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Made in us
Furious Fire Dragon




USA

Sunny Side Up wrote:
 mokoshkana wrote:
I justify by trusting that the developers and play testers (who likely had a pretty big hand in these changes) deemed that they weren't OP.

Do you honestly think it is the army itself that is so broken, or is it merely one of its sub-factions, Soaring Spite? How many of those winning armies used Veiled Path, Dreaming Shadow, Silent Shroud, Midnight Sorrow or Frozen Stars as the main Masque?


Well, the same thing always applies.

Why did Repentia go up a point? Clearly nobody thought Ardent Shroud Repentia are a problem, no?

Why did GW increase the points on the Castellan back in the day? Hawkshroud Castellans never made much of a splash?

Why did GW hike up those Dark Reapers and Shining Spears? Running them as Iyanden never caused anyone harm? Just like those Eldar Flyers never really were a problem outside Alaitoc.

Etc..

And the designers have made mistakes before, so it's prudent to point out mistakes again. That is why they fixed things like Look Out Sir or 55 point GSC Acolytes or Blood Angels getting all their gear for free in early 8th. People made them aware, as even well-meaning designers can miss things.
Back in the day is irrelevant now. They did not use external playtesters prior to 9th edition, so to me it is apples and oranges to compare 9th to what came before it. I don't know anything about sisters or repentia, so I cannot speak to any of that. Having played Harlequins since they dropped in 7th, I can speak to them. As such, you didn't answer my question though. Honestly, what is so broken about the army?

We mortals are but shadows and dust...
6k
:harlequin: 2k
2k
2k 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




 mokoshkana wrote:
Back in the day is irrelevant now. They did not use external playtesters prior to 9th edition, so to me it is apples and oranges to compare 9th to what came before it. I don't know anything about sisters or repentia, so I cannot speak to any of that. Having played Harlequins since they dropped in 7th, I can speak to them. As such, you didn't answer my question though. Honestly, what is so broken about the army?


Mostly (far too) cheap, punchy ObSec that can fall-back and charge (over intervening models no less) and can deny primary like no other army.

There's a reason Harlequins were like 3 to 4 out of the top 5 in the (very few) Majors and GTs we had like the HAO, the Mid-W Open, etc.. Clutch GT, etc..

HAO winner in an interview stated that over the 5 rounds, his 5 opponents combined scored 10 primary points against him in the new missions.

Combined with a good defence against alpha strike, underpriced fusion/haywire and a few other tricks, they just do too much for too little and are too easy to play for the points they cost.

On stat aggregators like 40Kstats (which those external playtesters from FLG, Mike Brandt, etc.. have praised as the game changer for play testing because it allows people to look at numbers more objectively, and have cited as being crucial in addressing Iron Hands, because they could show GW rules writers the kind of crazy numbers and not just anecdotes), they comfortably sit at the top of basically all statistics.

Not sure what you need.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/01/07 18:17:04


 
   
Made in us
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Just have to say, wow. Surprised that GW did all this so effectively and so free. It gets more respect from me than it would from a small wargames company because they don't have to; time has shown us being the bigger fish means GW can get away with charging for updates of lower quality. Credit where credit is due, this earns some serious good will from me.

Edit: To clarify, yes I know there are all sorts of problems with it. My point is they did enough things right that this update will be a notable improvement overall.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/07 18:40:11


Still trying to be more polite. If you catch me being toxic please call me on it.

Enjoying narrative before matched play, crusading on a path to glory! 
   
Made in us
Furious Fire Dragon




USA

Sunny Side Up wrote:
 mokoshkana wrote:
Back in the day is irrelevant now. They did not use external playtesters prior to 9th edition, so to me it is apples and oranges to compare 9th to what came before it. I don't know anything about sisters or repentia, so I cannot speak to any of that. Having played Harlequins since they dropped in 7th, I can speak to them. As such, you didn't answer my question though. Honestly, what is so broken about the army?


Mostly (far too) cheap, punchy ObSec that can fall-back and charge (over intervening models no less) and can deny primary like no other army.

There's a reason Harlequins were like 3 to 4 out of the top 5 in the (very few) Majors and GTs we had like the HAO, the Mid-W Open, etc.. Clutch GT, etc..

HAO winner in an interview stated that over the 5 rounds, his 5 opponents combined scored 10 primary points against him in the new missions.

Combined with a good defence against alpha strike, underpriced fusion/haywire and a few other tricks, they just do too much for too little and are too easy to play for the points they cost.

On stat aggregators like 40Kstats (which those external playtesters from FLG, Mike Brandt, etc.. have praised as the game changer for play testing because it allows people to look at numbers more objectively, and have cited as being crucial in addressing Iron Hands, because they could show GW rules writers the kind of crazy numbers and not just anecdotes), they comfortably sit at the top of basically all statistics.

Not sure what you need.

Cool, using your 40Kstats - https://www.40kstats.com/top-4s for results
Some form of Daemons - 14
Mono Harlquins - 8 (2 additional lists with Aeldari allies)
Salamanders - 10
Orks - 9
Ultramarines - 8

From that they don't seem to be taking 60/80% of the tournaments top 5s.

Also, that data is suspect as they lump everything together. There is no distinction in the win rate of Harlequins between mono and using allies, which would need to be taken into account to actually get to the proper numbers.

All that said, if mono Harlequins are truly winning 60% of their match-ups, then sure they need a little reduction. Although 60% isn't super game breaking. GW is never going to balance 50% win rates across the board, so things between 60-40 (ideally 55-45) is the best we can hope for from them.


We mortals are but shadows and dust...
6k
:harlequin: 2k
2k
2k 
   
Made in gb
Hellacious Havoc





Wales

Wonder why Death Guard cultists are 5pts and Chaos Space Marines are 6?. Could be due to them not being core or having rule to prevent Vets of long war in new Deathguard codex

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/07 19:28:45


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I checked Black Templar Units and saw Emperors Champion dropped 5 points to 80.
Also, and this has to be an Error, Crusader Squad Initiate 15ppm? So basicly Tactical Marines for 15 instead if 18 ppm?
   
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Segmentum Solar, Terra, France

The point costs tables seem to have been turned back to the 5-th 6-th 7-th editions layout : base cost including the basic equipment, then a list of upgrades specific to each unit.
This makes comparisons not trivial.

longtime Guard maniac 
   
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Well with the price increase to inceptors they really screwed over imperial fists again for some reason. The only inceptors that were a problem were the plasma variant. Why didn’t they just increase the cost of those.
   
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Drukhari

Hellions- 17ppm

Reavers- 10ppm

Those had to have been mixed up somewhere lol.

Also plague marines are 18ppm in CSM but 21 in deathguard?

Deathguard also have 5 ppm cultists while T-sons and CSM have 6ppm cultists lol.

My lord, even spreadsheets with points are too large a task to get right I guess...

   
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 Red Corsair wrote:
Drukhari

Hellions- 17ppm

Reavers- 10ppm

Those had to have been mixed up somewhere lol.

Also plague marines are 18ppm in CSM but 21 in deathguard?

Deathguard also have 5 ppm cultists while T-sons and CSM have 6ppm cultists lol.

My lord, even spreadsheets with points are too large a task to get right I guess...


Or if you thought about it you would realise all the DG stuff is correct.
The DG costs are for the NEW codex with 2 wound PMs. Chaos still have 1 wound PMs.
The cultists in DG are likely different from what's in thh current codex. Chances are they are not core, so will lose access to most buffs and strats. You'll just have to wait and see if the pt cheaper is justified.

The DE stuff, looks wrong though
   
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Galveston County

Overall, pretty meh.

Would have been an easy place to also state all marine variants moved up to 2W... but.

No madam, 40,000 is the year that this game is set in. Not how much it costs. Though you may have a point. - GW Fulchester
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Doohicky wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:
Drukhari

Hellions- 17ppm

Reavers- 10ppm

Those had to have been mixed up somewhere lol.

Also plague marines are 18ppm in CSM but 21 in deathguard?

Deathguard also have 5 ppm cultists while T-sons and CSM have 6ppm cultists lol.

My lord, even spreadsheets with points are too large a task to get right I guess...


Or if you thought about it you would realise all the DG stuff is correct.
The DG costs are for the NEW codex with 2 wound PMs. Chaos still have 1 wound PMs.
The cultists in DG are likely different from what's in thh current codex. Chances are they are not core, so will lose access to most buffs and strats. You'll just have to wait and see if the pt cheaper is justified.

The DE stuff, looks wrong though


Or, you know, I did think about it and having two versions for the exact same unit with wildly different rules and stats is moronic.

Also, is Daedalousus for Admech gone?

   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Also, is Daedalousus for Admech gone?
The box he came in is OOP, so I guess he's going to get Lengends'd. Or the person writing that section forgot he existed.

Both are equally possible.

   
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Preacher of the Emperor




Tacoma, WA, USA

bullyboy wrote:Really annoying thing is that this has made the Munitorum manual obsolete unless you want to go through every single hidden points cost (plus layout is different).
Wow. I would never have thought someone would complain that they replaced the "paywall" MFM with a free PDF of the complete points value for all units.

Red Corsair wrote:Also, is Daedalousus for Admech gone?
All the non-Codex, non-Forgeworld units are on Page 52 Miscellaneous. This includes the Daedalousus (no change).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/08 00:17:01


 
   
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 alextroy wrote:
Wow. I would never have thought someone would complain that they replaced the "paywall" MFM with a free PDF of the complete points value for all units.
That's not what he's complaining about.

He's complaining that the thing he paid for has been rendered completely obsolete.

   
Made in us
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Tacoma, WA, USA

By a free update! How dare they do such an outrageous thing. Too bad he didn't get anything else for that money.

Wait. Didn't the MFM come with a still fully functional Chapter Approved Grand Tournament 2020?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/08 00:22:22


 
   
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Florence, KY

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Overall, pretty meh.

Would have been an easy place to also state all marine variants moved up to 2W... but.

From the start GW stated that units would not be updated to two wounds until their 9th edition codex is released. They are sticking to that, for good or bad.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/08 00:51:39


'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
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defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

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 Ghaz wrote:
 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Overall, pretty meh.

Would have been an easy place to also state all marine variants moved up to 2W... but.

From the start GW stated that units would not be updated to two wounds until their 9th edition codex is released. They are sticking to that, for good or bad.

Aye they were clear on that, and I was wondering how they would handle PM's since DG gets their codex first. The answer seems to be: DG gets to enjoy 2W PM's and regular CSM have the 1 wound version for the time being albeit at a slightly reduced cost. Incredibly silly but it is what it is.
   
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Maybe I’m misreading the article but there is, to me, a 0% chance that the MFM update PDF release was intentional.

That was supposed to be a paid-for update that you got either through the app now (driving app purchases) or White Dwarf in a week or two (driving toilet paper purchases).

Someone fethed up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And for the point mismatches?

This was supposed to have launched after the Death Guard AND the Dark Eldar codices were live or at least on pre-order.

Again, someone really, really screwed up.

But we benefit! Yay benefits.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/08 02:41:11


 
   
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Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon





Actually, what im complaining about is that I now have to go online (unless I want to print this monstrosity) to check points, and then compare them to the app points, just to make sure its legal.
I like pen and paper when building lists, this doesn't help. Has absolutely nothing to do with money.
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Latro_ wrote:
Erradicators went up a mere 5pts?

Invader ATV - no change.

stopped bothering reading after that

Glad the big C has stopped me playing 40k... doubt i'd be having much fun on the comp scene (not that i have time for that anyway now!).



No atv res at least


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 mokoshkana wrote:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
 mokoshkana wrote:
I justify by trusting that the developers and play testers (who likely had a pretty big hand in these changes) deemed that they weren't OP.

Do you honestly think it is the army itself that is so broken, or is it merely one of its sub-factions, Soaring Spite? How many of those winning armies used Veiled Path, Dreaming Shadow, Silent Shroud, Midnight Sorrow or Frozen Stars as the main Masque?


Well, the same thing always applies.

Why did Repentia go up a point? Clearly nobody thought Ardent Shroud Repentia are a problem, no?

Why did GW increase the points on the Castellan back in the day? Hawkshroud Castellans never made much of a splash?

Why did GW hike up those Dark Reapers and Shining Spears? Running them as Iyanden never caused anyone harm? Just like those Eldar Flyers never really were a problem outside Alaitoc.

Etc..

And the designers have made mistakes before, so it's prudent to point out mistakes again. That is why they fixed things like Look Out Sir or 55 point GSC Acolytes or Blood Angels getting all their gear for free in early 8th. People made them aware, as even well-meaning designers can miss things.
Back in the day is irrelevant now. They did not use external playtesters prior to 9th edition, so to me it is apples and oranges to compare 9th to what came before it. I don't know anything about sisters or repentia, so I cannot speak to any of that. Having played Harlequins since they dropped in 7th, I can speak to them. As such, you didn't answer my question though. Honestly, what is so broken about the army?


Examples he said were for 8e where they did use externals.

And when playtesters got involved points were already locked and testers were ignored on points


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ravajaxe wrote:
The point costs tables seem to have been turned back to the 5-th 6-th 7-th editions layout : base cost including the basic equipment, then a list of upgrades specific to each unit.
This makes comparisons not trivial.


Not basic(as in default). It's cheapest loadout. Could be one that you have replaced default weapon to cheaper option


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sister players might be in for simulcranum building. Became free. So either another mistake in points or gw sucking as game designers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
Wut? No point hikes for harlequins?

That's the army that needed a heavy nerf the most, lol.


Did lose 2nd 3++ bike unit though

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/01/08 04:01:45


2021 painted/bought: 59/44 
   
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Denison, Iowa

I haven't pulled out my Dark Eldar in quite a while, but I might with the changes. Court of the Archon appears to be a single unit now. Also, Reaver Jetbikes at 10 points per model? Heck yeah, I want to see someone running 36 of those guys up the board (and it still wouldn't be all that many points).
   
 
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