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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Racerguy180 wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Voss wrote:
Don't get too hung up on the fixed numbers for the Indomitus datacards, final unit sizes may not be clear until the full kits or the codex.
Which is what pisses me off. There's no reason not to provide the full Codex entries in Indomitus. Can we please know if my Assault Intercessor Sergeant can have something beyond a Plasma Pistol? If my Outrider Sergeant can have a Power Fist? Or if my Eradicators can have a few extra squadmates?


One of my assault intercessors Sgts is armed with a hand flamer/thunder hammer & my outrider sgt is armed with a hand flamer. Both are valid sgt equipment so they get them. Stupid gak like this is part of the reason I dont care about tourneys, ZERO players @ my flgs will have a problem with my Salamanders sgts being armed with hand flamers....and I'd have zero problem if there was an equally moronic restriction like that.

Yeah curse those tournament players playing by the rules instead of GW refusing to give Salamanders Hand Flamers or Inferno Pistols or more access to Heavy Flamers!
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Voss wrote:
Don't get too hung up on the fixed numbers for the Indomitus datacards, final unit sizes may not be clear until the full kits or the codex.
Which is what pisses me off. There's no reason not to provide the full Codex entries in Indomitus. Can we please know if my Assault Intercessor Sergeant can have something beyond a Plasma Pistol? If my Outrider Sergeant can have a Power Fist? Or if my Eradicators can have a few extra squadmates?


One of my assault intercessors Sgts is armed with a hand flamer/thunder hammer & my outrider sgt is armed with a hand flamer. Both are valid sgt equipment so they get them. Stupid gak like this is part of the reason I dont care about tourneys, ZERO players @ my flgs will have a problem with my Salamanders sgts being armed with hand flamers....and I'd have zero problem if there was an equally moronic restriction like that.

Yeah curse those tournament players playing by the rules instead of GW refusing to give Salamanders Hand Flamers or Inferno Pistols or more access to Heavy Flamers!


It's always weird to me when people blame tournament players for stuff that's clearly GW's fault. Like, is that dude gonna cry about tournament players being the reason his Riptide wing doesn't get double shoot anymore too? Or blame tournament players for dreadnoughts not being able to take twin autocannons anymore? Because tournament players had no part in those decisions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ragnar69 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Squads of bikes with ~40 attacks on the charge... LET'S DO THIS!

We already had this for ages including 8 power fist attacks: Space Wolves Swiftclaws.
Did you see those breaking the meta? Besides, 6 of the new bikers are a PITA to move with those huge bases and the new coherency.


This difference here is that Outriders are GOOD. Whitescars gives them advance and charge, they have double the wounds, they're BS 3+ with 4 shots each inside of 15", they have built in AP-1, and they can get to those 40 attacks without whatever nonsense you gave them to double their attack characteristic, while also having access to a huge number of their own buffs. All for only 17 more points than a swiftclaw.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/30 20:20:39


 
   
Made in us
Steady Space Marine Vet Sergeant




San Jose, CA

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Voss wrote:
Don't get too hung up on the fixed numbers for the Indomitus datacards, final unit sizes may not be clear until the full kits or the codex.
Which is what pisses me off. There's no reason not to provide the full Codex entries in Indomitus. Can we please know if my Assault Intercessor Sergeant can have something beyond a Plasma Pistol? If my Outrider Sergeant can have a Power Fist? Or if my Eradicators can have a few extra squadmates?


One of my assault intercessors Sgts is armed with a hand flamer/thunder hammer & my outrider sgt is armed with a hand flamer. Both are valid sgt equipment so they get them. Stupid gak like this is part of the reason I dont care about tourneys, ZERO players @ my flgs will have a problem with my Salamanders sgts being armed with hand flamers....and I'd have zero problem if there was an equally moronic restriction like that.

Yeah curse those tournament players playing by the rules instead of GW refusing to give Salamanders Hand Flamers or Inferno Pistols or more access to Heavy Flamers!


you do know there is more to the game than matched play.
If you and your opponent agree, it's all good. if your opponent doesnt, you dont have to play them.

now go do that @ a tourney and see what happens, cuz I'm pretty sure that there'll be no agreeing to anything.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




That basically makes you trying to play the victim card if your opponent doesn't agree.

The option doesn't exist. If you want it to exist, you know who you need to contact, and to get others to contact as well. As long as it doesn't exist though, you're not actually playing 40k. If you don't want to follow rules, you don't need them. Just go "pewpew" and the person that does it better wins.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





ERJAK wrote:

This difference here is that Outriders are GOOD. Whitescars gives them advance and charge, they have double the wounds, they're BS 3+ with 4 shots each inside of 15", they have built in AP-1, and they can get to those 40 attacks without whatever nonsense you gave them to double their attack characteristic, while also having access to a huge number of their own buffs. All for only 17 more points than a swiftclaw.


1) Outriders can't get 40 attacks, because at present they're limited to 3 models
2) There isn't any nonsense that gave 40 attacks. It is points. 9 Swiftclaws to 5 Outriders (ignoring size restrictions). This means 36 attacks and 18 wounds for Swiftclaws and 30 attacks and 20 wounds for Outriders.
3) Outriders are 20 points more
4) Those same swiftclaws will get 36 AP0 shots. The outriders will get 20 AP1. Range is largely irrelevant and bikes ignore rapid fire restrictions.
5) You can't advance and shoot so its guns or charging, but not both without CP
   
Made in gb
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch






 Daedalus81 wrote:
ERJAK wrote:

This difference here is that Outriders are GOOD. Whitescars gives them advance and charge, they have double the wounds, they're BS 3+ with 4 shots each inside of 15", they have built in AP-1, and they can get to those 40 attacks without whatever nonsense you gave them to double their attack characteristic, while also having access to a huge number of their own buffs. All for only 17 more points than a swiftclaw.


1) Outriders can't get 40 attacks, because at present they're limited to 3 models
2) There isn't any nonsense that gave 40 attacks. It is points. 9 Swiftclaws to 5 Outriders (ignoring size restrictions). This means 36 attacks and 18 wounds for Swiftclaws and 30 attacks and 20 wounds for Outriders.
3) Outriders are 20 points more
4) Those same swiftclaws will get 36 AP0 shots. The outriders will get 20 AP1. Range is largely irrelevant and bikes ignore rapid fire restrictions.
5) You can't advance and shoot so its guns or charging, but not both without CP



But outriders are available for everyone?
If you go SW then maybe swiftclaws are better. Outriders are pretty great regardless, and big units would be cool
   
Made in us
Steady Space Marine Vet Sergeant




San Jose, CA

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:That basically makes you trying to play the victim card if your opponent doesn't agree.

The option doesn't exist. If you want it to exist, you know who you need to contact, and to get others to contact as well. As long as it doesn't exist though, you're not actually playing 40k. If you don't want to follow rules, you don't need them. Just go "pewpew" and the person that does it better wins.

wait, so your telling me that the hand flamer isnt on the intercessor sgt weapon list? and assault intercessors arent intercessors right....

It is a perfectly viable way to play and GW have straight up said so, so feth you and your gatekeeping. GW has been very clear about agreement between players being more important than anything. we now need to agree on what terrain is what, so how is this such a difficult concept to understand.

Its soooo nice that GW has named Slayer the arbiter of what constitutes REAL 40k. We all got the email and it shouted praises from the rooftop of warhammer world.

I may not like tourneys, but they are just as valid a way to play as the way we do. Just cuz I dont play your way doesnt make mine any less official. i would think that someone as opposed to PL like you would have no problem PAYING points for wargear, since points are so perfectly balanced.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Racerguy180 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:That basically makes you trying to play the victim card if your opponent doesn't agree.

The option doesn't exist. If you want it to exist, you know who you need to contact, and to get others to contact as well. As long as it doesn't exist though, you're not actually playing 40k. If you don't want to follow rules, you don't need them. Just go "pewpew" and the person that does it better wins.

wait, so your telling me that the hand flamer isnt on the intercessor sgt weapon list? and assault intercessors arent intercessors right....

It is a perfectly viable way to play and GW have straight up said so, so feth you and your gatekeeping. GW has been very clear about agreement between players being more important than anything. we now need to agree on what terrain is what, so how is this such a difficult concept to understand.

Its soooo nice that GW has named Slayer the arbiter of what constitutes REAL 40k. We all got the email and it shouted praises from the rooftop of warhammer world.

I may not like tourneys, but they are just as valid a way to play as the way we do. Just cuz I dont play your way doesnt make mine any less official. i would think that someone as opposed to PL like you would have no problem PAYING points for wargear, since points are so perfectly balanced.

Blame GW for making separate entries for the Assault and regular Intercessors. If the Assault ones don't get it, tough luck. Not my problem. That's a clear need of playing a non-existent victim card though. If a unit doesn't have the option listed, it simply won't get it.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Steady Space Marine Vet Sergeant




San Jose, CA

I seem to remember on one of the voxcasts, they were talking about how if your opponent agrees equals 100% ok. so, I fail to see the problem here.

your version of the game (100% valid per GW)
my version of the game (100% valid per GW)

how is my game any less legit then yours?
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Racerguy180 wrote:
I seem to remember on one of the voxcasts, they were talking about how if your opponent agrees equals 100% ok. so, I fail to see the problem here.

your version of the game (100% valid per GW)
my version of the game (100% valid per GW)

how is my game any less legit then yours?


Technically it isn't. Thanks to GW's 'if your opponent agrees to it' mantra we can play candyland rules on a monopoly board with hello kitty pogs and both agree that it's 40k and be correct.


But teah, at this point you're kind of just cheating aren't you? I mean, it's pretty much the same thing as 'well my impulsor has dual twin lascannons on it now because I THINK it should have that option!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/31 01:01:17


2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:


But outriders are available for everyone?
If you go SW then maybe swiftclaws are better. Outriders are pretty great regardless, and big units would be cool


Regular marine bikers might have 27 attacks to the 30 with outriders, but their shooting is the same as Swiftclaws. A note of caution - the Outrider bases are huge. Getting a large unit to fit on certain parts of tables would be difficult.

Also, 50% of Outrider attacks go away after the first round; 33% for bikes. If all marines get the astartes chainsword the gap is closed a ton more.

I'm certainly not saying Outriders are bad. I'm just refuting this notion that they're a significantly superior unit. For Whitescars? Sure they're scary on turn 3, but this is something that could have been done with WS last edition - especially since bikes were cheaper then. No one really did though even with Skilled Riders, because if it doesn't have "Primaris" in front then people take it down a peg.

   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




 Daedalus81 wrote:
 McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:


But outriders are available for everyone?
If you go SW then maybe swiftclaws are better. Outriders are pretty great regardless, and big units would be cool


Regular marine bikers might have 27 attacks to the 30 with outriders, but their shooting is the same as Swiftclaws. A note of caution - the Outrider bases are huge. Getting a large unit to fit on certain parts of tables would be difficult.

Also, 50% of Outrider attacks go away after the first round; 33% for bikes. If all marines get the astartes chainsword the gap is closed a ton more.

I'm certainly not saying Outriders are bad. I'm just refuting this notion that they're a significantly superior unit. For Whitescars? Sure they're scary on turn 3, but this is something that could have been done with WS last edition - especially since bikes were cheaper then. No one really did though even with Skilled Riders, because if it doesn't have "Primaris" in front then people take it down a peg.



Swiftclaws are BS 4. Not the same. Also, not for nothing but in no way should all marines get astartes chainswords. Feth that. Apparently free extra shots with bolters, free extra attacks on the charge, free extra AP on all weapon types over the course of a game, and other free rules based specifically on what fluff stuff your chapter is supposed to excel(above and beyond the free stuff you get for chapter tactics which is fine because at least this every army has an equivalent of) at isn't enough, we need to give all chainswords free extra AP as well. God forbid you be in the assault doctrine with less than AP-2 on anything.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/31 01:26:02


 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Only certain members of the Adeptus Astartes should have Astartes Chainswords.

   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Exactly how big are the outriders bases? If you could take a 6 man squad, much less 10, how difficult would it be to get them all into engagement range without breaking coherencey?

And if astartes chainswords aren't given to all astartes, then there will be salt.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/31 01:36:49


 
   
Made in us
Steady Space Marine Vet Sergeant




San Jose, CA

ERJAK wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
I seem to remember on one of the voxcasts, they were talking about how if your opponent agrees equals 100% ok. so, I fail to see the problem here.

your version of the game (100% valid per GW)
my version of the game (100% valid per GW)

how is my game any less legit then yours?



But teah, at this point you're kind of just cheating aren't you? I mean, it's pretty much the same thing as 'well my impulsor has dual twin lascannons on it now because I THINK it should have that option!


wow, I've never been called that before, my opponents dont seem to think I'm cheating, so?
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Only certain members of the Adeptus Astartes should have Astartes Chainswords.


Yea it will be really awkward if they don't all get it (despite the misgivings some might have). I also can't see two storm shields with the same name and different rules. There will certainly be no small amount of changes with the codex.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Racerguy180 wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
I seem to remember on one of the voxcasts, they were talking about how if your opponent agrees equals 100% ok. so, I fail to see the problem here.

your version of the game (100% valid per GW)
my version of the game (100% valid per GW)

how is my game any less legit then yours?



But teah, at this point you're kind of just cheating aren't you? I mean, it's pretty much the same thing as 'well my impulsor has dual twin lascannons on it now because I THINK it should have that option!


wow, I've never been called that before, my opponents dont seem to think I'm cheating, so?

Well it is and isn't playing by the rules. That's the long and short of it, sport.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Fargo, ND USA

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Exactly how big are the outriders bases?


They're 90x50mm ovals.

You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
I seem to remember on one of the voxcasts, they were talking about how if your opponent agrees equals 100% ok. so, I fail to see the problem here.

your version of the game (100% valid per GW)
my version of the game (100% valid per GW)

how is my game any less legit then yours?



But teah, at this point you're kind of just cheating aren't you? I mean, it's pretty much the same thing as 'well my impulsor has dual twin lascannons on it now because I THINK it should have that option!


wow, I've never been called that before, my opponents dont seem to think I'm cheating, so?

Well it is and isn't playing by the rules. That's the long and short of it, sport.


By the same argument, all tournament players have been cheating during almost the entirety of 8th edition, as they weren't using the rules/scenarios from either the core rulebook or Chapter Approved? Good to know.

Or was that OK, because all parties participating agreed to it?

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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




It wasn't real 40k either. However the playability of real 40k is debatable since the rules are trash. Why do you think GW in the end adopted ITC ideas to its core rules?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





it's not cheating, but it's not really worth the time taking house rules into a discussion of rules because house ruyles by definition aren't the "common play experiance" I mean it's one thing if it's a common set of house rules. like ITC tourny rules, Collecting the money in the community chest when you land on free parking,

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Steady Space Marine Vet Sergeant




San Jose, CA

well, I guess you got me, just one big cheater right here. God, how can I live with my ridiculously over powered piece of wargear on one sgt, oh the humanity!

o wait, GW said pay points for it & its legit. just not by matched play rules, good thing we play narrative, whew close one there.

oh wait, Open & Narrative play are valid ways to play, which according to GW are just as legit as matched.

Just cuz I dont care about matched does not make it any less valid.

   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

You're being intentionally obtuse here.

Assault Intercessor Sergeants currently have one option. Giving them anything else would be breaking the rules, no matter how stupid that seems, and even if they do end up getting better options.

   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Is there a separate word in english that describes such a situation? Asking because in polish there isn't, so am having problems getting my head around the idea of not following rules not being cheating. Closest similart thing we have , is something we call legal rebelion, but that has to do with laws put up by an enemy state.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/31 06:14:42


If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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Witch Hunter Undercover in a Cult







Karol wrote:
Is there a separate word in english that describes such a situation? Asking because in polish there isn't, so am having problems getting my head around the idea of not following rules not being cheating. Closest similart thing we have , is something we call legal rebelion, but that has to do with laws put up by an enemy state.


Like an irregular verbs joke? "He cheats, you stretch the rules, I interpret the system creatively."

Or are you one of the people who gets bent out of shape at the idea of other people using house rules that GW didn't write?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/31 06:36:40


Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using. 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Karol wrote:
Is there a separate word in english that describes such a situation? Asking because in polish there isn't, so am having problems getting my head around the idea of not following rules not being cheating. Closest similart thing we have , is something we call legal rebelion, but that has to do with laws put up by an enemy state.


The English term for this is called "House rules" Karol. it's not legal cheating so much as two people (or more) sitting down and agreeing to alter the rules to their taste. I'm sure you've never heard of such a thing in your uber compeitive envrioment and you'll no doubt trot out some story of your toxic high school wrestling team to enforce your "point"

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in de
Witch Hunter in the Shadows



Aachen

If everyone agrees on using house rules, thats just that - house ruling. Going to an ITC tournament means you'll use their house rules, for example.

If you unilaterally decide to add a house rule without the other(s) agreeing to that house rule, that's breaking the agreed upon rules, "cheating".

Tournaments have a defined set of rules and are generally speaking not willing to add extra house rules to accommodate your list /models.

In a pick up game you can always just ask and most players will agree with minor stuff like "hey, I'm using a hand flamer instead of a plasma pistol since they're salamanders, but if you want I'll play it as a plasma pistol instead - your choice"
Thats not cheating either.

Claiming that your Sarge can carry an inferno pistol or that your devastators can use heavy flamers is, though. Hopefully some of that gets fixed in the merged codex
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut



NE Ohio, USA

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It wasn't real 40k either. However the playability of real 40k is debatable since the rules are trash. Why do you think GW in the end adopted ITC ideas to its core rules?


Probably a healthy kickback of some sort.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I think the point is "Do whatever you want!" isn't really a good answer to "Why the hell can't GW just release the full entries with all the options.".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/31 08:52:01


   
Made in us
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade




Well let's hope that you can take them in squads of 6


You will be able to take them in squads up to 5. They will only come in boxes up to 3.

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

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