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Made in gb
Boosting Ultramarine Biker





UK

Well as you quoted me I feel the need to reply...

BrianDavion wrote:
the fact that black library is as sucessful as it is suggests that "YES VIRGINA THERE IS A DEMAND FOR FLUFF"

I didn't say there wasn't a demand for fluff did I? I said I didn't think there would be demand for a fluff-only codex.

BrianDavion wrote:
In fact I'd argue that, despite their vocalness here, the "I don't care about the fluff I just play the game" mind set is proably in a minority among 40k fans.

I'm not part of that mindset either am I? I said I love the fluff plus rules format and always have.

This message was edited 11 times. Last update was at 2018/08/29 17:46:33


   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





Davor wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
[Ok let me explain since my point apparently was missed by you. I go out and buy a box of space Marines. I can't just open the box and immediatly use them, snap tight space Marines aren't a thing. This means you have to buy glue, also if you want to field a painted army, you have to buy paints and brushes (figure about5 pots of paint fot 5 bucks Canadian? and then a handful of cheap brushes for about 15 bucks) sure not everyone uses a painted army, but you also get the basic core rules for a unit in it's box now, and the basic basic core rules for 40k are free online now, So yeah if I bought a box of intercessors and my buddy bought a box of death guard we could play without buying a codex, our options are just much more limited. to get into the game in a serious way though? yeah there's a basic cost of entry. And when you consider the amount of money spent on a typical 40k army a 50 dollar codex is chicken feed.


Thank you very much for your explanation. Greatly appreciated. I rather get minis than books. I have been buying codices for a while and it's basically same old same old. Same fluff with maybe a new sentence or two added in. So since I already have the fluff basically just wanting the new rules and points is all that is needed. I am in the hobby for the minis. So basically what I see is paying $50 just for new points and rules seems like such a waste when that money can be going to new minis.

This is plastic crack after all. So buying more minis, keeps on buying more minis. Buying a book takes away from buying the minis. I could have bought the new Tau minis, or new Chaos but I don't want to spend $100 on a 2 books that have fluff just seems a waste when I already have it and just want the rules/points. That could have been $100 of minis instead. My answer is not any more wrong than your answer. We are both looking at the hobby at a different way.

While in the end the money is chicken feed. Starting off is not chicken feed. Again you look at it as "playing the game" I am looking at it as "collecting minis, painting and modelling them now and eventually playing them later." So buying a book is just not my sort of fun. Maybe it is for you.


thing is that the codices aren't even nesscarily made with us old timers in mind, but they are also designed to give new comers to a faction a feel for the faction, weather or not codices do a good job of that these days is a differant debate and one I think there is room for improvement on (codices eaither do read as a simple dry "here aare the facts" or like a 14 year old hyper active child describing the army. but my ideal for a codex would proably be more expensive)

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




The reasoning I can only think of instead of GW moving to an app bsed solution is that they have become addicted to the mark-up they can make on hardcopy codexes - I am afraid I don't have any stats to back this up it is just a logical conclusion


The mark-up would be higher for app based codices because the production costs after the first copy are basically zilch.
Files are terrible collector's items, though.
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Calculating Commissar





Gone-to-ground in the craters of Coventry

I have used .ePub codexes, and the hard- and soft-cover types.

I am far more likely to use a soft-copy codex at the table.
Hard-copy is heavier and it all adds up when you throw the BRB and latest Chapter Approved in the bag along with the codex.
Both types can be bookmarked for quicker access to the right unit page.

Digital copies are handy away from the game, to reference on the fly when an idea pops up.
But, flicking through a digital version can be a pain, and having to worry about battery life is not part of the game.
Loading times are infuriating, when you just need to find that certain number or rule.

Also, if hard-back didn't exist any more, prices for all versions would have to drop to the soft-back levels.
So, that won't happen.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/28 08:25:27


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Made in ro
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon




Lisbon, Portugal

I'd be okay with softcover coming back - and even P&B images.

40k Dark Angels
BFG Tau

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Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison




Bristol

BrianDavion wrote:
I can't just open the box and immediatly use them, snap tight space Marines aren't a thing.


Wrong. https://www.games-workshop.com/en-EU/Space-Marines


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Skinnereal wrote:
I have used .ePub codexes, and the hard- and soft-cover types.

I am far more likely to use a soft-copy codex at the table.
Hard-copy is heavier and it all adds up when you throw the BRB and latest Chapter Approved in the bag along with the codex.
Both types can be bookmarked for quicker access to the right unit page.

Digital copies are handy away from the game, to reference on the fly when an idea pops up.
But, flicking through a digital version can be a pain, and having to worry about battery life is not part of the game.
Loading times are infuriating, when you just need to find that certain number or rule.

Also, if hard-back didn't exist any more, prices for all versions would have to drop to the soft-back levels.
So, that won't happen.


This. When I bought my 4th edition Tau codex it was something like £12. Just before it was replaced in 6th, it was £18. Then the 6th edition codex was £30, for reused fluff from 2 editions ago, removal of wargear and the introduction of the Riptide.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/28 09:12:17


The Laws of Thermodynamics:
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Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





 A Town Called Malus wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I can't just open the box and immediatly use them, snap tight space Marines aren't a thing.


Wrong. https://www.games-workshop.com/en-EU/Space-Marines



Do they still make those? hmm thought they woulda canceled em, I stand corrected, still the over all gist of my point stands. and you're gonna wanna glue those guys anyway

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




BrianDavion wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I can't just open the box and immediatly use them, snap tight space Marines aren't a thing.


Wrong. https://www.games-workshop.com/en-EU/Space-Marines



Do they still make those? hmm thought they woulda canceled em, I stand corrected, still the over all gist of my point stands. and you're gonna wanna glue those guys anyway

Check out the new AoS kits all snap fit "no glue required" if you don't mind gaping seam lines etc.
   
Made in gb
Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






UK

Ice_can wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 Brother Castor wrote:
Nobody would buy a fluff-only codex. I like hardcopy codexes, and GW's current strategy for balancing the game by only changing the points not the datasheets means that a hardcopy codex + BattleScribe works well for me.


I would. I have bought fluff only books from GW and other before and would do so again - I only really bought Shield of Baal and several other campaign packs for the fluff section.


the fact that black library is as sucessful as it is suggests that "YES VIRGINA THERE IS A DEMAND FOR FLUFF"

In fact I'd argue that, despite their vocalness here, the "I don't care about the fluff I just play the game" mind set is proably in a minority among 40k fans.

It's not that we don't care it's that it gets annoying buying the same throwaway fluff with every codex and being forced to carry around 200 unnecessary pages to a game.
Heck GW has done what I would want a proper codex to look like before with the Mont'ka expansion for 7th a rules book and fluff book not a combined 300 page book that I have to carry to every game.

Do you really need the first 100 ish pages of every codex at your game? It's like randomly deciding to pack a black library book ontop of your codex for every game just because you might read it at home some time.


The End times / 40k Campaign packs were wonderful for that - lovely great tome of stories and a SEPERATE slim book of rules - not sure if they did not sell well enough as they seem to have stopped doing it.

The first AOS books sort of tried to do it but in one book and were not bad but suffered from the fact it was almost exclusively Stormcast, Khorne, Stormcast, Khorne, Stormcast, Khorne etc. Again it looks like they have abandoned the idea.

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
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Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





So it seems from skimming this that there are several thoughts, positions and arguments.

It seems to me there needs to be a combination of things, so I'll propose some things to the debate.

ePubs needs to continue with both the rules and fluff. This allows more convenience, less paper waste and transport and more frequent and easily deliverable updates. There does however seem to be a need for the fluff and rules/datasheets to be seperated out somewhat into a more convenient format for the actual game.

People like to buy the hard copies. This is for the fluff and pictures, the rules, and as collector pieces. So I'd propose a collectors artwork codex (which they already do) and then a standard game edition which has a smaller removable rules booklet.

I'd prefer the ePubs to be available as a subscription model where you pay say £100 or £120 a year and get all the codex ePubs which are updated when required. So really you aren't subscribing to the codexes, you're subscribing to the rules + pictures and lore added in. GW get a secure income, gamers get to spread out their costs and get all the books.
I'd also like the hardcopy rules and datasheets in the same format/size (maybe A5 cardboard?) so they can be printed out/bought and replaced easily. They can be taken in a binder, and replaced if updated, without ruining a whole book. Also if you don't have a unit, you don't take the datasheet in your binder. People can also ensure that everyone is working of the latest version of a datacard/sheet/rule as the version number can be printed on them and a list of latest version numbers of each unit or card etc can be found on GWs website.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/08/28 11:28:43


 
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





One issue also with subscribtion. You aren't paying for rules. You are paying for access to rules. Which means you don't control fate of it. GW does.

Seeing how many games I play that have official support ended...Not fan. With subscribtion I would basically need to do loooots of screenshots to have access to rules. Assuming they don't just get shut down unannounced.

“Nothing has a definite nature, so people cannot be purely evil. Even so-called evil people will aspire to follow a moral path when they feel a sense of community.” – Kukai

~12200 pts
5150 pts
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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




tneva82 wrote:
One issue also with subscribtion. You aren't paying for rules. You are paying for access to rules. Which means you don't control fate of it. GW does.

Seeing how many games I play that have official support ended...Not fan. With subscribtion I would basically need to do loooots of screenshots to have access to rules. Assuming they don't just get shut down unannounced.
i second that.
I'm not sure I would trust GW to be running a subscription model for rules.

Another area of concern would be the ability to use it without data on or such etc etc I'm not yet at the point I'm willing to accept required internet connection for a 40k game.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





tneva82 wrote:
One issue also with subscribtion. You aren't paying for rules. You are paying for access to rules. Which means you don't control fate of it. GW does.

Seeing how many games I play that have official support ended...Not fan. With subscribtion I would basically need to do loooots of screenshots to have access to rules. Assuming they don't just get shut down unannounced.


I guess if support ended they would just release them for free. There are some online games that used to be subscription, but have gone to a "freemium" model.

You are correct... you're not paying for the rules, but I don't see it as just access. You are paying for all the updates in a convenient format (both usually-paid-for, and free rules). I buy a hard copy and it's already out of date, and you can't adjust the book without ruining it (say with pens, or stickers) or having to refer to other books or papers. This makes me really resent buying the hard copy, but I don't see as much value in getting the ePub as Id only want it for the rules/datasheets (pictures and lore, to me, are nicer in hardcopy), and it's not a very good format.
Subscription gives GW lots of benefits, such as a continuous revenue stream, knowing the numbers of players, feedback, add-on sales, buy in.
For the consumer you get spread out cost, cheaper overall, all the books, all the books updated, and still the option to buy the hard copies.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/28 11:55:12


 
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





TarkinLarson wrote:
I guess if support ended they would just release them for free. There are some online games that used to be subscription, but have gone to a "freemium" model.


GW has very bad track record on that one...

“Nothing has a definite nature, so people cannot be purely evil. Even so-called evil people will aspire to follow a moral path when they feel a sense of community.” – Kukai

~12200 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights
 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





tneva82 wrote:
TarkinLarson wrote:
I guess if support ended they would just release them for free. There are some online games that used to be subscription, but have gone to a "freemium" model.


GW has very bad track record on that one...


I heard about the Shadow War: Armageddon game which was virtually dropped just after it was produced, I believe. What other examples are there? How long would you expect support to continue for an edition or game? I know there a lot of specialist games they've produced which have finished... I have plenty of those, but I wouldn't expect much support to continue for Chainsaw Warrior or Block Mania

I would argue that a subscription would encourage GW to continue support... and it would be a good indicator that something was naturally dying, when there wasn't enough subscriptions to justify continuing support or it just needs a revamp.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/28 13:06:38


 
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Canada

I was thinking of something "helpful" and "evil" all in one thought: GW can sell "Update stickers"!!!!!

For a $15 you can peel and stick over those offensive obsolete entries with stylish "redacted by the inquisition" in the margins (as well as the update number).
Comes with GW approved tabs to label those often referenced pages!
They are only released as one package to update the current Codex's.
Collect them all and you will never be behind on any Codex you decide to buy!


I bet you I could get most people to buy these...

A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte

 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




I think between electronic format, rapid production (3d printing, recasting) and maybe some sense of entitlement, the idea of some of the old ways of creating a dollar are dead.

I think that is why you see them attempting to push the IP of the Grimdark universe more, looking at stuff like films, and other ways to pull in money.
   
Made in us
Implaccable Grey Knight Paladin




San Diego, CA

tneva82 wrote:
One issue also with subscribtion. You aren't paying for rules. You are paying for access to rules. Which means you don't control fate of it. GW does.

Seeing how many games I play that have official support ended...Not fan. With subscribtion I would basically need to do loooots of screenshots to have access to rules. Assuming they don't just get shut down unannounced.

While I don't think that GW is suddenly going to shut down, I don't like the idea of paying for rules for armies other than the 3 I own. I also don't think a subscription is necessary, right now the .epub and iOS versions of the rules auto-update and I paid for them once. I think a simple, downloadable PDF you can print at home is sufficient.
This thread seems to have a lot of self-flagellation for GW's sake going on ("but we have to pay them more somehow cause they want it!", etc).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/28 13:42:29


Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
 
   
Made in us
Ambitious Space Wolves Initiate




Pittsburgh,PA

I'll never go digital full time, it's bad for your eyes, you have to worry about battery life, and I don't feel like traveling with an $800 tablet. To me, a book will always be superior. As to the screw up on the warlord traits, who really cares. The books get FAQ'd anyways - it's one page printed out you keep in the back. I've seen people go as far as saying "I'm selling my collection and never playing 40k again!" Get over it, they're bigger problems atm.

Currently playing:  
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Plark, I respect your choice to stay print, but really, the Bad for your eyes, Battery, and cost issue, are not the big deals your expressing.

No need to overstate the arguments. Any cheap tablet will do, and in general any machine with a battery that lasts a couple hours works great, and its in general no worse for your eyes that reading a codex.

And in return I won't try to pretend that all Codexs you buy are the collector edition that cost way more, driving up the cost on print to more ridiculous levels.
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




Reemule wrote:
Plark, I respect your choice to stay print, but really, the Bad for your eyes, Battery, and cost issue, are not the big deals your expressing.

No need to overstate the arguments. Any cheap tablet will do, and in general any machine with a battery that lasts a couple hours works great, and its in general no worse for your eyes that reading a codex.

And in return I won't try to pretend that all Codexs you buy are the collector edition that cost way more, driving up the cost on print to more ridiculous levels.


Don't forget Blue light. That is bad as well. Not sure if those devices have the blue filter or not or if people even use them.

Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.

Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?

Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".  
   
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Ambitious Space Wolves Initiate




Pittsburgh,PA

Reemule wrote:
Plark, I respect your choice to stay print, but really, the Bad for your eyes, Battery, and cost issue, are not the big deals your expressing.

No need to overstate the arguments. Any cheap tablet will do, and in general any machine with a battery that lasts a couple hours works great, and its in general no worse for your eyes that reading a codex.

And in return I won't try to pretend that all Codexs you buy are the collector edition that cost way more, driving up the cost on print to more ridiculous levels.



And I agree with you, I guess I should specify, sometimes I fall asleep and not charge my phone let alone my tablet. If I have a tournament or wanna play the next day and I forget to charge thats a problem.. Plus, I understand any cheap tablet will do, but I have a new iPad and transporting it places risks the chances it get stolen and broken, I don't feel like spending money on a smaller cheap tablet. And I have sensitive eyes and work on a computer all day, my eyes twitch and I wear glasses. Also, those "blue modes" and so forth take away from the art and pictures imo.

Currently playing:  
   
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Dakka Veteran




 plark wrote:
Reemule wrote:
Plark, I respect your choice to stay print, but really, the Bad for your eyes, Battery, and cost issue, are not the big deals your expressing.

No need to overstate the arguments. Any cheap tablet will do, and in general any machine with a battery that lasts a couple hours works great, and its in general no worse for your eyes that reading a codex.

And in return I won't try to pretend that all Codexs you buy are the collector edition that cost way more, driving up the cost on print to more ridiculous levels.



And I agree with you, I guess I should specify, sometimes I fall asleep and not charge my phone let alone my tablet. If I have a tournament or wanna play the next day and I forget to charge thats a problem.. Plus, I understand any cheap tablet will do, but I have a new iPad and transporting it places risks the chances it get stolen and broken, I don't feel like spending money on a smaller cheap tablet. And I have sensitive eyes and work on a computer all day, my eyes twitch and I wear glasses. Also, those "blue modes" and so forth take away from the art and pictures imo.


All true, But You also might have your kid drag your codex out side and it gets rained on and ruined, or forget your rules and such when your headed out to the tournament, or any other issues like that.

Simple reality is that both have minor risks and minor advantages.

I think to have an honest discussion, people needs to agree that while individually there are some things that work to make one better or worse, the reality is it is down to preferences at this point in the larger discussion.

   
Made in ca
Frenzied Berserker Terminator





Canada

Reemule wrote:
 plark wrote:
Reemule wrote:
Plark, I respect your choice to stay print, but really, the Bad for your eyes, Battery, and cost issue, are not the big deals your expressing.

No need to overstate the arguments. Any cheap tablet will do, and in general any machine with a battery that lasts a couple hours works great, and its in general no worse for your eyes that reading a codex.

And in return I won't try to pretend that all Codexs you buy are the collector edition that cost way more, driving up the cost on print to more ridiculous levels.



And I agree with you, I guess I should specify, sometimes I fall asleep and not charge my phone let alone my tablet. If I have a tournament or wanna play the next day and I forget to charge thats a problem.. Plus, I understand any cheap tablet will do, but I have a new iPad and transporting it places risks the chances it get stolen and broken, I don't feel like spending money on a smaller cheap tablet. And I have sensitive eyes and work on a computer all day, my eyes twitch and I wear glasses. Also, those "blue modes" and so forth take away from the art and pictures imo.


All true, But You also might have your kid drag your codex out side and it gets rained on and ruined, or forget your rules and such when your headed out to the tournament, or any other issues like that.

Simple reality is that both have minor risks and minor advantages.

I think to have an honest discussion, people needs to agree that while individually there are some things that work to make one better or worse, the reality is it is down to preferences at this point in the larger discussion.



You can spank your kids, can't spank TFGs or major corporations!

I agree that this topic of digital vs print is too nuanced and divisive for GW to anything except cater equally to both audiences. I however personally feel digital editions could have easily not been added to the mix and we would have all been just fine. But I'm a jerk who doesn't approve of anything so, don't mind me.



Gets along better with animals... Go figure. 
   
Made in us
Ambitious Space Wolves Initiate




Pittsburgh,PA

Reemule wrote:
 plark wrote:
Reemule wrote:
Plark, I respect your choice to stay print, but really, the Bad for your eyes, Battery, and cost issue, are not the big deals your expressing.

No need to overstate the arguments. Any cheap tablet will do, and in general any machine with a battery that lasts a couple hours works great, and its in general no worse for your eyes that reading a codex.

And in return I won't try to pretend that all Codexs you buy are the collector edition that cost way more, driving up the cost on print to more ridiculous levels.



And I agree with you, I guess I should specify, sometimes I fall asleep and not charge my phone let alone my tablet. If I have a tournament or wanna play the next day and I forget to charge thats a problem.. Plus, I understand any cheap tablet will do, but I have a new iPad and transporting it places risks the chances it get stolen and broken, I don't feel like spending money on a smaller cheap tablet. And I have sensitive eyes and work on a computer all day, my eyes twitch and I wear glasses. Also, those "blue modes" and so forth take away from the art and pictures imo.


All true, But You also might have your kid drag your codex out side and it gets rained on and ruined, or forget your rules and such when your headed out to the tournament, or any other issues like that.

Simple reality is that both have minor risks and minor advantages.

I think to have an honest discussion, people needs to agree that while individually there are some things that work to make one better or worse, the reality is it is down to preferences at this point in the larger discussion.



Very true, however I would rather my kid take my book out in the rain than my tablet . But there's pluses and minius on both

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Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





BTW not sure if this is true or not but I heard in my local GW that for those people who REALLY care, you can send your space wolves codex into GW and they'll "Staple the new warlord traits in or something"

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A true Wolf would paint in on a wolf's hide and wear it at the game.

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Courageous Space Marine Captain





 Crimson Devil wrote:
A true Wolf would paint in on a wolf's hide and wear it at the game.


eh I live in a lefty city, PETA would make my life miserable if I tried that

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Dakka Veteran




Also what is the basis behind the GW taking this away? I have them all downloaded, stored on my NAS at home, uploaded onto my online cloud (drop box, and another place) and then also they are in my dump file I keep on my Jump drive I keep in the fireproof safe, and then I actually have copies on my Tablet, and my phone.

GW couldn't get them from me if it wanted to. And I'm fairly sure that between all this they will out survive me. And Waay more durable than any book ever created.
   
Made in ca
Frenzied Berserker Terminator





Canada

Reemule wrote:
Also what is the basis behind the GW taking this away? I have them all downloaded, stored on my NAS at home, uploaded onto my online cloud (drop box, and another place) and then also they are in my dump file I keep on my Jump drive I keep in the fireproof safe, and then I actually have copies on my Tablet, and my phone.

GW couldn't get them from me if it wanted to. And I'm fairly sure that between all this they will out survive me. And Waay more durable than any book ever created.


That claim seems pretty outlandish. A quick Google search says that the oldest surviving books date from 3000BC to 1400AD. Is your existential property going to be found by Alien colonists thousands of years from now? Anecdotal evidence time. There are three bookstores withing a 5km radius of where I live. Any one of them has a shelf of antique books you aren't allowed to touch unless you buy them. Number of antique computer software stores? Zero.

Cloud-sharing is all fine and well, but who owns the server? You or a corporation?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean, there is a reason the medium has survived literally thousands of years.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/29 15:16:15




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