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Made in gb
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend





Example in case, the SW codex (English version) being obsolete before you even get it in your hands.

Ideal scenario, imho and which I have advocated previously, is to make available both Apple and Android codexes - with equal functionality you damn Apple fanboys (another rant for another day) - which autoupdates.

If I had pre-ordered the SW codex I would be pretty darn miffed.

The reasoning I can only think of instead of GW moving to an app bsed solution is that they have become addicted to the mark-up they can make on hardcopy codexes - I am afraid I don't have any stats to back this up it is just a logical conclusion.

OK, if people want fluff then sell hardcopy fluff books for each faction but don't shoehorn people into buying sub-par books which are out of date within a month or two.

Any other thoughts on how GW can address this?

Cheers.

Please note, for those of you who play Chaos Daemons as a faction the term "Daemon" is potentially offensive. Instead, please play codex "Chaos: Mortally Challenged". Thank you. 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




UK

It's not just markup* - a LOT of people are not digitally inclined. Maybe they don't own or use a tablet or perhaps they just prefer paper over digital.

Also when you walk in the shop its a lot easier to get convinced into buying into an army when the staffer (3rd party or GW store) can put a book in your hand with lore, painting, photos, stats and everything you need right there in your hands.

The books sell and the majority of the information within them remains viable; plus a lot of people - like myself - prefer physical over digital reference material. (there's a recent thread on the very topic).



Yes books in physical formats mean that updates from a more regularly updating GW rules system, will fall out of date quicker. But the bulk of the book remains viable and the FAQ/Errata updates are small in size. Many are refinements of game terms or rules; others are point changes which affects only one page in the book.


I totally understand the frustration, but physical books still hold their value and their market appeal. If you took them away GW and gamers would honestly lose out.




Now GW could take a bold step and say each physical purchase comes with a free digital purchase. That might ease some ruffled feathers for some who like to use both and want the updates. Though lets not forget that FAQ and such are all released free and are easy to print out if required.



*If it was GW could just stop making print books altogether and just mark up the digital versions however they wanted for even more profit!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/25 14:16:27


A Blog in Miniature - now featuring reviews of many new Black Library books (latest Novellas) 
   
Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok




Crescent City Fl..

And what do you purpose for those of us who simply prefer a hard copy codex. I'd be fine with hard copy rules - all the fluff myself. But I hate reading my army books on Epubs or Pdf. It's been more trouble than flipping pages during games.

"Pathetic earthlings. Hurling your bodies out into the void, without the slightest inkling of who or what is out here. If you had known anything about the true nature of the universe, anything at all, you would've hidden from it in terror."
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Made in gb
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend





Oh, please don't get me wrong. I am very much a fan of hardcopy codexes and own a few of the collectors editions i.e. Deathwatch and Drukhari.

What I am not a fan of is the rules contained therein being invalidated within a very short period of time.

I don't want my extra pricey collectors edition looking like a bomb went off in a Post-It factory.

Please note, for those of you who play Chaos Daemons as a faction the term "Daemon" is potentially offensive. Instead, please play codex "Chaos: Mortally Challenged". Thank you. 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




UK

Here's the thing - you can either have codex that remain up to date for years or a more reactive fast adapting rules system that allows for corrections via regular FAQ updates.

Now you can argue that GW spends more time and resources balancing and that is a very fair comment, but even if they do that then there will still be adjustments. Even the kings of balancing such as Blizzard make continual changes to the balance in their games and they are often held up rather high in balance terms.


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Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Problem is with gw not caring about balance so we get rapid fire changes designed to get you buy new models

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Made in us
Missionary On A Mission




Tacoma, WA, USA

I can't think of many instances where GW changed the rules of a Codex after publication to make people buy more models.
   
Made in gb
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot





UK

Nobody would buy a fluff-only codex. I like hardcopy codexes, and GW's current strategy for balancing the game by only changing the points not the datasheets means that a hardcopy codex + BattleScribe works well for me.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/25 16:38:32


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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




More salt about the SW codex being obsolete before it's even out. Yes a company maid a mistake and tried to make up for it with a free PDF. Is it ideal no but mistakes happen at least GW didn't put out something laced with toxic chemicals. A lot of people like hard copy codexs they have that nice real weight to them they feel better than a tablet.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/25 16:56:57


 
   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





First it's not obsolete. Obsolete means unusable. It's still usable either as is in casual games or ideally with a short PDF.

Second, as many have stated a lot of people simply prefer print. My preferred method for referencing rules mid game is Battlescribe. Failing that, I'll use the print book. I really hate using large PDF documents though, I find it incredibly clunky.
   
Made in us
Implaccable Grey Knight Paladin




San Diego, CA

It's not GW who's hooked on "hardcopy codex crack" - it's the players.

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
 
   
Made in us
Stormblade




I agree with Stux - hardcopies are easier to use in actual games. PDFs on tablets are clunky and you have to worry about the battery. It's also not especially difficult to update your codex - at least for prices and such. I just write in mine. Not like you can resell them for anything anyway.

I keep a print out of erratas incase they ever come up - and they haven't yet. Most of those changes are fairly well known.
However, battlescribe is a lot easier to use for list building.

If there was anything codex-wise I'd wish for was simply smaller physical codexes without fluff - basically like the indexes. Or maybe even the ultra-codex. Just a single codex with all unit stats, special rules, and a book-mark ribbon. If they released that after all of the codexes were out, i'd buy it.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




UK

 Brother Castor wrote:
Nobody would buy a fluff-only codex.



Except they do - Black Library sells loads of books and all they are is stories and lore. Heck for the right factions I'd happily buy more detailed lore books than what codex/battletome give.

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UK

 Overread wrote:
 Brother Castor wrote:
Nobody would buy a fluff-only codex.



Except they do - Black Library sells loads of books and all they are is stories and lore. Heck for the right factions I'd happily buy more detailed lore books than what codex/battletome give.

A codex with the rules removed is not the same as a Black Library novel though, it's a page or two of description on each unit in a faction.

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Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





 Brother Castor wrote:
 Overread wrote:
 Brother Castor wrote:
Nobody would buy a fluff-only codex.



Except they do - Black Library sells loads of books and all they are is stories and lore. Heck for the right factions I'd happily buy more detailed lore books than what codex/battletome give.

A codex with the rules removed is not the same as a Black Library novel though, it's a page or two of description on each unit in a faction.


...

Have you actually looked in a codex? There's a lot more than that.
   
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Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard






 Overread wrote:
 Brother Castor wrote:
Nobody would buy a fluff-only codex.



Except they do - Black Library sells loads of books and all they are is stories and lore. Heck for the right factions I'd happily buy more detailed lore books than what codex/battletome give.


They don't pay $40 US for them though.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

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Made in gb
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 Insectum7 wrote:
 Overread wrote:
 Brother Castor wrote:
Nobody would buy a fluff-only codex.



Except they do - Black Library sells loads of books and all they are is stories and lore. Heck for the right factions I'd happily buy more detailed lore books than what codex/battletome give.


They don't pay $40 US for them though.


The special edition ones are at least that!
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




imo, all the rules should be free online pdfs that you can download and print. Codexes should be primarily focused on lore and hobby/paint tips (especially for each subfaction in the codex). Throwing the rules into print makes it difficult to revamp units and abilities, the most we've gotten are a couple core rules changes (more like restrictions to existing rules) and various minor errata and points tweaks. With the current format it's impossible to add a whole new mechanic or drastically change stats without completely invalidating purchases, which is why changes have been fairly tame.
Until we get a new core rulebook, nothing truly groundbreaking will happen. Then we'd also likely need to buy new codexes.
Plus, you guys saw how fast they made a Renegade Knight PDF. That thing was done almost overnight. Meanwhile books takes months to plan, print and ship. If we didn't have books, we'd likely already have all codex-equivalent rules out by now. And when new models come out they can just update the PDF to include them.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard






Stux wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Overread wrote:
 Brother Castor wrote:
Nobody would buy a fluff-only codex.



Except they do - Black Library sells loads of books and all they are is stories and lore. Heck for the right factions I'd happily buy more detailed lore books than what codex/battletome give.


They don't pay $40 US for them though.


The special edition ones are at least that!


There are special edition novels? Wtf?

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot





UK

Stux wrote:
 Brother Castor wrote:

A codex with the rules removed is not the same as a Black Library novel though, it's a page or two of description on each unit in a faction.


...

Have you actually looked in a codex? There's a lot more than that.

Well in Codex: Space Marines (which I have in front of me now) if you ignore the 78 pages of rules, there's 109 pages of short 1 or 2 page sections introducing SM and describing the chapters and units, followed by 20 pages of photos of painted miniatures. Without the rules this codex would be very similar each edition and I just can't see it selling well.

I really like the combination of rules and description and clearly a lot of other people do too or GW wouldn't continue with the format. My current 8th edition codex is the same format as the Compendium I used for my SM army back in RT 25 years ago!

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2018/08/25 19:30:34


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Made in ca
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






Hard rules should be free, while Codexes should be a "premium" hard copy rules along with lore, hobby tips, and gallery images (Like they use to be!) The only reason I can see for them to still exist is to make you pay more. Having free digital rules, in the long run, would help even more since it would allow more people to just pick up a box and start playing and allow them to just update the online document without worrying about having to individually send out updates to the ebooks (just have a section with the latest rules and upload a new file every so often when a set of FAQs or updates ship).

That would be an ideal world though, and we do not live in an ideal world unfortunately.

Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!


Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.


When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do. 
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Hard rules should be free, while Codexes should be a "premium" hard copy rules along with lore, hobby tips, and gallery images (Like they use to be!) The only reason I can see for them to still exist is to make you pay more. Having free digital rules, in the long run, would help even more since it would allow more people to just pick up a box and start playing and allow them to just update the online document without worrying about having to individually send out updates to the ebooks (just have a section with the latest rules and upload a new file every so often when a set of FAQs or updates ship).

That would be an ideal world though, and we do not live in an ideal world unfortunately.


and how would they pay for those free rules?

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in gb
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Cardiff

Good luck getting GW to just drop guaranteed income from every player. Not gonna happen. They brought Codexes in now they’re here to stay. As of AoS we have v2 and v3 army books so we know they can double dip if launching a new selection of units, and as of 40K 7th we know they can also do Campaign books to grab cash from multiple faction players at once. Selling books is good margin and doesn’t eat into production capacity in Nottingham.

Honestly, yeah, free rules would be best for players and the game. But GW is still run by accountants for their shareholders, so turning off a lucrative revenue stream will just not happen.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





 JohnnyHell wrote:
Good luck getting GW to just drop guaranteed income from every player. Not gonna happen. They brought Codexes in now they’re here to stay. As of AoS we have v2 and v3 army books so we know they can double dip if launching a new selection of units, and as of 40K 7th we know they can also do Campaign books to grab cash from multiple faction players at once. Selling books is good margin and doesn’t eat into production capacity in Nottingham.

Honestly, yeah, free rules would be best for players and the game. But GW is still run by accountants for their shareholders, so turning off a lucrative revenue stream will just not happen.


giving away entire codices would mean they'd have to pay their rules writing team from their overhead.So the money loss to GW would be more then just a book or two they didn't sell. And because the rules would be a loss the beancounters running GW would likely have a skelliton crew doing the rules. If you think GW's rules now aren;t great, and aren't edited eneugh? they'd be even WORSE if the rules where free

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in gb
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Cardiff

BrianDavion wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
Good luck getting GW to just drop guaranteed income from every player. Not gonna happen. They brought Codexes in now they’re here to stay. As of AoS we have v2 and v3 army books so we know they can double dip if launching a new selection of units, and as of 40K 7th we know they can also do Campaign books to grab cash from multiple faction players at once. Selling books is good margin and doesn’t eat into production capacity in Nottingham.

Honestly, yeah, free rules would be best for players and the game. But GW is still run by accountants for their shareholders, so turning off a lucrative revenue stream will just not happen.


giving away entire codices would mean they'd have to pay their rules writing team from their overhead.So the money loss to GW would be more then just a book or two they didn't sell. And because the rules would be a loss the beancounters running GW would likely have a skelliton crew doing the rules. If you think GW's rules now aren;t great, and aren't edited eneugh? they'd be even WORSE if the rules where free


Can’t disagree. The optimum situation is free, great rules, but I agree with what you say - a no-revenue stream would have a no-resource allocation from the bean counters. Free rules won’t miraculously sell double the models to pay for the shortfall. There’s a difference between doing a copy/paste Index from Knoghts to placate some fans and losing £25 per player per army. Not to mention £25 per player for the annual DLC.

Books aren’t going anywhere. I’m just glad the hardbacks are more survivable than the hideously overpriced pamphlet-sized paperback Codexes of old.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/26 07:59:17


 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in it
Poxed Plague Monk





Sesto San Giovanni, Italy

Hasbro (D&D 3°) proven years ago that hard rules available for free are good business. And they even allowed 3rd party material.

But at GW they think they're a special snowflake, and the constant underwhelming size of their operations (if you compare it with the extreme bigger popularity of the IP itself) proves that.
There is no chance that things will change soon.
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

GW is hooked on hard copies. It brings them a lot of money by selling codices for 32.50 Euro or more. This is part of their business model.

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 Cybtroll wrote:
Hasbro (D&D 3°) proven years ago that hard rules available for free are good business. And they even allowed 3rd party material.

But at GW they think they're a special snowflake, and the constant underwhelming size of their operations (if you compare it with the extreme bigger popularity of the IP itself) proves that.
There is no chance that things will change soon.


the SRD was to allow the development of 3rd aprty content, thing is some things where kept out of it and exclusive to D&D proper. (it's why there are no beholders in Pathfinder)

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




If people keep buying the codexes in large numbers why would they change?
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran






Personally, I’d be happy to pay the same, maybe a bit less, for the core rules/faction rules without a whacking great hard cover/hundreds of extraneous pages of background material I’ve read a hundred times before.

I totally understand there’s a place for the codices, for new players and completists, but I’d much prefer something more streamlined and conducive to use during games.
   
 
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