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The two issues I have with MDF terrain regardless of price or quality are that firstly, no matter how nice and well designed it is it's almost always entirely obvious you're looking at MDF terrain and secondly, even with the few styles it's well suited for like Western buildings most people who buy it don't bother to put in the little bit of extra effort required to disguise those last few hints that it's a laser cut kit.

Once you factor in the price though - meh. People bring up the 4Ground fantasy stuff and similar "premium" MDF, but apart from it suffering a hefty case of issue one, by the time you're spending that much money on it it just seems bizarre to me not to spend the little bit extra to get something truly incredible looking like TTW resin buildings. Premium MDF occupies a weird niche - it's not cheap enough to bulk-buy like the simpler stuff or cardstock, but even at the top end as they approach resin and plastic kit pricetags they can't equal those materials for quality.

I think the key reason we see GW not pushing into a lot of alternate terrain materials is because GW likes to produce as much as it can in-house. So it makes sense we get plastic terrain because they've already got all the plastic production facilities they need.
They also have staff already trained and experience in all aspects of plastic model creation from design all the way to parting and producing the sprue.

So they don't have to learn huge rosters of new skills, hire new staff, buy new machines and setup a new production system.


They work with what they've got for the most part, which I think keeps terrain a little to the side because plastic is expensive to work with in terms of its mould costs; so unless terrain sells in vast numbers, there isn't the market demand to make lots and lots and lots of it.


In contrast the 3rd party market for terrain has exploded over the last few years (thanks a lot to kickstarter and the wider use of the internet). So there are loads of choices for a wealth of options for those who don't want to make their own or who don't want to fully make their own.

Who's talking about 40k? This is "Dakka Discussions", not "40k General Discussion". There's not many fliers in Kill Team or Necromunda, for example.

Anyway, that's besides the point; the requirements of a "good" 40k 8th edition are irrelevant to the idea that terrain can (should?) look as good as the miniatures.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Who's talking about 40k? This is "Dakka Discussions", not "40k General Discussion". There's not many fliers in Kill Team or Necromunda, for example.

Anyway, that's besides the point; the requirements of a "good" 40k 8th edition are irrelevant to the idea that terrain can (should?) look as good as the miniatures.

For those it's too sparse(and kill team is played on smaller table to boot) so no good either.

And good look is irrelevant if it fails as game terrain

edwardmyst wrote:
The OP's premise is inherently flawed IMO. The claim terrain lags behind is incorrect. It is out there. What lags behind is the average hobbyist's monetary commitment to terrain.

I think this is the best conclusion to reach. Most players view terrain as something you build yourself rather than spend good money on.

 Elbows wrote:
Is there anyone who doesn't want a Warmill Mega Mansion?

Spoiler:

I want that.

 Elbows wrote:
If anything, MDF has been the savior of many tables. A lot of people (OP included) seem to paint MDF in a broad brush, because so many small companies have laser-cutting machines now.

There is simple stuff like this:



This kind of stuff is normally cheap, if effective...and can be surprisingly nice when painted up.

That was my first though. I've been making terrain for almost 20 years, from sand and glue texture to caulking to textured sprays. MDF is amazing if you plan to put a little extra work into it.
There's a lot of fantastic MDF out there for sure.

MY only problem for terrain is hills. Sure we can make foam hills but I was elevated ground for about 1/3rd of the table. I want it to look like it's worth fighting over.
My problem is where am I going to store something like that! I'm kidding, I have a shed I just have to clean it out and get it organized. ..... One day.

Honestly, having been in the hobby for some time and happily using cardboard buildings back in the day, I don't think terrain is lagging behind at all. As a matter of fact, I think its more interesting than some of the army models. Its just pretty pricey.

tneva82 wrote:
Looks pretty, not that playable with 8th ed rules. Might work better in horus heresy at least.

Most of that is Necro terrain.

I would have thought that obvious.

tneva82 wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Who's talking about 40k? This is "Dakka Discussions", not "40k General Discussion". There's not many fliers in Kill Team or Necromunda, for example.

Anyway, that's besides the point; the requirements of a "good" 40k 8th edition are irrelevant to the idea that terrain can (should?) look as good as the miniatures.

For those it's too sparse(and kill team is played on smaller table to boot) so no good either.

And good look is irrelevant if it fails as game terrain

Again, you miss the point. If those tables are too spare, then just imagine them with more stuff on there. The density is not the topic of discussion, the quality is.

I'm firmly on the side of "mdf is ugly". That said - it's better looking than poorly done homemade terrain.

I don't really buy terrain because I would need to haul it with me to the game shop or trust the store to its safe-keeping.

I started Adeptus Titanicus and I think I will spring for full well-made board with buildings and just haul it back and forth. That will be considerably easier than doing the same with 40k since AT doesn't require a full bag just for the minis. I can fit some of the smaller buildings into my battlefoam.

I've seen Infinity players build buildings that stack inside each other for easier storage and transport. Likewise, the card buildings from Dropzone Commander will fit inside each other too.

 Yodhrin wrote:
The two issues I have with MDF terrain regardless of price or quality are that firstly, no matter how nice and well designed it is it's almost always entirely obvious you're looking at MDF terrain and secondly, even with the few styles it's well suited for like Western buildings most people who buy it don't bother to put in the little bit of extra effort required to disguise those last few hints that it's a laser cut kit.

Once you factor in the price though - meh. People bring up the 4Ground fantasy stuff and similar "premium" MDF, but apart from it suffering a hefty case of issue one, by the time you're spending that much money on it it just seems bizarre to me not to spend the little bit extra to get something truly incredible looking like TTW resin buildings. Premium MDF occupies a weird niche - it's not cheap enough to bulk-buy like the simpler stuff or cardstock, but even at the top end as they approach resin and plastic kit pricetags they can't equal those materials for quality.

And that's where I'd disagree a large bit. TTW is amazing stuff, but it's also more expensive than even premium pre-painted MDF and it's resin (more prone to damage, chipping,. breaking), and even their largest pieces don't come anywhere near some of the largest MDF structures. I personally think the best stuff is hand made terrain, but that's a skill that 90% of gamers don't have. For large and expansive tables, I absolutely hate resin - though I think it's excellent for smaller scales like 15mm, etc. At 28mm scale it's way too heavy and brittle. At least MDF is robust (I usually travel a convention circuit each year with mine and it does a lot of handling and a lot of travel, so far so good).

I think the poster on the first page hit the nail on the head though, 3D terrain is the future. Most 3D printed stuff I've seen is plenty robust and detailed, though it'll still require painting.

From what I've seen of MDF with a very basic paintjob (one color, wash, drybrush) I think it's acceptable. It seems about like when people paint SM one color, paint their shoulder pads a different color and pick out the boltgun and Aquila with metal. It hits the point for me where imagination can take over. Especially when most of the time things are at arm's length.

I can definitely appreciate better paintjobs and better terrain, don't get me wrong. It's just that basic level of detail pulls me out of the "green plastic army men fighting over books and soda cans" mentality and puts me into a more immersive state of mind.

 warhead01 wrote:

MY only problem for terrain is hills. Sure we can make foam hills but I was elevated ground for about 1/3rd of the table. I want it to look like it's worth fighting over.
My problem is where am I going to store something like that! I'm kidding, I have a shed I just have to clean it out and get it organized. ..... One day.

Maybe you could make nesting hills like the nesting buildings people mentioned?

I've been trying to figure out how to do more sloping hills as opposed to the stepped, ziggurat looking hills. I mean, they seem like they would be easy to make, but I would guess 40k models would tip over alot when placed on them.

I strongly agree with OP, that terrain is often neglected part of this hobby (one of the reasons I don't play at FLGSs). But when it comes to reasons of such neglect, I think the main is that personal investment in terrain (of both money and effort) relies heavily on where do you play the most...

I play exclusively garagehammer so I simply have to own terrain, but I don't really imagine traveling with it even to the local FLGS. I prefer complex 3D gaming experience, so instead of a gaming mat, my basic "ground level" is made of a set of XPS negative height floor tiles. Combined with a full set of hills and rock formations enough to populate standard table to my liking is 2'x2'x2' cube while stored and weights a fair amount - and it's still just a floor level with 1" level increments!. For games like Necromunda or Kill team/Shadow War, all other structures come on top of that to form dense enough and vertical enough terrain. That is A LOT of storage space required just to what amounts to a single table (with variety options) of barren rock/Ash Wastes refinery theme, couple of times more than all armies me and my wife own combined (a total of nearly 10,000 points). I've been holding on making a proper industrial floor tiles for my Sector Mechanicus specifically for storage reasons, as I also plan them to be fully 3D, but this time with 2" base level thickness for more complex negative height structure. Terrain is simply very, very demanding to own...

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
From what I've seen of MDF with a very basic paintjob (one color, wash, drybrush) I think it's acceptable. It seems about like when people paint SM one color, paint their shoulder pads a different color and pick out the boltgun and Aquila with metal. It hits the point for me where imagination can take over. Especially when most of the time things are at arm's length.

I can definitely appreciate better paintjobs and better terrain, don't get me wrong. It's just that basic level of detail pulls me out of the "green plastic army men fighting over books and soda cans" mentality and puts me into a more immersive state of mind.

 warhead01 wrote:

MY only problem for terrain is hills. Sure we can make foam hills but I was elevated ground for about 1/3rd of the table. I want it to look like it's worth fighting over.
My problem is where am I going to store something like that! I'm kidding, I have a shed I just have to clean it out and get it organized. ..... One day.

Maybe you could make nesting hills like the nesting buildings people mentioned?

I've been trying to figure out how to do more sloping hills as opposed to the stepped, ziggurat looking hills. I mean, they seem like they would be easy to make, but I would guess 40k models would tip over alot when placed on them.

You could get into vacuum formed hills.

not a lot of people do it but it could be a very affordable way to make nesting terrain.

I guess it depends how you look at it. If you want heavily detailed plastic kits you can just glue together, prime and dry brush in an evening then sure, there aren't many options, and most of them are on the pricey side. But making terrain yourself is fun, and allows you to create a more interesting table anyway. I wish more companies would do what SAS does, and just make a sprue with bits you stick to whatever objects you like to transform them into appropriately-themed terrain.

There are some excellent resin building sets for doing just that - but I agree, more would be slick. TT Combat have a number of excellent resin sets of "add-ons" (doors, hatches, vents, etc.)

I just got lost in thingiverse and all the options on there for random industrial and sci fi bits that could be added to war games terrain. I need to see if I can (ab)use my work printer

Interesting discussion.
I have friends who are content to play on stacked magazines and cardboard boxes because they're more about rolling dice and strategy than models, guess it depends on a persons financial investment in the game vs hobby; also available space.

I'm very much DIY, admire high end terrain kits for inspiration but doubt I'd ever buy them.

My first foray into proper model wargaming was battletech, so there were loads of assets and scenery guides meant for model train enthusiasts to use.
Later experience in larger 25mm+ were the gaming tables at the flgs, which the staff went all out in making full-detailed 4x4 boards out of foam, sand and resin. They even had embedded metal sheets for magnetized terrain to be swapped between games of 40k, mordhiem, battle for helms deep...lets just say the experience raised my terrain quality expectations.

Following that I like the hirst-arts stuff, rather than selling a static-formed finished product, customers buy tools/molds to produce modular parts to build however.
I see 3d printing as an extension of that idea, buying part files, potentially modified to personal effect and scale before printing.
Also it allows boutique model designers to invest more in creating content than managing the overhead of more traditional terrain business that could become mentally and financial burden.
Are there current trade offs? Sure, but quality will only improve with time.

Not a fan of bare mdf, I don't like the texture, but having used it in non-gaming prototyping even the cheaper stuff can be a template for much more detailed terrain if a person is inclined to put the effort in.

I think people have pretty much covered the main points now, but I just had to throw this in as another example fo good MDF terrain




Terrain ain't lagging, it;s out there if you want it.

Inteesting,. but how useful is it? You've only got three plases to position models, and it doesn't look like it'll have a useable interior.

Not every piece of terrain has to accommodate models, it'd just be a LoS blocker that looks cool.

 Desubot wrote:

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
From what I've seen of MDF with a very basic paintjob (one color, wash, drybrush) I think it's acceptable. It seems about like when people paint SM one color, paint their shoulder pads a different color and pick out the boltgun and Aquila with metal. It hits the point for me where imagination can take over. Especially when most of the time things are at arm's length.

I can definitely appreciate better paintjobs and better terrain, don't get me wrong. It's just that basic level of detail pulls me out of the "green plastic army men fighting over books and soda cans" mentality and puts me into a more immersive state of mind.

 warhead01 wrote:

MY only problem for terrain is hills. Sure we can make foam hills but I was elevated ground for about 1/3rd of the table. I want it to look like it's worth fighting over.
My problem is where am I going to store something like that! I'm kidding, I have a shed I just have to clean it out and get it organized. ..... One day.

Maybe you could make nesting hills like the nesting buildings people mentioned?

I've been trying to figure out how to do more sloping hills as opposed to the stepped, ziggurat looking hills. I mean, they seem like they would be easy to make, but I would guess 40k models would tip over alot when placed on them.

You could get into vacuum formed hills.

not a lot of people do it but it could be a very affordable way to make nesting terrain.

Interesting ideas.
I hadn't thought about nesting hills and am unfamiliar with vacuum formed. I was thinking and maybe didn't express it very well, about hills that are at least 2 foot by 2 and a half or larger, even hills coming out of a corner of the table. I've bade lots of fixed terrain tables over the years but don't have a place to keep one like that now.

With MDF, how easy it is to cast, and the rise of 3d printing - absoultly not on a decline

Even with homebrew/scratch builds - check out https://old.reddit.com/r/TerrainBuilding/

My casted/mdf Dropzone table I'd set up for local demos:




If youre talking about warmachine specifically... you'd be correct.

 sockwithaticket wrote:
Not every piece of terrain has to accommodate models, it'd just be a LoS blocker that looks cool.

... and takes up half the board. Looking at that, it's precisely the sort of structure that troops would occupy, for cover if nothing else. Having it sat there inviolate while the battle rages round it just doesn't make sense for me, so it stops being cool.

Nice board Stevefamine.

Like many of the others who has posted, because of the cost I often built my own terrain. Now that my group is older, has more disposable income, and less time there have been some terrain purchases.

My two cents,

CB

When I started gaming, it was either resin stuff (expensive), hand made stuff (expensive or time consuming), or a green sheet with piles of books for hills.
The new (in the last decade) plastic kits and MDF kits have really brought down the entry barriers (cost or time) to get from fighting among books & cans to fighting in reasonable terrain.
The new (also in the last couple of years) mats have also brought with them a huge leap forward - realistic terrain with almost no effort, minimal cost and storage overhead.

I mean, we'd all like to own ForgeWorld terrain tiles and have a storage room full of interchangable scenery / custom 6x4 boards, but that's not realistic for most of us.

And what you've mentioned is, more or less, the kicker.

There isn't a single person in this thread who would argue that the best tables aren't beautiful hand-made, flocked, with water effects and glued on foliage, maybe built on modular 2'x2' board sections etc. Everyone would love to have that option for a table. There are plenty of terrain-maestros who make gorgeous professional tables. Hell, on some other forums there are professional model builders who have been recruited to do models for large film sets, etc. That would be ideal/gorgeous.

That's maybe 3-4% of the gaming community who have the time, space, money, or inclination to do that. Often established older folks with a permanent living situation and a spare room for gaming, or a large garage.

The rest of the gaming population might be in constant flux with regards to living conditions (apartments, dorm rooms, etc.), don't have a large budget, or need to simply do as much as they can on the cheap. The same goes for tournament organizers. There's a reason the new standard is: MDF terrain and mats. Because it's a 70% solution (when nicely painted) to the question.

My gaming tables aren't ideal, but what I can do is stash my two folding tables in my car, throw in a mat or two, and a couple rubbermaid bins of terrain and set up a very decent table. I live in an apartment at the moment, so I've not got heaps of space...but I have a mobile solution which provdies a nice amount of terrain/table options. I have a stack of bins in the corner - all filled with terrain.

Regarding peoples motivations...well that is definitely the weakest part of the hobby, particularly so in 40K. I think this is a result of the larger audience for 40K, but the first time I said somebody should paint their models (in a thread where he listed 10,000 points of models and was asking what next to purchase...so I asked if he'd painted his stuff) my first response was "he doesn't have to paint his stuff, what a gakky attitude you have!". So, expecting painted models, let alone painted or nice terrain is apparently a snobby attitude and you're a dick if you expect it...lol. I do 100% agree that terrain is the most overlooked portion of the game.

As an aside, guys, do y'all mind putting large images behind spoiler tags? Page 1 of this thread isn't readable on mobile at present - I didn't try looking at page 2.