it was caught and made amends. How is the Sagas fix any different than an errata? They saw a problem, and fixed it. It seems to me that we're just getting upset over nothing. So, the SW codex bungle proves nothing in the digital vs print debate.

Really the crux of the matter is that people want cheaper ways to get the rules. So instead of demanding GW stop "killing trees" how about we ask for mini-codices or PDFs (whatever your poison) that contain only the rules for the faction? That way I can still have my fancy book, and a better rule book than the starter pamphlet, and if I so choose, a pdf as well. Seems to me that more options is better than less.

Also, not claiming GW books will need referenced in 1000 years, just that books can indeed survive that long. I hardly think our current cyberspace has the backend to last that long.

Besides, techno-barbarians are supposed to arise soon and plunge the planet into chaos. Pretty sure they'll hit our internets first so we can't write a list to hard counter them.

People bitch whine and moan about the rules being obselete everytime GW issues Errata, except when they don't issue Errata then they bitch whine and moan about a LACK of Errata

Yeah, see that's exactly it!

Back when telephones hung on walls and served a single purpose, there was no errata. Seems like we made it through the Dark Ages just fine.

All I know is when the Zombie apocalypse happens or Russian Hackers take down our power grid. I'll still be able to play because I have books.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
All I know is when the Zombie apocalypse happens or Russian Hackers take down our power grid. I'll still be able to play because I have books.

and thats important.. I mean... when the zombies aren't actively attacking you you need SOMETHING to pass thew time

If the hackers and zombies do come then forums will be forced to attempt to gather in real life. They will hunker together in the ruins of IRL to carve the Sacred Netlists into stone, so that our ancestors might know the optimum number of Alaitoc Hemlocks to take, and that Dark Reapers Are OP.

Weirdest of all will be the Cult Of The Ham Kitten Beetle, who gather each night to chant “Pistols Do Not Work RAW” and recite the Litany Of Broken Rules and the Litany Against RAI.

In the grim darkness of the very near future there is only RAW.

 vonjankmon wrote:
Wow did this thread take a left turn. Are we seriously concerned with a GW rule book being accessible in 1000 years?

A nice middle ground seems like a digital release that allows for printing. That way everyone that wants it paper and ink copy can have it for a few dollars more and everyone that likes digital is satisfied. And if/when a particular rule changes the digital copy is automatically good to go and the individual page could be reprinted for those using physical copies.

Seriously the solution for all preferences is not rocket science here. I just do not see GW giving up the extra income that physical codexes provide them any time soon.

Doesn't have to even be 1000 years. I have had digital only content go useless _because support was taken out_. Software tries to contact server, server doesnt' respond(taken out), software refuses to open. Have fun.

Subscription based rules like some suggest would obviously work like this. And when new edition comes out you think GW won't pull the plug from that? You didn't pay for the rules. You only paid for the ACCESS which lasts until a) you stop paying more constantly b) GW decides to pull that product out for good. Then you are left with nothing.

tneva82 wrote:


Doesn't have to even be 1000 years. I have had digital only content go useless _because support was taken out_. Software tries to contact server, server doesnt' respond(taken out), software refuses to open. Have fun.

Subscription based rules like some suggest would obviously work like this. And when new edition comes out you think GW won't pull the plug from that? You didn't pay for the rules. You only paid for the ACCESS which lasts until a) you stop paying more constantly b) GW decides to pull that product out for good. Then you are left with nothing.

How important are old rules to you in the first place? So I have been playing 40K since 2nd edition, and I have kept every rule book, including all of the weird odds and ends you needed in 2nd Ed to play the game. (vehicle cards, psychic power cards, vortex template, etc) But honestly there is 0 reason for my hording instinct on this, I have never gone back and read through any of it. Every once in a while I'll see it in the box I have it in up in the attic, have a brief period of nostalgia and then move on with life. The 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th edition rule books I have don't even elicit that nostalgic feeling. I still have my Angels of Death codex from 2nd Edition, which I have opened up from time to time to read the old fluff but honestly GW basically stopped writing new fluff so long ago and I can read the same things in the 3rd-7th edition Dark Angels codexes. Now I understand that I am not representative of everyone and that there are likely a fair number of people that do go back and read the old books but that is why I suggested a digital version that is printable. That way if you want you can print out a hard copy to hold onto for 25 years (god I am getting old) like I have. The solution here is not an either or scenario like so many people seem to think, there is a very happy middle ground where virtually everyone gets what they want and I am really confused at the "My way or the highway" attitude that seems to be the common opinion, but then again it is Dakka, so maybe I shouldn't be...

Honestly, I just wish they sold softback codices at a considerably cheaper price.

I like physical books. I like the codex format. I like rapid changes and improvements. I'm willing to compromise and deal with some errata and not having all up to date/relevant information in the book without supplement.

That being said, I despise paying £25 for a hardback book that's supposed to look nice and it's butchered with post-its on day one - it just defeats the point of the nice hardback, and oh man I feel bad for those that bought the limited edition version whose only advantage is looking nicer when it's filled with mistakes like that.

So far, I've bought an Index and two Codexes this edition (ignoring CA, etc) and only the Index has been entirely satisfactory - Codex: Chaos Space Marines had incorrect page numbers in the contents for all it's stuff (and thus I had to marr it with an inkjet pen) and Codex: Space Wolves is going to have a manky inkjet A4 inserted into the Warlord Traits page. Both were problems before the codex was even issued - so it's not any errata/playtesting/etc. Neither of these on their own are so bad, but it's especially annoying when I know I'm paying a premium for the book to be hardback with no alternative.

I'd be an awful lot less salty if I even had the option to buy a softback for at least £5 cheaper RRP.

JohnnyHell wrote:In the grim darkness of the very near future there is only RAW.

That is signature worthy.

I originally stated I'd like a subscription based model. I think it's an option for people who like all of the rules, updated all the time and that set of updated rules is the law and everyone knows that that is the one to go for.

However, I do see the drawbacks. I think GW are milking the codex, but that is their job.

I honestly don't understand why they don't do a "if you buy the hard copy you get a free, automatically updated epub" (idea originally from Karol on another thread). That would justify the cost. The electronic copies could also have just the rules in them in a more easily organized system.Some months ago I even asked if they could do a recycle scheme, where you take back your old codex to get the new edition at a slight discount (say £5). This discount would only apply at GW. I mean I never buy from GW unless it's an exclusive... always my FLGS which is up to 20% cheaper (except paints). It'd encourage you to go back into the stores, they can recycle the books and pretend they're sustainable, and you get new rules that you might not otherwise have bought!

tneva82 wrote:

 vonjankmon wrote:
Wow did this thread take a left turn. Are we seriously concerned with a GW rule book being accessible in 1000 years?

A nice middle ground seems like a digital release that allows for printing. That way everyone that wants it paper and ink copy can have it for a few dollars more and everyone that likes digital is satisfied. And if/when a particular rule changes the digital copy is automatically good to go and the individual page could be reprinted for those using physical copies.

Seriously the solution for all preferences is not rocket science here. I just do not see GW giving up the extra income that physical codexes provide them any time soon.

Doesn't have to even be 1000 years. I have had digital only content go useless _because support was taken out_. Software tries to contact server, server doesnt' respond(taken out), software refuses to open. Have fun.

Subscription based rules like some suggest would obviously work like this. And when new edition comes out you think GW won't pull the plug from that? You didn't pay for the rules. You only paid for the ACCESS which lasts until a) you stop paying more constantly b) GW decides to pull that product out for good. Then you are left with nothing.

That's when you go buy the physical copy, because it will be $5 on e-bay.

 vonjankmon wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


Doesn't have to even be 1000 years. I have had digital only content go useless _because support was taken out_. Software tries to contact server, server doesnt' respond(taken out), software refuses to open. Have fun.

Subscription based rules like some suggest would obviously work like this. And when new edition comes out you think GW won't pull the plug from that? You didn't pay for the rules. You only paid for the ACCESS which lasts until a) you stop paying more constantly b) GW decides to pull that product out for good. Then you are left with nothing.

How important are old rules to you in the first place? So I have been playing 40K since 2nd edition, and I have kept every rule book, including all of the weird odds and ends you needed in 2nd Ed to play the game. (vehicle cards, psychic power cards, vortex template, etc) But honestly there is 0 reason for my hording instinct on this, I have never gone back and read through any of it. Every once in a while I'll see it in the box I have it in up in the attic, have a brief period of nostalgia and then move on with life. The 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th edition rule books I have don't even elicit that nostalgic feeling. I still have my Angels of Death codex from 2nd Edition, which I have opened up from time to time to read the old fluff but honestly GW basically stopped writing new fluff so long ago and I can read the same things in the 3rd-7th edition Dark Angels codexes. Now I understand that I am not representative of everyone and that there are likely a fair number of people that do go back and read the old books but that is why I suggested a digital version that is printable. That way if you want you can print out a hard copy to hold onto for 25 years (god I am getting old) like I have. The solution here is not an either or scenario like so many people seem to think, there is a very happy middle ground where virtually everyone gets what they want and I am really confused at the "My way or the highway" attitude that seems to be the common opinion, but then again it is Dakka, so maybe I shouldn't be...

Your "middle ground" consists of ceasing to print books and giving us an option to print them off the tablets we had to buy in order to pay to access the rules?

Seems like we can just keep printing books and selling epubs... Isn't that a middle ground where everyone gets what they want?

Oh wait I forgot! Digital propenents demand we give up our books for some esoteric reason that still hasn't been really explained or even maybe thought out.

So I am going to work off the assumption that you are unaware of E-reader programs that work on computers and cell phones and that you are not being obtuse just to try and continue your argument because you are unable to admit that maybe there is an actual middle ground here.

So, there are free applications for both Andriod and iOS along with free programs for Windows that allow you to view both of the common e-reader formats.

And I am not demanding that you give up your books. It may shock you to know that I actually prefer hard copy and would be one of those people that would print out a copy of the rules in my middle ground scenario. I do have some digital rules (The Forgeworld 8th Ed rule update books) also that I use my IPad to view but it's not my preferred method. But the reality is that in the scenario I am proposing GW would likely stop producing hard cover codexes since doing so would not likely be economically viable any longer. The reason that it is currently, even though you can get digital copies of everything is that those digital copies cannot be printed and are never updated, so there's really no incentive for them like there would be under my scenario. So no one is demanding anything but I think that if digital books were made truly useful you would see the end of the hard back $40 book versions we see now.

 Brother Castor wrote:

Stux wrote:
I actually prefer the data cards to the codex for Strats. That way I can put away ones that will never come up in the game, making it easier to remember the ones I can use haha

Don't give me a reason to 'need' the cards!

Okay, so I bought the cards

If I had a tablet I still wouldn't want to take it to a store, getting it damaged or stolen would be horrible, those things are super expensive. Rather carry around an out dated hardcopy of rule book and codex, plus printed stuff. The lose something that is practicaly irreplacable.

See your point but this seems to be threadromancy on a bit of a whinge of mine.

MODS, feel free to do the necessary if you wish.

Yes, they are. And yet despite wanting to push a paper product their proofreading and editing is ridiculously subpar, and people defend it by saying they aren't a publisher so mistakes should be acceptable in what is pitched as a high-quality product.

EDIT: didn't notice the thread was necro'd. Leaving this here for posterity though.

Yeah sorry, my fault for posting on it again